Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

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Terrapin Station
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Re: Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

Post by Terrapin Station »

gad-fly wrote: April 1st, 2020, 11:42 am Nevertheless, most of the offers to help other countries develop and recover stem from self interest. The Silk Road iss no exception. These offers, whether dressed as charity or not . . .
That need not be a problem, and rather can be beneficially exploited, so long as we set up a system where the actions "dressed as charity" need to be sustained in order for one to be in an advantageous-to-oneself position.

In other words, what does it matter that someone is helping someone else for their own personal gain, as long as they need to keep helping others and not putting them at a disadvantage or not pulling the rug from beneath anyone else in order to achieve that personal gain?

The problem is that we haven't set up a system to exploit this yet. If we set up such a system, then we still have avenues for greed and selfishness, so we're not unrealistically trying to get rid of those human tendencies, but we make it so that greed and selfishness can only be satiated by helping others and making their lives better.
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Re: Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

Post by gad-fly »

Terrapin Station wrote: April 1st, 2020, 2:15 pm
The problem is that we haven't set up a system to exploit this yet. If we set up such a system, then we still have avenues for greed and selfishness, so we're not unrealistically trying to get rid of those human tendencies, but we make it so that greed and selfishness can only be satiated by helping others and making their lives better.
Setting up the alleged system is outside the purview of this thread. Nevertheless, I would listen to what you can say.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

Post by Sy Borg »

gad-fly wrote: April 1st, 2020, 11:42 am
Greta wrote: March 31st, 2020, 2:32 am
However, seeing the dishonest toxicity on display by the US, China and Russia, separation and greater independence might be safer for smaller nations than accepting their poisoned offers to "help".
I take you to recommend distancing on the Global Village between developed and developing countries. This political distancing may be said to copy social distancing between individuals as advocated in the present pandemic. It cannot be denied that some international aids programs, like the Marshall Plan, are genuine self-depleting offers to help other countries in distress. It may be said that the US also receive benefit from the Marshall Plan by helping Europe and hence the world economy recover.

Nevertheless, most of the offers to help other countries develop and recover stem from self interest. The Silk Road iss no exception. These offers, whether dressed as charity or not, would benefit more who has more bargaining power, like in a buyers or sellers market. Yes, it can even be sweeten poison.

I believe distancing on the Global Village will be the trend and, to some reasonable degree, the right course to follow. Produce more locally, travel more locally, rely more on yourself, accept and welcome diversity. Different living standard between countries is fine, as long as each is satisfied. Let hundreds of flowers bloom.
As with any other species, there are limits to how many humans can congregate and remain happy. After a certain size, we increasingly only achieve order by denying freedom of speech, movement, association and action to individuals (who are not part of the corrupt power cliques, of course). The dynamic is still in play, of course.

Very large and crowded societies - while being ghastly for most citizens - always win the battle of group selection (natural selection for groups). The larger, more crowded, aggressive and disease-ridden a nation, the more successful it will be in destroying or assimilating the competition. For examples, look at how colonialism transpired in prior centuries.

Thus, the types of society selected - the only ones ultimately capable of defending themselves - will ever more be the worst societies in which ordinary people can live and grow.

If you feel like it is impossible to get or do anything of value without struggling against hordes of others wanting the same thing, then your society is probably well suited to survive. If life is sweet, with plenty of leisure time, freedom, safety and the chance to think about the big questions of life, then your society is on borrowed time.

Humans are no more the architects of their fate than any other species. While individual humans are capable of some (ostensible) freedom, en masse, we have been led by the nose without even the slightest choice - just like any other species. And we have been led by evolution and group selection into forming societies that treat us poorly.
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Re: Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

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Well, it is interesting to observe that the world can exist quite nicely without professional (or college) sports and that a world without celebrities is not only possible, but preferable.
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Re: Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

Post by gad-fly »

Greta wrote: April 1st, 2020, 3:02 pm
Very large and crowded societies - while being ghastly for most citizens - always win the battle of group selection (natural selection for groups). The larger, more crowded, aggressive and disease-ridden a nation, the more successful it will be in destroying or assimilating the competition. For examples, look at how colonialism transpired in prior centuries.

Humans are no more the architects of their fate than any other species. While individual humans are capable of some (ostensible) freedom, en masse, we have been led by the nose without even the slightest choice - just like any other species. And we have been led by evolution and group selection into forming societies that treat us poorly.
If the Global Village is to decompose into multiple local-specific villages, thriving on locally more than globally accessible satisfaction, what do you think should be the proper size of each? Please paint like an architect, leading rather than be led by the nose.
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Re: Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

Post by Sy Borg »

gad-fly wrote: April 1st, 2020, 5:53 pm
Greta wrote: April 1st, 2020, 3:02 pm
Very large and crowded societies - while being ghastly for most citizens - always win the battle of group selection (natural selection for groups). The larger, more crowded, aggressive and disease-ridden a nation, the more successful it will be in destroying or assimilating the competition. For examples, look at how colonialism transpired in prior centuries.

Humans are no more the architects of their fate than any other species. While individual humans are capable of some (ostensible) freedom, en masse, we have been led by the nose without even the slightest choice - just like any other species. And we have been led by evolution and group selection into forming societies that treat us poorly.
If the Global Village is to decompose into multiple local-specific villages, thriving on locally more than globally accessible satisfaction, what do you think should be the proper size of each? Please paint like an architect, leading rather than be led by the nose.
It would be nice to control it, but that is not possible. Models are attempted and they either compete or they fall away.

If the ultra-wealthy continue to increase their percentage of ownership, and the current economic depression will greatly accelerate that process, then they will increasingly just do business with each other and decouple from the masses. This is already happening, with many no longer having to pay tax and using those savings to buy up their own shares, essentially turning public companies back into private ones.

They will be the "humans" holding the vast majority of the world's wealth, progressing technologically at ever faster rates while the rest of us will be forced into the same role that animals took before we wiped most of them out, ie. largely either resources or vermin.

So there will two types of societies. Fortified estates in the best territory, with fiercely protected agriculture, and strike drones in case of trouble. And around them will be suburbs with crumbling infrastructure (because the "humans" will have taken most resources), ever more afflicted by overcrowding, disease, shortages, harsh weather and pollution.

In a way it is poetic justice. People will find out how animals would have felt when humans took over, and possibly better understand the subjugation we still impose on them. Because that is what is coming our way.
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Re: Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

Post by h_k_s »

Steve3007 wrote: March 31st, 2020, 9:10 am
h_k_s wrote:China has been infecting the world with viruses for decades, ever since it industrialized and began facilitating international travel to and from China. This was true in 1918 as well.
There is some evidence that the 1918 flu originated in the US, possibly Kansas. But it is by no means certain.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC340389/

It was sometimes called "Spanish Flu" simply because of the restrictions on reporting in the rest of WWI Europe, but not Spain, and the fact that, having infected Spanish royalty, it gained wide publicity there.

Does it matter? Should it have been called "American flu"? Should the world have accused the US of spreading disease back then? Or maybe accused Spain? No.

An international blame game, such as those that Trump is most comfortable indulging in, as are you apparently, is a lose-lose game. It is at times like this, more than at any other time, that we learn the meaning and power of the concepts of society and cooperation, both intra and internationally.
The 1918 flu most likely originated in China. But it may have originated anywhere, although from the USA is completely unlikely if not impossible because the conditions for it to spawn here in the USA do not exist.
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Re: Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

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Pattern-chaser wrote: March 31st, 2020, 8:28 am
h_k_s wrote: March 30th, 2020, 10:58 pm China has been infecting the world with viruses for decades...
Your words seem to indicate that the people or the state of China do this deliberately. I think diseases like CoViD-19 are created independently of humanity and human activities. They mutate. I don't think it helps to cast blame, and I don't think it's any more accurate than claims in the Middle Ages of witches infecting local cattle with disease.
China's social and environmental conditions make it a natural breeding ground for viruses of all kinds.

From China these diseases then spread all over the globe.

China needs to be quarantined from any further interaction with the rest of the world, and travel to and from China must be stopped, until China has eradicated these cesspools of disease from within China's midst. This requirement has been overlook for the past 100 years and longer. But this latest virus infection which has grown to pandemic proportions may have finally spurred the rest of the world to act in a unified manner against China. Let's hope so.
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Re: Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

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Greta wrote: March 31st, 2020, 6:36 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: March 31st, 2020, 9:35 am My friend, who lives in ShenZhen, China, says otherwise.
While wet markets are still allowed to operate (and they are), China can fairly be said to not be taking the threat seriously.
I assume your mention of wet markets indicates a fear that the virus can somehow re-emerge? I think, like Pandora's box, the virus can only be released once. Or perhaps you mean something else? 🤔
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Re: Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

Post by LuckyR »

h_k_s wrote: April 2nd, 2020, 10:10 am
Steve3007 wrote: March 31st, 2020, 9:10 am

There is some evidence that the 1918 flu originated in the US, possibly Kansas. But it is by no means certain.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC340389/

It was sometimes called "Spanish Flu" simply because of the restrictions on reporting in the rest of WWI Europe, but not Spain, and the fact that, having infected Spanish royalty, it gained wide publicity there.

Does it matter? Should it have been called "American flu"? Should the world have accused the US of spreading disease back then? Or maybe accused Spain? No.

An international blame game, such as those that Trump is most comfortable indulging in, as are you apparently, is a lose-lose game. It is at times like this, more than at any other time, that we learn the meaning and power of the concepts of society and cooperation, both intra and internationally.
The 1918 flu most likely originated in China. But it may have originated anywhere, although from the USA is completely unlikely if not impossible because the conditions for it to spawn here in the USA do not exist.
So you're disputing the article cited in the post you quoted with what? Your personal opinion?
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Re: Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

Post by Sy Borg »

Pattern-chaser wrote: April 2nd, 2020, 1:33 pm
Greta wrote: March 31st, 2020, 6:36 pm
While wet markets are still allowed to operate (and they are), China can fairly be said to not be taking the threat seriously.
I assume your mention of wet markets indicates a fear that the virus can somehow re-emerge? I think, like Pandora's box, the virus can only be released once. Or perhaps you mean something else? 🤔
This is the second SARS coronavirus to emerge from wet markets. What makes you think there won't be more?
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Re: Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

Post by h_k_s »

LuckyR wrote: April 2nd, 2020, 4:40 pm
h_k_s wrote: April 2nd, 2020, 10:10 am

The 1918 flu most likely originated in China. But it may have originated anywhere, although from the USA is completely unlikely if not impossible because the conditions for it to spawn here in the USA do not exist.
So you're disputing the article cited in the post you quoted with what? Your personal opinion?
Numerous expert opinions point to China as the source of the 1918 flu.
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Re: Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

Post by Pattern-chaser »

NY Times wrote:A wild animal market in Wuhan may have been where the outbreak of Covid-19 began, and pangolins, in particular, have been proposed as a possible host of the virus before it jumped to people.

China had already banned the wildlife markets. The action on Monday by a standing committee of the 13th National People’s Congress went further. The decision on “Comprehensively Prohibiting the Illegal Trade of Wild Animals, Eliminating the Bad Habits of Wild Animal Consumption, and Protecting the Health and Safety of the People,” bans all trade and eating of non-aquatic wild animals.
Here's a link to the whole article, which is dated Febraury 27 this year.
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Re: Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

Post by Pattern-chaser »

h_k_s wrote: April 3rd, 2020, 9:21 am Numerous expert opinions point to China as the source of the 1918 flu.
Wikipedia mentions several possible sources, including the UK, US and China. It's difficult to confirm or deny any of them, 100 years later.

Diseases mutate all the time. A new (human) disease emerges every 3 or 4 months. This is not the fault of any country, it what the diseases do. It would be so easy to blame (say) China, and thereby assume it's on them to make sure all this doesn't happen again. But there have been comments from all over the place observing how no country has adequate planning in place to deal with a pandemic. Perhaps this is something we should look into now, with some urgency, instead of pointless blame-casting?
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Re: Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

Post by h_k_s »

Pattern-chaser wrote: April 3rd, 2020, 9:57 am
h_k_s wrote: April 3rd, 2020, 9:21 am Numerous expert opinions point to China as the source of the 1918 flu.
Wikipedia mentions several possible sources, including the UK, US and China. It's difficult to confirm or deny any of them, 100 years later.

Diseases mutate all the time. A new (human) disease emerges every 3 or 4 months. This is not the fault of any country, it what the diseases do. It would be so easy to blame (say) China, and thereby assume it's on them to make sure all this doesn't happen again. But there have been comments from all over the place observing how no country has adequate planning in place to deal with a pandemic. Perhaps this is something we should look into now, with some urgency, instead of pointless blame-casting?
At the very least, I believe the US military (USAF & USN) should target and nuke every wet market in China.

Good thing I am not the POTUS huh ?!
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