Citizens' assemblies.

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Georgeanna
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Citizens' assemblies.

Post by Georgeanna »

Democracy in Ancient Greece - How should/could/would it work today ?

From:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -sortition

Citizens' assemblies.

'...Sortition has received an increasing amount of attention in recent years, as we seek alternatives to our creaking, gerrymandered and short-sighted electoral processes. The kind of citizens’ assembly called for recently by a number of public figures in the service of breaking the Brexit deadlock has its roots in sortition, involving members of the public, selected at random. This form of assembly has been employed in a number of other countries, most notably in Ireland, which created a citizens’ assembly in 2016 to consider a number of questions. The Irish version consists of 99 complete strangers, selected at random from the electoral roll, who meet over a series of weekends to learn about, debate and vote on contentious issues, such as abortion rights and climate change. And already, the results have been surprising: the citizens’ assembly has been credited with providing the momentum for the legalisation of abortion, and recently voted overwhelmingly for a series of measures to cut greenhouse emissions that politicians had dismissed as unworkable....'

I am not sure how all this works in practice. But it seems to me to be a potential counter to the current situation of 'electoral manipulation by hackers and bots, and when most of the government is having a conversation with itself via broadcast and social media – which is inherently oppositional and destructive'.

Isn't it exciting to consider the alternatives ? Nobody else is coming to save us. Pray as we might...

Views on citizens' assemblies welcome.
Georgeanna
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Re: Citizens' assemblies.

Post by Georgeanna »

Thoughts so far.

I am not sure that I would want a random selection. I would want it be full of sensible people who thought exactly as I do !

Even if a final consensus could be reached, it would still have to be put to a general, country-wide vote and more than likely overturned.


From: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens%27_assembly

Cognitive diversity

'...when selecting problem-solving groups, it may be more important to maximize cognitive diversity over individual competence. For example, scholar Helene Landemore argues that the random selection of representatives rather than election results in increased efficacy, diversity and inclusivity.[30]

In fact, John Stuart Mill famously argued that governing assemblies should be a “fair sample of every grade of intellect among the people” over “a selection of the greatest political minds.” 

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Fooloso4
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Re: Citizens' assemblies.

Post by Fooloso4 »

The Guardian article states with regard to the Irish assembly:
Yet through a careful and deliberate process of education and debate …
In what way were they educated and how was the debate managed? Did the education favor a particular outcome? Did the debate favor particular voices?
Georgeanna
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Re: Citizens' assemblies.

Post by Georgeanna »

Fooloso4 wrote: December 26th, 2018, 12:04 pm The Guardian article states with regard to the Irish assembly:
Yet through a careful and deliberate process of education and debate …
In what way were they educated and how was the debate managed? Did the education favor a particular outcome? Did the debate favor particular voices?
Pertinent questions. I don't know the answers. However, I was a bit surprised at the inclusion of a multiple-choice questionnaire. I do wonder at the depth of discussion. A flavour of the problems in education and bias from : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen ... _(Ireland)

' The assembly's inaugural meeting decided that the abortion issue would be the topic for its first four working meetings,[19] a number later increased to five.[34] An advisory group of five experts was appointed: a medical lawyer, two constitutional lawyers, and two obstetricians.[19]

The chairperson said she would investigate claims that an assembly member had publicly expressed pro-choice views on Twitter.[19][35] 

In the Dáil, Mattie McGrath complained that two of the five experts had previously expressed dissatisfaction with the existing abortion provisions.[36]'

There is bound to be subjective opinion. As to how it was managed - that would be interesting to discover....
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Sy Borg
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Re: Citizens' assemblies.

Post by Sy Borg »

It seems like a good idea, but I can easily imagine politicians, especially those of the emerging (and supremely self-entitled) hard right movement, finding a way to game the system.
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Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
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Re: Citizens' assemblies.

Post by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes »

One way to mitigate the risks while gaining most of the benefits could be to add the Citizen Assembly as a second or third house of the legislative branch.

For instance, at the national level in the USA, it could be that after a bill is approved in the US House of Representatives and the US Senate it is then given to a Citizen Assembly for approval, essentially giving the Citizen Assembly power of veto similar to what the President has.

It's harder for me to imagine jury-duty-style citizens doing all the actual work that goes into crafting, debating, and modifying bills, especially without leaving even more room for corruption than with elected volunteers.
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
Gertie
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Re: Citizens' assemblies.

Post by Gertie »

I am not sure that I would want a random selection. I would want it be full of sensible people who thought exactly as I do !
haha ditto.

Public consultation (particularly with affected groups) usually plays a role in government policy making (and in the UK we have the House of Lords revising chamber as a usefulish input of expertise and emergency temporary veto). But as we know politics involves much more powerful pressures than listening to people who have to deal with the impact of policies. Which is fair enough, governments are elected on a manifesto.

On the other hand having been involved in a minor way with attempts to devolve local democracy, there are dangers in handing over power to people either without a stake in particular areas, or with a particular biased stake. Decision makers should hopefully be people with aptitude and training to look at the big picture and weigh competing needs. And also need to create coherent and budgeted overal strategies, rather than simply assembling a bunch of sometimes contradictory aims.

Does a random but informed group get the best of both worlds? Potentially. I can see similarities to Rawles' Veil of Ignorance if done well. And I can see governments benefitting on issues like climate change, by being given 'cover' on unpopular but necessary policies, or ones which require short term sacrifice for long-term gain. People tend to vote for their own short term narrow interests, and it's too tempting for parties to promise jam today. Our fairly comfortable me-me-me/instant gratification culture doesn't help there. We've lost the patient stoicism of hard times, and bought into the Modernist vision of an ever improving and controllable future, and the associated trust in capitalism to provide for all our wants and take care all the problems. That Modernist vision is crashing into reality now (globalism and climate change are obvious huge challenges), and Post-Modernism is more of an analysis than a useful answer, so we're in uncertain times. It's good to look to benign alternatives, as there are malignant ones gaining ground.

But ultimately I want a democratically elected government in charge. It's the worst alternative except all the others, and it provides stability via the democratic mandate.
Gertie
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Re: Citizens' assemblies.

Post by Gertie »

PS on an issue like abortion, or others which might be considered 'human rights' issues, I think there needs to be some inbuilt protection which isn't vulnerable to politics, opinion or even the democratic 'tyranny of the majority'. An under-girding of basic rights should be fundamental to any governmental system imo.
Eduk
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Re: Citizens' assemblies.

Post by Eduk »

Reminds me of the idea that promoting at random in companies would work better than current systems.
Unknown means unknown.
barata
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Re: Citizens' assemblies.

Post by barata »

Gertie wrote: December 28th, 2018, 5:53 pm PS on an issue like abortion, or others which might be considered 'human rights' issues, I think there needs to be some inbuilt protection which isn't vulnerable to politics, opinion or even the democratic 'tyranny of the majority'. An under-girding of basic rights should be fundamental to any governmental system imo.
very informative!
Steve3007
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Re: Citizens' assemblies.

Post by Steve3007 »

Scott wrote:For instance, at the national level in the USA, it could be that after a bill is approved in the US House of Representatives and the US Senate it is then given to a Citizen Assembly for approval, essentially giving the Citizen Assembly power of veto similar to what the President has.
The trouble with the power of veto is that it can only ever reduce, not increase, the number of bills that are passed into law. I suspect that this power of veto by the Citizen Assembly might result in no new laws ever being passed. You can't please all the people all the time.
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Felix
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Re: Citizens' assemblies.

Post by Felix »

Gertie: on an issue like abortion, or others which might be considered 'human rights' issues, I think there needs to be some inbuilt protection which isn't vulnerable to politics, opinion or even the democratic 'tyranny of the majority'.
So you want to take political sentiments out of politics? Good luck with that....
Gertie: An under-girding of basic rights should be fundamental to any governmental system imo.
Problem is, most people seem to think that personal or cultural opinion dictates which human rights are primary or even human (e.g., "the rights of the unborn child"). When I started a thread in this forum that refuted that idea, most respondents disagreed with me.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Gertie
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Re: Citizens' assemblies.

Post by Gertie »

Felix wrote: December 31st, 2018, 5:48 pm
Gertie: on an issue like abortion, or others which might be considered 'human rights' issues, I think there needs to be some inbuilt protection which isn't vulnerable to politics, opinion or even the democratic 'tyranny of the majority'.
So you want to take political sentiments out of politics? Good luck with that....
Gertie: An under-girding of basic rights should be fundamental to any governmental system imo.
Problem is, most people seem to think that personal or cultural opinion dictates which human rights are primary or even human (e.g., "the rights of the unborn child"). When I started a thread in this forum that refuted that idea, most respondents disagreed with me.
Politics is a human construction, it will inevitably be messy and imperfect. Human Rights as conceived and implemented will be too. Never-the-less it can be a good thing, and even international treaties can be agreed.
Eduk
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Re: Citizens' assemblies.

Post by Eduk »

But ultimately I want a democratically elected government in charge. It's the worst alternative except all the others, and it provides stability via the democratic mandate.
It's the best known form of government which has been tried. As to whether it is the actual best is currently unknown.
After all what you want is this
Decision makers should hopefully be people with aptitude and training to look at the big picture and weigh competing needs.
Which demonstrably hasn't happened under democracy.
Unknown means unknown.
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