Hong Kong and China

[chewybrian]

Do you think the protestors are hurting their own cause by continually engaging in destructive vandalism? It seems they are goading the Chinese government to do something, can't see how that is wise.

I do, but I also understand their anger and frustration and why it would boil over. Also, I believe the other side places people in with the protesters to encourage them to act up, and even to engage in some of these acts and blame the protesters. This tactic is as old as tyranny itself.

He said the group was particularly concerned by the use of undercover officers for the first time, who later turned on protesters on Sunday night. He said it was unclear if they may have acted as agitators before making mass arrests.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... ark-outcry

And, 'allegedly', the police allowed the triad gang members to attack the protesters without trying to intervene to stop the violence.

Media in Hong Kong have released footage of masked men in white shirts beating black-clad protesters with sticks in a subway station and on public transit. The protesters attempted to defend themselves with umbrellas.


Passengers said police did not intervene in the attacks by the men. On Saturday, demonstrators wore white at a counter-rally in support of police.

Hong Kong’s opposition Democratic Party is investigating the attacks amid suspicion that triad gangsters were involved. Democratic Party lawmaker Lam Cheuk-ting, who was injured in the attack, said police had let the triads run rampant.

https://thewire.in/world/hong-kong-mask ... ith-sticks

I think the protesters could get their message across better by taking the high road, taking the path laid out by MLK. But, it may be too late to go back now.

[Sy Borg]

Felix, that has confused me too. It seems to me that they have lost hope entirely, so now they are deliberately trying to goad China. If China brings in the tanks, the global political ramifications will be severe, which is why they haven't simply crushed them a la Tiananmen Square.

Still, I am trying to understand the protesters' endgame. Many seem to have decided that they are ready to die because, if China takes control, then they will spend countless hours scouring video footage and hunt them down. I suspect that the only way they can win is to, individually, be prepared to die, which is a nightmarish situation.

[chewybrian]

Below is a perfect example of why the people in Hong Kong are fighting so hard about a simple extradition treaty. Would U.S. citizens be upset if an extradition treaty was proposed to allow Canada to bring people accused of crimes back for trial? Would we even be aware if such a law was proposed and passed? The difference is that both societies are open, transparent, and provide basic rights like the right to counsel and a free press. But, people in Hong Kong are well aware that the treatment described, and more, awaits anyone who dares to hold and express an opinion contrary to the party line. Charges can be made up, and 'confessions' forced by torture until the lie effectively becomes the truth, a la 1984.

“Rather than finding the truth,” he wrote, “the interrogations are more likely to fulfill and prove their pre-written play by filling in the information they want from the detainees.”

An employee of the U.K. consulate in Hong Kong was detained on a business trip to China, charged with prostitution, and tortured and threatened to force a confession to the crime and to try to get information from him about possible British complicity in the Hong Kong 'riots'...

("allegedly"...)

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/20/worl ... cheng.html

For most of the 15-day detention period, Mr. Cheng said he was held in solitary confinement and not allowed to contact relatives or lawyers. His glasses were confiscated. Under threat of violence, he gave up his iPhone password and confessed to soliciting prostitution.

The harshest interrogations took place outside the detention center, where Mr. Cheng said he was handcuffed, shackled, blindfolded and hooded and driven to a secluded place.

When he realized torture was a possibility, Mr. Cheng wrote, he told the officers, “I will confess whatever you want, torture is not necessary.”

“They said it is not torture but ‘training’,” he added.

Mr. Cheng said he was hung for hours in a spread-eagle pose. He was beaten to keep him awake. If he dozed off, he was forced to sing the Chinese national anthem.

[Felix]

Judging by Donald Trumps comments about Hong Kong today, he'd be more than willing to overlook China's human rights violations if it will help him make a trade deal with them (not surprising since he's done that with Saudi Arabia, et.al.). Fortunately, the U.S. Congress unanimously approved the "Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act" last week, so Trump won't be able to veto it as he did the bill that sanctioned the Saudis, which would've stymied his plans to sell them billions of dollars of military arms.

[chewybrian]

Judging by Donald Trumps comments about Hong Kong today, he'd be more than willing to overlook China's human rights violations if it will help him make a trade deal with them (not surprising since he's done that with Saudi Arabia, et.al.). Fortunately, the U.S. Congress unanimously approved the "Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act" last week, so Trump won't be able to veto it as he did the bill that sanctioned the Saudis, which would've stymied his plans to sell them billions of dollars of military arms.

There is always going to be some selfish people willing to cause untold suffering to advance their own wealth, or some other agenda. What upsets me worse is the apathy among the rest of us. Where are the street protests here in the U.S.? Where are the widespread boycotts of China?

At least we got this bill passed to show where we stand, I suppose. It seems like we could do so much more, but we'd rather not rock the boat of our own economy to stand up for human rights, in China or anywhere else. In the case of Saudi Arabia and the rest, it is a moral failure on our part. In the case of China, it may be life and death for us in the end. They are plugging along with their plan, part of which is to take advantage of our greed. And, we have our 'plan', which seems to be living as far beyond our means as we can for as long as we can.

[Felix]

Xi Jinping seems to be out of touch with reality, he was very surprised by the results of the recent Hong Kong election, and he won't allow Chinese media to report on it. Apparently the tin-pot dictator believes his own propaganda.

[Jklint]

There is always going to be some selfish people willing to cause untold suffering to advance their own wealth, or some other agenda. What upsets me worse is the apathy among the rest of us. Where are the street protests here in the U.S.? Where are the widespread boycotts of China?

All fair questions but based on the Realpolitik of greed and its economic underpinnings humans rights have always been in full retreat with nothing more than mild sanctimonious reactions to declare disagreement and so prove the virtues of our more enlightened system. These are simply viewed as doctrinal disputes never approaching anything fundamental which preempts the usual mindset of business as usual. The environment itself is subordinate to the powers that be in the economic realm compared to which the insurrections in HK is not even a footnote.

[Ralfy]

From "Trump signs Hong Kong bills; Beijing vows retaliation: Now what?":

The territory is a major destination for U.S. legal and accounting services and in 2018 the largest U.S. bilateral trade-in-goods surplus was with Hong Kong at $31.1 billion.

Trade between Hong Kong and the United States was estimated to be worth $67.3 billion in 2018, with the United States running a $33.8 billion surplus - its biggest with any country or territory, according to the Office of the U.S. Trade Representative.

[chewybrian]

This has been a cold topic considering what has been happening, but it is the end now for any pretense of freedom with the recently enacted

"security" "law".

There seems to be little effective difference at this point between living in China or Hong Kong. It is chilling that the CCP thinks they can arrest or extradite people in other countries with citizenship in those countries for nothing more than voicing their opinions. Many of those wanted on foreign soil got out when they saw this coming. This man in the link bravely stayed and now he's an "un-person"...

https://news.yahoo.com/hong-kong-pro-de ... 15199.html

The video is not directly related to that story, but if you ever read 1984, you should be terrified or repulsed by this real life version happening right now as we do less than nothing about it...

[Papus79]

An interesting article I just read in The Atlantic on Chinese surveillance technology, it's use on the Uighur, etc..

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... QA8xT81QLc

[chewybrian]

An interesting article I just read in The Atlantic on Chinese surveillance technology, it's use on the Uighur, etc..

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... QA8xT81QLc

It's getting harder by the day to find hyperbole to describe how dangerous this regime is to all of us. Each time I think I've seen the worst, I see that it is only the beginning. They are simply Nazis with better technology and better PR, and more willing dupes throughout the world willing to let them carry on until it is, potentially, too late to fight them on even terms. They are already fighting WWIII, and we are assisting them by putting short term greed ahead of any reasonable concern for the future of man. (And if you think I found the hyperbole, read the article and then see if you think we are on the right path in dealing with China)

[Papus79]

It's getting harder by the day to find hyperbole to describe how dangerous this regime is to all of us. Each time I think I've seen the worst, I see that it is only the beginning. They are simply Nazis with better technology and better PR, and more willing dupes throughout the world willing to let them carry on until it is, potentially, too late to fight them on even terms. They are already fighting WWIII, and we are assisting them by putting short term greed ahead of any reasonable concern for the future of man. (And if you think I found the hyperbole, read the article and then see if you think we are on the right path in dealing with China)

What's worse - if people ever think that it would be wonderful if we could 'all just get along' and that humanity could be as close-knit and cooperative as a single human body - this sort of perfect techno-dictatorship where you don't even have the privacy of your own thoughts is the best analogy to what that would look like in practice. The police and intelligence agencies would be akin to the white cells and immune system.

[chewybrian]

So, they are retroactively labeling people as "inciting succession" for things they said prior to the enactment of the new security law. Does anyone think it is OK for a government to pass laws that punish people retroactively for actions taken that were not illegal when they were taken? Seriously?

What has to happen before the world says this is not right?

These journalists are facing up to life in prison for starters. But, when you see what happens to the Uighurs, it is not hard to imagine that worse things will happen to these people and their families. Say something, at least, if you can not do something about it. Think twice about buying from China, maybe. Get a little upset, maybe.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-11/ ... s/12544476

People are being purged for thought crime, and the world is mostly silent.

[Sy Borg]

An interesting article I just read in The Atlantic on Chinese surveillance technology, it's use on the Uighur, etc..

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... QA8xT81QLc

It's getting harder by the day to find hyperbole to describe how dangerous this regime is to all of us. Each time I think I've seen the worst, I see that it is only the beginning. They are simply Nazis with better technology and better PR, and more willing dupes throughout the world willing to let them carry on until it is, potentially, too late to fight them on even terms.

The CCP has never changed. They pretended to change for about twenty years to dupe the west into trusting them, but they never budged. The Tiananmen Square massacre perpetrated upon innocent protesters made the situation crystal clear. China's "opening up" was a ruse, a lie. The CCP never for a moment considered democracy - or any system even approaching democracy - as an option. People have always disappeared and become unpersons under the CCP. The fascistic communism of Russia and China was Orwell's model in writing 1984.

So China is the same as ever. SNAFU. They have always engaged in Trumpian lying - about everything - because, like Trump, they are obsessed with image. With superficial impressions. At no point was the CCP ever going to honour the agreement with the UK over HK. The only surprise is how slowly they have been killing HK people off. Without the world watching, huge numbers would have already been massacred.

Given that China is simply continuing to be the bad actor globally that it has always been, the issue here lies with the US, which so meekly surrendered global leadership and dissolved long-standing partnerships (as required by Putin, who clearly has enough dirt on Trump to control him). I see the Iraq invasion as the catalyst for today's events, along with Trump's corruption. Without those issues, the US may have been wealthy and respected enough to keep China in check.

[chewybrian]

Without those issues, the US may have been wealthy and respected enough to keep China in check.

There is the very weapon that China is using against us. We never believe we are wealthy enough. The elite that control the politicians seek only to expand their wealth, at whatever cost is necessary (with a few exceptions, perhaps, like Buffet or Gates).

This is our Achille's heel. Anyone can use and abuse us by simply appealing to the bottom line. The wealthy don't really care about human rights or the environment. If they can get a better return by trading American jobs for prison labor in China, they are keen to do it. Relocating to China allows them to pollute, avoid pesky labor laws, copyright laws, worker safety, and every other little nuisance that chips away at profits here in the states.

China is trying to create for themselves the situation found in America after WWII. By sucking in all the world's manufacturing, they will become (virtually) the sole source of manufacturing for the world. At the same time, they continue to buy up our debt, which allows them to suck wealth out of our country, while at the same time reducing the foundation of our economy to a house of cards. They are willing to hold more det than they rationally should, because investing is not the goal; war is the goal.

Someday, when they believe they have amassed the right amount of economic and military might, a pretense will arise. It might be about Taiwan, or trade, or who knows. They will then play their "Trump" card (pun intended), and call in the debt. We will be ruined, or we will decide that we can not pay it. They will either buy up or nationalize all the factories we have built there, and seal themselves off from the west, which will not have enough manufacturing capacity to keep up, nor the economic might to ramp up. They will be the super power, and we will be a bigger version of England, a 'once great' nation.

At that point, they can push into whatever places they want, without a realistic threat of consequences from the west, as our declaring war upon them might amount to suicide.