The private and public self

[Belindi]

h_k_s wrote:

The "totalitarian mind police" will always exist and will always consist of parents, teachers, preachers, advertising, the media, government, and employers. Good luck escaping all that.

Don't want or need to escape it. If some hypothetical individual was tabula rasa he could have no basis for comparisons, he'd not be a subject who owns ideas. If all individuals were tabulas rasas social life would stand still and there could no search for god or truth or anything.

[LuckyR]

h_k_s wrote:

The "totalitarian mind police" will always exist and will always consist of parents, teachers, preachers, advertising, the media, government, and employers. Good luck escaping all that.

Don't want or need to escape it. If some hypothetical individual was tabula rasa he could have no basis for comparisons, he'd not be a subject who owns ideas. If all individuals were tabulas rasas social life would stand still and there could no search for god or truth or anything.

Can't wait to observe the parent who doesn't want to pass along their accumulated wisdom from their personal experience.

[Palumboism]

Am I not simply history ventriloquiaing through me? What part can I identity that is the me independent of all else?

Is that what Kierkegaard would say? I am not a unique free thinking individual. I am simply a member of the herd ventriloquianing history.

[Sy Borg]

Am I not simply history ventriloquiaing through me? What part can I identity that is the me independent of all else?

Is that what Kierkegaard would say? I am not a unique free thinking individual. I am simply a member of the herd ventriloquianing history.

Consider the kind of person you would be if you were if you were raised by animals, away from your culture https://theconversation.com/real-life-j ... tion-59338

What of "you" today would be present in a version of "you" raised without human culture?

[chewybrian]

Is that what Kierkegaard would say? I am not a unique free thinking individual. I am simply a member of the herd ventriloquianing history.

Consider the kind of person you would be if you were if you were raised by animals, away from your culture https://theconversation.com/real-life-j ... tion-59338

What of "you" today would be present in a version of "you" raised without human culture?

But, you don't have to be fully disconnected from your culture to be an independent agent with a free will. You only have to make one decision on your own throughout your entire lifetime. If you have done this, then you are not a muppet of the past. Then, it is only a matter of how often and to what extent you exert your own will. Just because it's hard to do doesn't mean you can not do it.

[Sy Borg]

Consider the kind of person you would be if you were if you were raised by animals, away from your culture https://theconversation.com/real-life-j ... tion-59338

What of "you" today would be present in a version of "you" raised without human culture?

But, you don't have to be fully disconnected from your culture to be an independent agent with a free will. You only have to make one decision on your own throughout your entire lifetime. If you have done this, then you are not a muppet of the past. Then, it is only a matter of how often and to what extent you exert your own will. Just because it's hard to do doesn't mean you can not do it.

Oh, I think "muppet" is a tough term :)

In my experience, whenever I have asserted free will, if I trace it back, I am reflecting my genetics, conditioning or culture. My genetics are, of course, really just stored conditioning from the past. Yet I value being free to reflect my genetics, conditioning and culture in my own way, which will necessarily be unique in each instance.

Think of it like pop music. Everything is a ripoff of something if you look back far enough, yet every track has its own individual flavour because every event in space and time is unique, even when economic rationalists in the music industry try to impose conformity. When conformity is attempted, the individuality simply becomes more subtle - but the uniqueness is always there.

[Belindi]

Consider the kind of person you would be if you were if you were raised by animals, away from your culture https://theconversation.com/real-life-j ... tion-59338

What of "you" today would be present in a version of "you" raised without human culture?

But, you don't have to be fully disconnected from your culture to be an independent agent with a free will. You only have to make one decision on your own throughout your entire lifetime. If you have done this, then you are not a muppet of the past. Then, it is only a matter of how often and to what extent you exert your own will. Just because it's hard to do doesn't mean you can not do it.

I agree with chewybrian except I dislike that use of the term 'free will' I'd call it human creativity,or imagination, not free will. I'd add that even the Wild Boy of Aveyron was not disconnected from a culture as he had been acculturated by wolves.

If other animals used could use language based upon metaphors/symbols then other animals would be as creative as we are.

At this point in the discussion it would be useful to consider the difference between free and repressive political regimes. Political or ideological regimes can and do affect the creativity and imagination of individuals.

[Sculptor1]

But, you don't have to be fully disconnected from your culture to be an independent agent with a free will. You only have to make one decision on your own throughout your entire lifetime. If you have done this, then you are not a muppet of the past. Then, it is only a matter of how often and to what extent you exert your own will. Just because it's hard to do doesn't mean you can not do it.

I agree with chewybrian except I dislike that use of the term 'free will' I'd call it human creativity,or imagination, not free will. I'd add that even the Wild Boy of Aveyron was not disconnected from a culture as he had been acculturated by wolves.

If other animals used could use language based upon metaphors/symbols then other animals would be as creative as we are.

At this point in the discussion it would be useful to consider the difference between free and repressive political regimes. Political or ideological regimes can and do affect the creativity and imagination of individuals.

Free will, creativity, inspiration, intuition - call it what you will. There are many determining factors, which go into the mix of an individual, many aspects of volition, needs, wants, circumstances. What comes out the other side from influence to human action is less predictable than an entire universe of stars since the interconnected ness of the brain's multiplicity of neurones and hormones and god knows what else causes unpredictable and sometimes counter cultural actions. All of this makes perfect sense to the determinist.
By and large humans tend to "do the right thing", or "comply" with the norms, but there is a continual tension between the needs and urgency of the public realm and that of the individual which causes a conflict with self interest, and interests of the sub-culture, or party.
We are not all free individuals as much as we might like to think. We are effectively acculturated by society. But of that were perfect, then sociey would be cold and static. This is rare and often relagated to small scale societies. Critical density is as important as the types of cultural norms and myths upon which society is based, in the degree of potential societal change.
Even the most apparently repressive regimes have witnessed massive changes in the last 100 years. I'd argue that Chinese culture has changed far more than America in the last 100 years. It has moved from a feudal society in constant internal conflict; through the communists revolutions and in the last 30 years there is no more massively changed culture anywhere on earth. ALL this change has come through from the actions of individuals, as no other method is possible. Society is in our heads.

[LuckyR]

I agree with chewybrian except I dislike that use of the term 'free will' I'd call it human creativity,or imagination, not free will. I'd add that even the Wild Boy of Aveyron was not disconnected from a culture as he had been acculturated by wolves.

If other animals used could use language based upon metaphors/symbols then other animals would be as creative as we are.

At this point in the discussion it would be useful to consider the difference between free and repressive political regimes. Political or ideological regimes can and do affect the creativity and imagination of individuals.

Free will, creativity, inspiration, intuition - call it what you will. There are many determining factors, which go into the mix of an individual, many aspects of volition, needs, wants, circumstances. What comes out the other side from influence to human action is less predictable than an entire universe of stars since the interconnected ness of the brain's multiplicity of neurones and hormones and god knows what else causes unpredictable and sometimes counter cultural actions. All of this makes perfect sense to the determinist.
By and large humans tend to "do the right thing", or "comply" with the norms, but there is a continual tension between the needs and urgency of the public realm and that of the individual which causes a conflict with self interest, and interests of the sub-culture, or party.
We are not all free individuals as much as we might like to think. We are effectively acculturated by society. But of that were perfect, then sociey would be cold and static. This is rare and often relagated to small scale societies. Critical density is as important as the types of cultural norms and myths upon which society is based, in the degree of potential societal change.
Even the most apparently repressive regimes have witnessed massive changes in the last 100 years. I'd argue that Chinese culture has changed far more than America in the last 100 years. It has moved from a feudal society in constant internal conflict; through the communists revolutions and in the last 30 years there is no more massively changed culture anywhere on earth. ALL this change has come through from the actions of individuals, as no other method is possible. Society is in our heads.

If only that were true. I don't disagree with your excellent summary, but many "determinists" would, in my experience.

[Belindi]

Free will, creativity, inspiration, intuition - call it what you will. There are many determining factors, which go into the mix of an individual, many aspects of volition, needs, wants, circumstances. What comes out the other side from influence to human action is less predictable than an entire universe of stars since the interconnected ness of the brain's multiplicity of neurones and hormones and god knows what else causes unpredictable and sometimes counter cultural actions. All of this makes perfect sense to the determinist.
By and large humans tend to "do the right thing", or "comply" with the norms, but there is a continual tension between the needs and urgency of the public realm and that of the individual which causes a conflict with self interest, and interests of the sub-culture, or party.
We are not all free individuals as much as we might like to think. We are effectively acculturated by society. But of that were perfect, then sociey would be cold and static. This is rare and often relagated to small scale societies. Critical density is as important as the types of cultural norms and myths upon which society is based, in the degree of potential societal change.
Even the most apparently repressive regimes have witnessed massive changes in the last 100 years. I'd argue that Chinese culture has changed far more than America in the last 100 years. It has moved from a feudal society in constant internal conflict; through the communists revolutions and in the last 30 years there is no more massively changed culture anywhere on earth. ALL this change has come through from the actions of individuals, as no other method is possible. Society is in our heads.

If only that were true. I don't disagree with your excellent summary, but many "determinists" would, in my experience.

People of goodwill are watching events in Oregon. Lucky.

A minor point. I withdraw my comment about the Wild Boy of Aveyron. I was too hasty and was probably quite wrong. The opposite is possibly true, that this boy was abandoned by parents and may have been autistic. So this poor boy may have just barely survived without the nurture of any culture at all.

[LuckyR]

If only that were true. I don't disagree with your excellent summary, but many "determinists" would, in my experience.

People of goodwill are watching events in Oregon. Lucky.

A minor point. I withdraw my comment about the Wild Boy of Aveyron. I was too hasty and was probably quite wrong. The opposite is possibly true, that this boy was abandoned by parents and may have been autistic. So this poor boy may have just barely survived without the nurture of any culture at all.

Thanks for the back up. Never thought lil' Beirut would be someone's idea of an easy city to occupy.