Vegetarianism

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Count Lucanor
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Re: Vegetarianism

Post by Count Lucanor »

Steve3007 wrote: July 13th, 2020, 4:37 am ... we'd have to first consider the question of why "excessive lifestyles of the rich" exist. It's not enough to simply say something like "because the affluent west is selfish, greedy and wasteful" or something along those lines. Even if that were true, saying so doesn't solve the problem. Human beings, the world over, are broadly the same. Generally speaking, if most people get the chance to own two big gas guzzling cars and fly around the world on luxury holidays (for example) they will take it. That isn't much affected by the part of the world from which they come.
I disagree with your view that humans are broadly the same, everywhere, all the time. The whole spectrum of human needs is malleable and as it has become evident, marketing and ideology can make you desire the most useless things that one can imagine. Of course, if all humans are exposed to the same cultural process, such as advertisement and ideological propaganda, it is most likely that they will end up having more or less homogeneous world views. Surely, those methods of influencing people are mostly developed in one part of the world and exported to others.
Steve3007 wrote: July 13th, 2020, 4:37 am So, if we think that a lifestyle of excessive consumption is a bad thing, and that the spread of such lifestyles across more of the world would be an even worse thing, what do we propose to do to fix that? Higher taxes on the rich? Ban big cars? Do we have any potential solutions that, if we proposed them as an elected politician, might actually work?
Excessive consumption is not only associated with a lavish lifestyle, in fact it can mean big inefficiencies without a relevant benefit in comfort, well-being or functionality. And consumption is just one part of the whole chain that converts natural resources into products and services for humans. Regulations, as well as innovations, are required in all points of the process and across the 3 traditional dimensions of sustainability. You don't have to ban big cars if you make sense of public transportation. CFC refrigerants were prohibited with legislation, but also new, more efficient refrigeration technologies have been developed. A LEED Certified building can save 40% or 50% of water and energy among other things, with the appropriate design strategies, without sacrificing comfort, well-being and budget. There are a lot of sustainable practices that can replace almost every current way of doing things, they can do it better and more efficiently.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
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Sy Borg
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Re: Vegetarianism

Post by Sy Borg »

We know that fossil fuel companies and investment banks - the most powerful corporate entities on Earth - have an interest in maintaining the status quo, and have a history of stymying sustainable developments and pushing for ever greater populations and consumption.

In the meantime, regular people can help sustainability (and their health) by reducing their consumption of meat. There are many other ways to lower one's environmental footprint, such as repairing rather than throwing away, are minimising use of cars and planes, but those are not in the thread's scope.
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Re: Vegetarianism

Post by Belindi »

Count Lucanor wrote:
Excessive consumption is not only associated with a lavish lifestyle, in fact it can mean big inefficiencies without a relevant benefit in comfort, well-being or functionality. And consumption is just one part of the whole chain that converts natural resources into products and services for humans. Regulations, as well as innovations, are required in all points of the process and across the 3 traditional dimensions of sustainability. You don't have to ban big cars if you make sense of public transportation. CFC refrigerants were prohibited with legislation, but also new, more efficient refrigeration technologies have been developed. A LEED Certified building can save 40% or 50% of water and energy among other things, with the appropriate design strategies, without sacrificing comfort, well-being and budget. There are a lot of sustainable practices that can replace almost every current way of doing things, they can do it better and more efficiently.
The above may be summed up under the title "Ought can be derived from is".
There is as always an implication the underlying criterion is " existence is better than nonexistence".

The fact is unarguable that animal farming and excessive consumption of energy are unsustainable.
gad-fly
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Re: Vegetarianism

Post by gad-fly »

Greta wrote: July 14th, 2020, 8:17 pm We know that fossil fuel companies and investment banks - the most powerful corporate entities on Earth - have an interest in maintaining the status quo, and have a history of stymying sustainable developments and pushing for ever greater populations and consumption.

In the meantime, regular people can help sustainability (and their health) by reducing their consumption of meat. There are many other ways to lower one's environmental footprint, such as repairing rather than throwing away, are minimising use of cars and planes, but those are not in the thread's scope.
It is futile to blame investment bankers. as is to blame farmers, manufacturers, and fossil fuel extractors. What they have in common is The Profit Motive as the driving force. Public interest will always play a minor role. Given a choice between cattle ranching and planting soy bean, a farmer would pick what offers a higher return on his labor. That cattle would emit methane leading to global warming is a side concern, since discharging methane to the atmosphere is free. On the other hand, a carbon tax would raise his cost, and perhaps reduce his return even if beef becomes more expensive. In turn, the consumer would be induced to eat less beef. The same story goes with plastic producers who can be allowed forget about plastic garbage in the ocean, hillside, and river course.

What should be done is to charge real cost from cradle to grave, and let the wallet vote.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Vegetarianism

Post by Sy Borg »

gad-fly wrote: July 19th, 2020, 10:06 pm
Greta wrote: July 14th, 2020, 8:17 pm We know that fossil fuel companies and investment banks - the most powerful corporate entities on Earth - have an interest in maintaining the status quo, and have a history of stymying sustainable developments and pushing for ever greater populations and consumption.

In the meantime, regular people can help sustainability (and their health) by reducing their consumption of meat. There are many other ways to lower one's environmental footprint, such as repairing rather than throwing away, are minimising use of cars and planes, but those are not in the thread's scope.
It is futile to blame investment bankers. as is to blame farmers, manufacturers, and fossil fuel extractors. What they have in common is The Profit Motive as the driving force. Public interest will always play a minor role. Given a choice between cattle ranching and planting soy bean, a farmer would pick what offers a higher return on his labor. That cattle would emit methane leading to global warming is a side concern, since discharging methane to the atmosphere is free. On the other hand, a carbon tax would raise his cost, and perhaps reduce his return even if beef becomes more expensive. In turn, the consumer would be induced to eat less beef. The same story goes with plastic producers who can be allowed forget about plastic garbage in the ocean, hillside, and river course.

What should be done is to charge real cost from cradle to grave, and let the wallet vote.
Indeed. Unfortunately investment banks, fossil fuel companies and their media minions will not permit the true cost of pollution to be me by the producers of the pollution. Instead those costs are gifted to the masses.

In Australia, we first tried to implement a carbon tax in 2007 but the Murdoch media - with their strong business associations with fossil fuel companies - has removed all Prime Ministers who have even spoken about taxing emissions, let alone proposed serious policy. Howard was removed after taking a carbon tax into the 2007 election. Then Kevin Rudd was removed for trying to bring through a bill that would have done as your said. Julia Gillard was hounded incessantly, and unfairly, until she too left the scene.

That opened the way for strong coal advocate, Tony Abbott, who even went so far as to remove the science ministry (he was also a fundamentalist Christian). However, we was so imcompetent that even Murdoch could not save him. That opened the way for middle-of-the-road conservative Malcolm Turnbull, whose interest in a carbon tax also lead to his demise. This paved the way fro strongly pro-coal Prime Minister Morrison, who enjoys VIP treatment by the Murdoch press, and is popular despite his obvious corruption and failures, including refusing to speak to former fire service commissioners who tried for months to gain an audience to warm him of the dangers, and then a billion animals were lost, many human lives and dwellings, and huge tracts of wild areas and arable land destroyed.

But since he remains staunchly pro-fossil fuels and anti-renewables, the Murdochs have lifted him up again, lionising him for his response to the latest financial crisis after lambasting the Labor Party for doing exactly the same thing during the GFC.

Meanwhile, so much wilderness is being destroyed that, by the time we embrace renewables, it will be too late. Too late to take advantage of innovation, too late for the animals made extinct, and too late for destroyed ecosystems.
Belindi
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Re: Vegetarianism

Post by Belindi »

Is there any hope the younger generation will rise to the challenge and change regimes?
Answer: not if the regime in question is sufficiently repressive.

Trump's federal troops in Oregon shows how the US is becoming repressive. Is Australia as much an adjunct of the US as is poor old Britain?
gad-fly
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Re: Vegetarianism

Post by gad-fly »

Greta wrote: July 20th, 2020, 1:16 am
gad-fly wrote: July 19th, 2020, 10:06 pm
What should be done is to charge real cost from cradle to grave, and let the wallet vote.
Indeed. Unfortunately investment banks, fossil fuel companies and their media minions will not permit the true cost of pollution to be me by the producers of the pollution. Instead those costs are gifted to the masses.

In Australia, we first tried to implement a carbon tax in 2007 but the Murdoch media - with their strong business associations with fossil fuel companies - has removed all Prime Ministers who have even spoken about taxing emissions, let alone proposed serious policy. Howard was removed after taking a carbon tax into the 2007 election. Then Kevin Rudd was removed for trying to bring through a bill that would have done as your said. Julia Gillard was hounded incessantly, and unfairly, until she too left the scene.

That opened the way for strong coal advocate, Tony Abbott, who even went so far as to remove the science ministry (he was also a fundamentalist Christian). However, we was so imcompetent that even Murdoch could not save him. That opened the way for middle-of-the-road conservative Malcolm Turnbull, whose interest in a carbon tax also lead to his demise. This paved the way fro strongly pro-coal Prime Minister Morrison, who enjoys VIP treatment by the Murdoch press, and is popular despite his obvious corruption and failures, including refusing to speak to former fire service commissioners who tried for months to gain an audience to warm him of the dangers, and then a billion animals were lost, many human lives and dwellings, and huge tracts of wild areas and arable land destroyed.

But since he remains staunchly pro-fossil fuels and anti-renewables, the Murdochs have lifted him up again, lionising him for his response to the latest financial crisis after lambasting the Labor Party for doing exactly the basame thing during the GFC.

Meanwhile, so much wilderness is being destroyed that, by the time we embrace renewables, it will be too late. Too late to take advantage of innovation, too late for the animals made extinct, and too late for destroyed ecosystems.
I am not qualified to comment on Australian politics, but i would suggest some common-sense answers. Why is one party in opposition while the other is in power? Because the latter makes more sense to the electorate. Why is carbon tax stalled? Because it is staked against the wallet of the driving public. I believe carbon tax, having started on the wrong footing, is doomed unless appropriately re-invented.

Borrow a page from plastic bag in the supermarket. Impose a marginal charge when the bag is asked for. The charge hardly makes a dent in the wallet, but as a tax it will become a reminder every time on environmental protection. No international fanfare and conference on agreement. No costly publicity and force-fed education. No political downfall on conscience. Just a simple damned ten cents or so. Thank you for the trouble.

Similar can apply to meat consumption. Impose a separately identified methane tax on beef, like on plastic bag. Make this tax revenue-neutral. Apply the revenue directly on measures to mitigate the adverse effect of methane as a global warming gas. Sit back to watch people eating less beef, incidentally for their own good.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Vegetarianism

Post by Sculptor1 »

I think we should place a massive tax on vegans becuase they fail to support the wool and leather markets which contribute massive amounts of NATURAL material for clothes and many other good.
Leather offers a natural product that can only be replaced with more plastics. The availability of wool similarly reduces out reliance of many other artificial and environmentally harmful products.
Other by products of the meat and diary industries include natural glue and fertilizers.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Vegetarianism

Post by Sy Borg »

gad-fly wrote: July 20th, 2020, 11:20 am
Greta wrote: July 20th, 2020, 1:16 am
Indeed. Unfortunately investment banks, fossil fuel companies and their media minions will not permit the true cost of pollution to be me by the producers of the pollution. Instead those costs are gifted to the masses.

In Australia, we first tried to implement a carbon tax in 2007 but the Murdoch media - with their strong business associations with fossil fuel companies - has removed all Prime Ministers who have even spoken about taxing emissions, let alone proposed serious policy. Howard was removed after taking a carbon tax into the 2007 election. Then Kevin Rudd was removed for trying to bring through a bill that would have done as your said. Julia Gillard was hounded incessantly, and unfairly, until she too left the scene.

That opened the way for strong coal advocate, Tony Abbott, who even went so far as to remove the science ministry (he was also a fundamentalist Christian). However, we was so imcompetent that even Murdoch could not save him. That opened the way for middle-of-the-road conservative Malcolm Turnbull, whose interest in a carbon tax also lead to his demise. This paved the way fro strongly pro-coal Prime Minister Morrison, who enjoys VIP treatment by the Murdoch press, and is popular despite his obvious corruption and failures, including refusing to speak to former fire service commissioners who tried for months to gain an audience to warm him of the dangers, and then a billion animals were lost, many human lives and dwellings, and huge tracts of wild areas and arable land destroyed.

But since he remains staunchly pro-fossil fuels and anti-renewables, the Murdochs have lifted him up again, lionising him for his response to the latest financial crisis after lambasting the Labor Party for doing exactly the basame thing during the GFC.

Meanwhile, so much wilderness is being destroyed that, by the time we embrace renewables, it will be too late. Too late to take advantage of innovation, too late for the animals made extinct, and too late for destroyed ecosystems.
I am not qualified to comment on Australian politics, but i would suggest some common-sense answers. Why is one party in opposition while the other is in power? Because the latter makes more sense to the electorate. Why is carbon tax stalled? Because it is staked against the wallet of the driving public. I believe carbon tax, having started on the wrong footing, is doomed unless appropriately re-invented.

Borrow a page from plastic bag in the supermarket. Impose a marginal charge when the bag is asked for. The charge hardly makes a dent in the wallet, but as a tax it will become a reminder every time on environmental protection. No international fanfare and conference on agreement. No costly publicity and force-fed education. No political downfall on conscience. Just a simple damned ten cents or so. Thank you for the trouble.

Similar can apply to meat consumption. Impose a separately identified methane tax on beef, like on plastic bag. Make this tax revenue-neutral. Apply the revenue directly on measures to mitigate the adverse effect of methane as a global warming gas. Sit back to watch people eating less beef, incidentally for their own good.
A party supported by an American media mogul, who owns over 60% of the nation's print media, and huge stakes in electronic news media, will always make more sense to an electorate than one constantly (and without cause) derided as incompetent and corrupt, two features of the administration they have supported so keenly for the last six years.

Most people bring their own bags to supermarkets now but one needs to look at the larger circumstance. That is, societies have transformed from the steam engine to space exploration, powered by fossil fuels. It's no surprise, then, that those energy companies have grown to be amongst the largest organisations to have ever existed in world history.

So they have much influence, and they are not inclined to let trillions of dollars of legacy infrastructure go to waste without squeezing every last oil drop of wealth from them. If this ends up killing hosts of animals and poor people (the rich will always be safe) then so be it. The wealthiest shareholders always come first.
gad-fly
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Re: Vegetarianism

Post by gad-fly »

Greta wrote: July 20th, 2020, 5:23 pm
A party supported by an American media mogul, who owns over 60% of the nation's print media, and huge stakes in electronic news media, will always make more sense to an electorate than one constantly (and without cause) derided as incompetent and corrupt, two features of the administration they have supported so keenly for the last six years.

Most people bring their own bags to supermarkets now but one needs to look at the larger circumstance.
I can appreciate what you say. In democracy, election is the name of the game. The electorate should look at the larger circumstance. Unfortunately they can only be made to move step by step. Drastic (?) treatment like carbon tax can be counterproductive. Instead of banning plastic bag outright, charge it at a price so low nobody would care. It works. No international conference; No prominent leaders; No protest and demonstration. Isn't that a light at the end of the tunnel? If so, we can do that with vegetarianism to reduce warming methane, and so on.
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