Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

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Sculptor1
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Re: Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

Post by Sculptor1 » April 8th, 2020, 9:09 am

Pattern-chaser wrote:
April 8th, 2020, 8:28 am
Greta wrote:
April 7th, 2020, 6:41 pm
What is it like being raised in a culture where sophisticates are known to scoop the brains out of living, drugged monkeys at the dinner table as a delicacy?
Wikipedia is, at best, dubious about this so-called practice. Other articles describe how this happens, but always in some far-away country that someone wishes to portray as being barbaric. It's against the law in China, and in many other places too. Wildlife is now fairly well protected across the world, with only animals long-established as food animals being bred in captivity for consumption. And the latter, when we get right down to the mechanics of raising animals for meat, is about as horrific as it gets.

China was civilised when the rest of us were still living in caves and hitting each other with clubs. Since then, they have behaved as well as most other national populations of humans do. I.e. badly, many would say with barbarism. Armadillos have been eaten in Central America, and also in the US following the Great Depression. What you consider normal food, I might be appalled at. And vice versa, of course.

CoViD19 could have emerged in an American intensive chicken-factory, or accidentally from a biological weapons centre, if such things existed, which of course they don't, as my government assures me they don't.... Pigs are also a possibility, especially when raised in intensive factories. Remember "bird flu" (chickens) and "swine flu"? Anti-Chinese hate-speech does harm, but no good that I can see.
I agree with this.
It's amusing to note the glee with which the racists and veganazis point the finger at the dirty Chinese.
Viruses are in constant mutation. We all know that viruses such as the flu virus are continually changing each year keeping the vaccine producers tearing out their hair. The virus achieves these annual changes without the help of any animals in the chain of infection. And there is nothing special about the zoonotic practice of viruses that would make either a more virulent, nor a more infectious strain. Luckily such an event is remarkably rare since most mutations lead to the death of the virus.
There is no more danger in a meat market than there is spending time on an over-crowded bus, train or cinema.
What has been interesting in microbiology over the last few decades is the understanding the the microbial world is far more promiscuous in its ability to collect random bits of DNA/RNA to incorporate new systems.
But people want an easy tag to point to new strains, and there are those whose political interests would seek to mobilise their prejudices.

Jklint
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Re: Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

Post by Jklint » April 8th, 2020, 5:16 pm

Pattern-chaser wrote:
April 8th, 2020, 8:28 am
China was civilised when the rest of us were still living in caves and hitting each other with clubs.
Your chronology of civilizations requires a slight revision...
In terms of age, civilizations in other parts of the world precede China. Writing systems in Egypt and Mesopotamia predate Chinese writing by a thousand years. The world’s first city, Uruk, in modern-day Iraq, dates back seven thousand years. Even in comparison to Europe, China isn’t that old. Confucius’ life overlapped with those of Pythagoras and Socrates. China was first unified in 221 BC, a century after Alexander the Great had created the Hellenistic Empire, and just a few centuries before the zenith of the Roman Empire.

Jklint
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Re: Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

Post by Jklint » April 8th, 2020, 5:42 pm

Greta wrote:
April 8th, 2020, 6:40 am
We like to think we are in control but we never have been, right from the start. We are as much meat puppets as any other species.
Not quite in accord with this. True that were meat puppets like any other species conjoined by DNA similarities but that's where it all ends. The fact that we can put an end to ourselves and just about everything else that doesn't live deep in a cave makes the separation complete. While nature is and remains the overlord the fact is we have been in control on this planet - even in prehistorical times - beyond any species that ever existed. The responsibility now clearly defaults to us since there's no one to blame or praise except ourselves for virtually every good and evil on our tiny floating realm as it travels through space.

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Re: Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

Post by Greta » April 8th, 2020, 9:49 pm

Jklint wrote:
April 8th, 2020, 5:42 pm
Greta wrote:
April 8th, 2020, 6:40 am
We like to think we are in control but we never have been, right from the start. We are as much meat puppets as any other species.
Not quite in accord with this. True that were meat puppets like any other species conjoined by DNA similarities but that's where it all ends. The fact that we can put an end to ourselves and just about everything else that doesn't live deep in a cave makes the separation complete. While nature is and remains the overlord the fact is we have been in control on this planet - even in prehistorical times - beyond any species that ever existed. The responsibility now clearly defaults to us since there's no one to blame or praise except ourselves for virtually every good and evil on our tiny floating realm as it travels through space.
Where is our choice manifest? Why do we choose to live in crowded, filthy, hyper-competitive cities rather than living in nature - which is the retirement fantasy of a majority? Because we have no choice. Societies who lived the dream were either assimilated or killed. Now almost everyone is crammed in cities - and dreaming of a sea change or a tree change.

We like to imagine we are are beyond the Earth's influence, either with pride or horror. Each is an illusion. However, we remain utterly subject to it. Drought, floods, cyclones and tornadoes, tsunamis, earthquakes and disease. Our own pollution becomes part of the system and then influences us further. The poor in developing countries have no doubt how subject they are to nature - and this will spread to increasingly impact on developed nations.

However, you are right in the sense that, sans a planet-killing asteroid, the billionaires who cause most of the trouble are untouchable.

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Re: Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

Post by gad-fly » April 9th, 2020, 12:24 am

Pattern-chaser wrote:
April 7th, 2020, 9:36 am

It is my understanding that distancing is not a way of avoiding the virus, which is perhaps too widespread now to 'contain'. It is a way to preserve lives by avoiding overloading our healthcare systems. The virus emerged in China, but without global air travel, its advance would have been 1000 (?) times slower. Alongside that simple concrete fact, there is the political act of spreading the virus by repatriating citizens to their home countries, instead of them staying where they were/are until the worst had/has passed. Without air travel, of any sort, would the virus even have left the Hubei province yet (or at all)?

So the spread of CoViD19 has been directly impacted by our "global village" approach to global travel. If our world was "composed organically of multiple villages", its spread would have been slower, at the least. In the specific context of the current pandemic, it would seem that the global village scenario has been a prominent contributor to the seriousness of the pandemic. So, in this sense, the ecological disaster currently unfolding has influenced (i.e. worsened) the spread and the effects of CoViD19.
The term "Physical Distancing" is now more heard than "Social Distancing". The latter is usually understood as between people, but the former can also apply between zones and countries.

Distancing, short for physical distancing, is essential to avoid being infected and to fight the virus. No doubt about that. In a matter of life and death, we cannot afford to say: Too widespread to control. Agreed that no air travel would have slowed it a thousand times, but air travel is our way of life. We are not about to turn back the clock. Repatriation is humanitarian, being with loved ones in time of distress. No democratic country can get away with not doing that.

With the pandemic in full swing, essential Distancing has turned the global village into separated multiple societies in the short term, but the convenience of air travel and transportation must return and even improve. The question is: Do we still want to travel as frequently as before, or have we found out the virtue and beauty of distancing, without the coercion imposed by the pandemic? This can be our new Enlightenment, with the Global Village going out of fashion, replaced, and completed its historical mission. Less travel can be better; lower consumption can make us happier, and healthier too; growth is not the only choice; recession can be fine. Perhaps this pandemic has shown us the way to Nirvana. Let us pray. Time to play a new game.

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Re: Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

Post by Jklint » April 9th, 2020, 5:49 am

Greta wrote:
April 8th, 2020, 9:49 pm
We like to imagine we are are beyond the Earth's influence, either with pride or horror. Each is an illusion. However, we remain utterly subject to it. Drought, floods, cyclones and tornadoes, tsunamis, earthquakes and disease. Our own pollution becomes part of the system and then influences us further. The poor in developing countries have no doubt how subject they are to nature - and this will spread to increasingly impact on developed nations.
I agree and stated so many times. The misery of the corona virus is only a tiny introduction to what will follow especially now that economies have so severely and suddenly been impacted with its corresponding fallout in unemployment and wealth destruction - except for the very wealthy, as you mention, but even their time is not unlimited. Globalisation, or what there was of it, is reverting back to nationalism since the pandemic made it clear that each country is on its own; this precisely at a time when a globalised response to climate change is imperative.

The consequences of this very novel situation will force at best any prior weak emphasis on climate change onto the back-burner. If this happens it would be tantamount to leveraging a relatively small catastrophe into one that may no-longer be rectified.

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Re: Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

Post by Greta » April 9th, 2020, 7:42 am

Jklint wrote:
April 9th, 2020, 5:49 am
... fallout in unemployment and wealth destruction - except for the very wealthy, as you mention, but even their time is not unlimited.
...
The consequences of this very novel situation will force at best any prior weak emphasis on climate change onto the back-burner.
I am fatalistic when it comes to climate change and habitat destruction these days. After decades of warnings and decades of inaction, more of the same seems to be on the cards, especially with the COVID-19 distraction.

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Steve3007
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Re: Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

Post by Steve3007 » April 9th, 2020, 8:34 am

Well, people can say what they like about covid 19, but it's very effective at reducing CO2 emissions. Much more effective than Greta Thunberg's hard stares. You only have to look at the collapsed oil price to see that. It's rallied a bit recently due to hope that the OPEC+ meeting later today might result in massive production cuts because the world just isn't using it and global storage is rapidly filling up. (I'm amused by the fact that so many countries take the stuff that's just been pumped out of the ground and pump it back into the ground again - market driven carbon capture). Petrol prices have plunged and my car's tank is full, but I can't use it.

If it keeps flaring and we keep needing these lockdowns periodically for some time to come, we might get more and more used to working from home.

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Re: Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

Post by gad-fly » April 9th, 2020, 10:40 am

Greta wrote:
April 9th, 2020, 7:42 am

The consequences of this very novel situation will force at best any prior weak emphasis on climate change onto the back-burner.
I am fatalistic when it comes to climate change and habitat destruction these days. After decades of warnings and decades of inaction, more of the same seems to be on the cards, especially with the COVID-19 distraction.
[/quote]

Many, like you, are fatalistic about the future of mankind, but each catastrophe should be tackled separately on its own light. The present pandemic, unlike climate change, should be over within a year. Realizing 'inaction" and predicting the consequence of "inaction" should begin discussion on measured, appropriate, and necessary action to counter and alleviate the long- and short-term consequence of the pandemic. Let us begin, now that we have all agreed on the necessity of distancing, but it alone is not good enough.

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Re: Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

Post by Greta » April 9th, 2020, 7:11 pm

gad-fly wrote:
April 9th, 2020, 10:40 am
Greta wrote:
April 9th, 2020, 7:42 am
I am fatalistic when it comes to climate change and habitat destruction these days. After decades of warnings and decades of inaction, more of the same seems to be on the cards, especially with the COVID-19 distraction.
Many, like you, are fatalistic about the future of mankind, but each catastrophe should be tackled separately on its own light. The present pandemic, unlike climate change, should be over within a year. Realizing 'inaction" and predicting the consequence of "inaction" should begin discussion on measured, appropriate, and necessary action to counter and alleviate the long- and short-term consequence of the pandemic. Let us begin, now that we have all agreed on the necessity of distancing, but it alone is not good enough.
That can't work either. Evangelists everywhere, after decades of cold war with scientists, will not take anything scientists say seriously. Also, various other parties will struggle to balance health and prosperity in their own ways.

Also, just wait for summer to arrive and we have the intersection of drought, fire, storms and floods with COVID. Everyone is lucky that the pandemic's first global peaks occurred during a temperate time of year. With luck, the dampening of activity will reduce the effect.

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Re: Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

Post by gad-fly » April 10th, 2020, 11:51 am

Greta wrote:
April 9th, 2020, 7:11 pm

That can't work either. Evangelists everywhere, after decades of cold war with scientists, will not take anything scientists say seriously. Also, various other parties will struggle to balance health and prosperity in their own ways.

Also, just wait for summer to arrive and we have the intersection of drought, fire, storms and floods with COVID. Everyone is lucky that the pandemic's first global peaks occurred during a temperate time of year. With luck, the dampening of activity will reduce the effect.
Would the emphasis on Distancing during this pandemic have a lasting impact on the development of the Global Village? Assuming that we let it be, would the impact be good or bad, academically speaking?

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Re: Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

Post by Pattern-chaser » April 10th, 2020, 12:29 pm

gad-fly wrote:
April 9th, 2020, 10:40 am
Many, like you, are fatalistic about the future of mankind, but each catastrophe should be tackled separately on its own light.
I can't see that this makes sense. If there are two (or ten) ctastrophes happening simultaneously, and they are catastrophes, they all need to be addressed simultaneously. No catastrophe can safely be ignored because there's another catastrophe also in progress. Otherwise we solve one problem, but leave the others to get worse without taking any action. How can that make sense?
Pattern-chaser

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Re: Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

Post by gad-fly » April 10th, 2020, 3:52 pm

Pattern-chaser wrote:
April 10th, 2020, 12:29 pm
gad-fly wrote:
April 9th, 2020, 10:40 am
Many, like you, are fatalistic about the future of mankind, but each catastrophe should be tackled separately on its own light.
I can't see that this makes sense. If there are two (or ten) ctastrophes happening simultaneously, and they are catastrophes, they all need to be addressed simultaneously. No catastrophe can safely be ignored because there's another catastrophe also in progress. Otherwise we solve one problem, but leave the others to get worse without taking any action. How can that make sense?
Take catastrophe like illness. Different illness requires different treatment and different medicine. Some treatment can be the same, like praying and hospitalization. Simultaneously? Depends on how serious each is, like common cold and cancer. Better simultaneously, if you can afford to.

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Re: Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

Post by Greta » April 10th, 2020, 5:50 pm

gad-fly wrote:
April 10th, 2020, 11:51 am
Greta wrote:
April 9th, 2020, 7:11 pm

That can't work either. Evangelists everywhere, after decades of cold war with scientists, will not take anything scientists say seriously. Also, various other parties will struggle to balance health and prosperity in their own ways.

Also, just wait for summer to arrive and we have the intersection of drought, fire, storms and floods with COVID. Everyone is lucky that the pandemic's first global peaks occurred during a temperate time of year. With luck, the dampening of activity will reduce the effect.
Would the emphasis on Distancing during this pandemic have a lasting impact on the development of the Global Village? Assuming that we let it be, would the impact be good or bad, academically speaking?
It depends on whether a vaccine is developed. Personally, I would love to see Australia halt immigration for a decade. We have had the highest rate of immigration in the western world for some time and urban centre infrastructure desperately needs time to catch up. However, since immigration boosts annual GDP, creating the illusion of competent economic management, that is unlikely.

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Re: Distancing in the Pandemic on the Global Village

Post by gad-fly » April 11th, 2020, 11:43 pm

Greta wrote:
April 10th, 2020, 5:50 pm
gad-fly wrote:
April 10th, 2020, 11:51 am


Would the emphasis on Distancing during this pandemic have a lasting impact on the development of the Global Village? Assuming that we let it be, would the impact be good or bad, academically speaking?
It depends on whether a vaccine is developed. Personally, I would love to see Australia halt immigration for a decade. We have had the highest rate of immigration in the western world for some time and urban centre infrastructure desperately needs time to catch up. However, since immigration boosts annual GDP, creating the illusion of competent economic management, that is unlikely.
Assuming a vaccine developed, I take you to mean the emphasis on Distancing would fade away. You may be right, though I hope not. Having paid so much in this pandemic, it is not asking too much for us to learn a lesson. What can we learn, optimistically speaking?

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