Natural Right is the Fountain of all Freedoms

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GE Morton
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Re: Natural Right is the Fountain of all Freedoms

Post by GE Morton »

gad-fly wrote: July 18th, 2020, 5:45 pm
"right" is a claim by the owner, except for natural rights with no need to claim, like you right to be alive.
I have no idea how you came up with that notion. People claim rights to lives all the time --- opponents of capital punishment claim it; pacifists claim it; everyone who believes a particular killing was unjust claims it ("Black lives matter").
In the broad sense, if this claim has the approval of the public, it is legal right.
Legal rights don't require the approval of "the public." They only require the approval of the lawgiver.

But we're not speaking here of legal rights, which per se have no moral basis (unlike natural and common rights).
"common right" is not in the dictionary or in Wikipedia, where you can only find "common law right". You can look up common law and continental law.
"Common rights" are common law rights.
Ecurb
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Re: Natural Right is the Fountain of all Freedoms

Post by Ecurb »

GE Morton wrote: July 18th, 2020, 6:54 pm

A loss or injury willingly sustained is not a harm in the moral sense. They're usually incurred in the expectation of a greater gain. Athletes willingly endure pain in training ("no pain, no gain"). Every time you buy something you lose something --- the money you spent. Mothers willingly endure the pain of childbirth in anticipation of the joy of bringing new life into the world and raising the child. Moreover, that pain is not inflicted by the baby; she inflicts it upon herself, by getting pregnant and following through with the pregnancy. The infant had no control over any part of the process.
The "loss" is real. Indeed, if the mother doesn't feed the baby, she can be charged with abuse and imprisoned. I think we're quibbling now, though. Just as you were when you claimed, "Hence if a proposition is only true of a portion of the subject it is false." If I were to claim that I painted my house, but one tiny spot had been missed, I would be making a true statement. (If you don't agree, fine. But that's normal English usage. In fact, since no paint job is perfect, your claim suggests that ANYONE who says "I painted my house" is a liar.)

The capacity to learn language, mathematics, physics, or even how to build house or plant tomatoes is innate. You could send your dog to any school you chose, for as long as you chose, and he wouldn't be able to learn any of those things.
The capacity might be "innate", but where did that innate capacity get humans for the 50,000 years before they knew how to build a house or plant tomatoes? Nobody knew he had such an innate capacity when nobody knew how to build or plant. Our innate capacity for language is only realized when there IS a language to learn -- a language that has been developed over millenia and is responsible for many of our so-called innate capacities. Without it, our capacity for rational thought would be severely limited. With it, we are bound to our ancestors and our fellow humans with inseparable ties. Besides, our innate capacities develop along with our culture. Language conduced human prosperity and well-being to the extent that (over generations) Darwinian forces changed our brains. In any event, nature vs. nurture is not resolvable, and I dispute the notion that it matters whether our capacities are culturally influenced or innate with regard to any reasonable objective moral basis of rights.
GE Morton
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Re: Natural Right is the Fountain of all Freedoms

Post by GE Morton »

Ecurb wrote: July 18th, 2020, 7:37 pm
The "loss" is real.
I didn't say it wasn't real; I said it wasn't a moral harm, which is a loss or injury inflicted by one moral agent upon an unwilling other. I also said it wasn't the baby who inflicted the pain, but the mother herself. She made all the decisions which brought on the pain.
If I were to claim that I painted my house, but one tiny spot had been missed, I would be making a true statement. (If you don't agree, fine. But that's normal English usage.
It would be accepted as true in most contexts. But not in (say) a house-painting contest in which missed spots would disqualify you.

And, of course, to return to the real issue, no public policy benefits 99+% of citizens either; they typically benefit barely a majority, and often far fewer than that. But they will still be declared to be "for the public good."
The capacity might be "innate", but where did that innate capacity get humans for the 50,000 years before they knew how to build a house or plant tomatoes? Nobody knew he had such an innate capacity when nobody knew how to build or plant. Our innate capacity for language is only realized when there IS a language to learn -- a language that has been developed over millenia and is responsible for many of our so-called innate capacities.
That is impossible. If one may acquire language only if language already exists it could never have come into existence. And, no, language is not responsible for any innate capacities. It is useful for the teaching of skills and transmission of knowledge, but everything known and every skill possessed had to first be discovered or acquired de novo, by someone exercising innate talents and capacities.
In any event, nature vs. nurture is not resolvable, and I dispute the notion that it matters whether our capacities are culturally influenced or innate with regard to any reasonable objective moral basis of rights.
I agree it doesn't matter morally whether something to which a right is claimed is innate or acquired. What matters is whether that thing was acquired without inflicting loss or injury on other moral agents. It is that fact regarding the acquisition that is morally significant and objective.

The only practical difference between natural and common rights is that the latter are always subject to challenge --- someone may claim that you stole the thing to which you claim a right from him, or cheated him of it. Hence "quiet title" lawsuits. Natural rights are not vulnerable to such challenges (outside of science fiction). They are self-evident.
Ecurb
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Re: Natural Right is the Fountain of all Freedoms

Post by Ecurb »

I'm exercising my natural right to freedom of movement by heading off to the mountains for a pack packing trip. I'll be out of contact for a few days.
GE Morton
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Re: Natural Right is the Fountain of all Freedoms

Post by GE Morton »

Ecurb wrote: July 18th, 2020, 10:52 pm I'm exercising my natural right to freedom of movement by heading off to the mountains for a pack packing trip. I'll be out of contact for a few days.
Hey . .. just got back from one, along St Joe river in Idaho.

Enjoy!
gad-fly
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Re: Natural Right is the Fountain of all Freedoms

Post by gad-fly »

GE Morton wrote: July 18th, 2020, 7:09 pm People claim rights to lives all the time --- opponents of capital punishment claim it; pacifists claim it; everyone who believes a particular killing was unjust claims it ("Black lives matter").

Legal rights don't require the approval of "the public." They only require the approval of the lawgiver.

"Common rights" are common law rights.
In a democracy, there is absolutely no need to claim the right to live. In the same manner, people can move residence and travel without submitting mobility claim. These are natural rights. To claim them would insult democracy and be self-degradation. However, due vigilance should be kept, and due reaction exercised, on violence to life, as in police violence. Such vigilance should be extended to legislative review as necessary. In this respect, people can claim legal right, and beyond legal right, against violence to life.The claim is based on an inalienable natural right, vested by Natural law.

I don't know who you mean by the lawgiver. Do you mean God? In a democracy, no such person can be identified. Public approval is reflected by the elected legislature before turning into legal right.

So you have identified your created "common right" as '"common law right". I am afraid "common law right" is not what you intend it to mean. I leave you to look it up yourself.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Natural Right is the Fountain of all Freedoms

Post by Sculptor1 »

gad-fly wrote: July 19th, 2020, 11:35 am
GE Morton wrote: July 18th, 2020, 7:09 pm People claim rights to lives all the time --- opponents of capital punishment claim it; pacifists claim it; everyone who believes a particular killing was unjust claims it ("Black lives matter").

Legal rights don't require the approval of "the public." They only require the approval of the lawgiver.

"Common rights" are common law rights.
In a democracy, there is absolutely no need to claim the right to live. In the same manner, people can move residence and travel without submitting mobility claim. These are natural rights. To claim them would insult democracy and be self-degradation. .
All democracies have done these things. Those rights as all others are never natural, but are required for their maintenance of a continual fights. There is very much a nedd to claim the right to live, since that is taken in the hands of the state democracy or otherwise.
gad-fly
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Re: Natural Right is the Fountain of all Freedoms

Post by gad-fly »

Sculptor1 wrote: July 19th, 2020, 11:40 am
All democracies have done these things. Those rights as all others are never natural, but are required for their maintenance of a continual fights. There is very much a nedd to claim the right to live, since that is taken in the hands of the state democracy or otherwise.
All democracies? Have you also included the People's Democracy of North Korea? If so, I would suggest you to be more picky. Wish you peace, living under a genuine democracy.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Natural Right is the Fountain of all Freedoms

Post by Sculptor1 »

gad-fly wrote: July 19th, 2020, 11:53 am
Sculptor1 wrote: July 19th, 2020, 11:40 am
All democracies have done these things. Those rights as all others are never natural, but are required for their maintenance of a continual fights. There is very much a nedd to claim the right to live, since that is taken in the hands of the state democracy or otherwise.
All democracies? Have you also included the People's Democracy of North Korea? If so, I would suggest you to be more picky. Wish you peace, living under a genuine democracy.
I meant all democracies restrict movement and deny the right to life.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Natural Right is the Fountain of all Freedoms

Post by Sculptor1 »

gad-fly wrote: July 19th, 2020, 11:53 am Wish you peace, living under a genuine democracy.
There are no genuine democracies
GE Morton
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Re: Natural Right is the Fountain of all Freedoms

Post by GE Morton »

gad-fly wrote: July 19th, 2020, 11:35 am
I don't know who you mean by the lawgiver. Do you mean God?
Of course not. A lawgiver is any individual or group who has the power to proclaim laws and enforce them --- a king, warlord, dictator, senate, parliament, city council.
Public approval is reflected by the elected legislature before turning into legal right.
No law of public policy ever has the approval of more than some fraction of the public --- often a small fraction. For example, in the US "Obamacare" was favored by 39% of the public, opposed by 51% when it was passed (the remainder would be "no opinion").

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epoll ... -1130.html
So you have identified your created "common right" as '"common law right". I am afraid "common law right" is not what you intend it to mean. I leave you to look it up yourself.
"Definition of common-law right: a right that derives from common-law custom and usage"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/diction ... aw%20right

That definition is correct. But you have to look into what were those customs and usages. I gave a summary earlier.
gad-fly
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Re: Natural Right is the Fountain of all Freedoms

Post by gad-fly »

GE Morton wrote: July 19th, 2020, 2:51 pm
"Definition of common-law right: a right that derives from common-law custom and usage"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/diction ... aw%20right

That definition is correct. But you have to look into what were those customs and usages. I gave a summary earlier.
Definition correct.

From your above link.
Definition of common law: the body of law developed in England primarily from judicial decisions based on custom and precedent, unwritten in statute or code, and constituting the basis of the English legal system.

Apparently common law and continental law (written in statute or code), separately and in conjunction, give rise to legal rights, and vice versa. It is a moot point which right you are more comfortable with.

In Wikipedia.
Natural and legal rights are two types of rights. Legal rights are those bestowed onto a person by a given legal system.

Time to move on. Leave Legal right for another thread.
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