Should Basic Income Guarantee be introduced to tackle the present Pandemic e n

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Man With Beard
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Re: Should Basic Income Guarantee be introduced to tackle the present Pandemic e n

Post by Man With Beard »

h_k_s wrote: April 11th, 2020, 10:57 pm And it did not work for the Russian Communists either, nor for the European Eastern Bloc prior to 1991.
The Soviet Union did not have guaranteed minimum income, nor did (to the best my knowledge) the rest of the Soviet block.

It did have guaranteed employment, to the extent that if you were not officially disabled (in which case you were entitled to a pittance), you would get something, no matter how much of a screw up you were. This was a flawed setup, but I am not aware of anyone seriously suggesting it was a major contributor to USSR's fall.
So my personal view is that only a temporary safety net such as unemployment payments are appropriate in capitalist societies like North America and Europe.
I love capitalism as much as the next guy, but guaranteed minimum income would likely be cheaper than the current hodge-podge of social assistance measures that are the norm capitalist societies. Would also make it more difficult for capitalists to use the power of firing someone as leverage for taking advantage of them or getting them to do something illegal.
Eating bats in China has now killed thousands of people both inside and outside of China.
The famous photo of a girl eating a bat was not taken in China.
People should have listened to Moses and stuck to the kosher rules of the Tenakh. Bats and monkeys are definitely NOT kosher.
The kosher rules apply to the Jews only. Out of the 613 rules only 7 apply to non-Jews. Eating parts of an animal while the animal is still alive is one such prohibition, and carrion (if memory serves) is the other.

However, one could make a reasonable argument that eating primates is prohibited under "murder" which also is forbidden for everyone.
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h_k_s
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Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: Should Basic Income Guarantee be introduced to tackle the present Pandemic e n

Post by h_k_s »

Man With Beard wrote: October 5th, 2020, 2:05 pm
h_k_s wrote: April 11th, 2020, 10:57 pm And it did not work for the Russian Communists either, nor for the European Eastern Bloc prior to 1991.
The Soviet Union did not have guaranteed minimum income, nor did (to the best my knowledge) the rest of the Soviet block.

It did have guaranteed employment, to the extent that if you were not officially disabled (in which case you were entitled to a pittance), you would get something, no matter how much of a screw up you were. This was a flawed setup, but I am not aware of anyone seriously suggesting it was a major contributor to USSR's fall.
So my personal view is that only a temporary safety net such as unemployment payments are appropriate in capitalist societies like North America and Europe.
I love capitalism as much as the next guy, but guaranteed minimum income would likely be cheaper than the current hodge-podge of social assistance measures that are the norm capitalist societies. Would also make it more difficult for capitalists to use the power of firing someone as leverage for taking advantage of them or getting them to do something illegal.
Eating bats in China has now killed thousands of people both inside and outside of China.
The famous photo of a girl eating a bat was not taken in China.
People should have listened to Moses and stuck to the kosher rules of the Tenakh. Bats and monkeys are definitely NOT kosher.
The kosher rules apply to the Jews only. Out of the 613 rules only 7 apply to non-Jews. Eating parts of an animal while the animal is still alive is one such prohibition, and carrion (if memory serves) is the other.

However, one could make a reasonable argument that eating primates is prohibited under "murder" which also is forbidden for everyone.
Wow, this was from a long time ago.

Don't even remember the topic anymore.

You been living under a rock ??

Don't parse posts like you have done above. Or you will get ignored and onto the iggy list.

Just write a simple response, one paragraph, with simple sentences. Subject, verb, predicate.
Man With Beard
Posts: 31
Joined: August 2nd, 2013, 11:08 pm

Re: Should Basic Income Guarantee be introduced to tackle the present Pandemic e n

Post by Man With Beard »

Spyrith wrote: April 12th, 2020, 3:08 am In my opinion, a UBI is simply an indirect subsidy to big business, real estate developers, land owners and property owners.

For instance, let's say you approve UBI, what's the first thing that's going to happen? People who are homeless or have poor housing situation will immediately use the money to upgrade and move to a nicer, bigger house (or one that is closer to work or points of interest).

But since everyone has UBI, demand for higher quality housing will essentially explode and cause pressurre on the prices to go up. Way more people now compete for a limited housing stock so prices go higher. The same will likely apply to other big and small ticket purchases.

Once the dust settles, you're essentially back you came, except that now your country's finances are torn to pieces and you can't remove the UBI without causing a revolution.
Translation to plain English: To keep housing affordable it is better if some people can't afford it at all and live on the streets. Because **** those guys!
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Arjen
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Re: Should Basic Income Guarantee be introduced to tackle the present Pandemic e n

Post by Arjen »

gad-fly wrote: April 9th, 2020, 2:41 pm Serious concern on the widespread shut-down of the economy, caused by the present pandemic, has led to panic moves by governments all over the world. It can be appreciated that governments have no choice but to take stop-gap measures, like shooting now and finding out who has been shot later. It follows that those moaning and groaning loudest would usually be prioritized for salvage without regard to fairness and consequence. The petroleum sector is one such example in Canada.

With so many citizens financially stressed, many governments would: 1. Delay/cancel tax payment; 2. Refund tax payment; 3. Introduce emergency benefit; 4. Pay 50% to 80% of wage through employer subject to no firing. Measures to help employers would also run in parallel.

Introducing so many different measures within such a short time span, apart from being administratively difficult and costly, can be duplicative and confusing to the public. A better approach may be to introduce Basic Income Guarantee (BIG or GBI) instead. The most recent pilot basic Income program was undertaken in Canada, giving 4000 Ontario residents living in poverty C$17,000 a year or C$24,00 per couple. They can keep half of their income from any job they have. Federally it was suggested in April 17, 2018 that this would cost roughly C$43 billion a year. No doubt a lot of money for any government to afford, but drastic time creates drastic demand to be satisfied. In the end, the Canadian Government may find the bill to their present piecemeal and ad hoc measures not much less than C$43. If so, why not have this neat, clear-cut, and fair policy introduced, for other governments all over the world to follow as a good example?
Not in a million years is it a good idea to suddenly suspend the right to property, or the right to gather property. No way!
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant
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Arjen
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Re: Should Basic Income Guarantee be introduced to tackle the present Pandemic e n

Post by Arjen »

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The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant
gad-fly
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Joined: October 23rd, 2019, 4:48 pm

Re: Should Basic Income Guarantee be introduced to tackle the present Pandemic e n

Post by gad-fly »

Arjen wrote: October 13th, 2020, 2:43 pm
gad-fly wrote: April 9th, 2020, 2:41 pm Serious concern on the widespread shut-down of the economy, caused by the present pandemic, has led to panic moves by governments all over the world. It can be appreciated that governments have no choice but to take stop-gap measures, like shooting now and finding out who has been shot later. It follows that those moaning and groaning loudest would usually be prioritized for salvage without regard to fairness and consequence. The petroleum sector is one such example in Canada.

With so many citizens financially stressed, many governments would: 1. Delay/cancel tax payment; 2. Refund tax payment; 3. Introduce emergency benefit; 4. Pay 50% to 80% of wage through employer subject to no firing. Measures to help employers would also run in parallel.

Introducing so many different measures within such a short time span, apart from being administratively difficult and costly, can be duplicative and confusing to the public. A better approach may be to introduce Basic Income Guarantee (BIG or GBI) instead. The most recent pilot basic Income program was undertaken in Canada, giving 4000 Ontario residents living in poverty C$17,000 a year or C$24,00 per couple. They can keep half of their income from any job they have. Federally it was suggested in April 17, 2018 that this would cost roughly C$43 billion a year. No doubt a lot of money for any government to afford, but drastic time creates drastic demand to be satisfied. In the end, the Canadian Government may find the bill to their present piecemeal and ad hoc measures not much less than C$43. If so, why not have this neat, clear-cut, and fair policy introduced, for other governments all over the world to follow as a good example?
Not in a million years is it a good idea to suddenly suspend the right to property, or the right to gather property. No way!
property right and basic income are not related. Have you mistaken poverty with property?
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Arjen
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Re: Should Basic Income Guarantee be introduced to tackle the present Pandemic e n

Post by Arjen »

I think you think that I mean real estate. I mean any kind of posession. When garanteeing a basic income, basically what you are doing is reverting to a system which circumvents a fair way to gathering posessions in a way that is equal to all and that rewards intelligent/hard workers. And that irreversably is a suspension of the right to posession.
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant
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