The Origin of the Government
- pearlrik
- New Trial Member
- Posts: 6
- Joined: September 28th, 2020, 1:47 pm
The Origin of the Government
1. The Force theory - "The state was born of force".
2. Evolutionary Theory- developed out of the early family.
3. The divine right theory- "Divine right to rule".
4. The Social Contract theory- the state arose out of a voluntary act of free people.
I looked into each one of them and am I the only one that is wholly unsatisfied with these theories?
Has there really been no philosopher that has come up with a better explanation?
And what do the people of this forum think of it? What is your idea of how the state/government arose?
-
- Posts: 10339
- Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm
Re: The Origin of the Government
In assessing these theories, did you assume that they are mutually exclusive and that you had to pick each one in turn for individual consideration?pearlrik wrote:I looked into each one of them and am I the only one that is wholly unsatisfied with these theories?
- Arjen
- Posts: 467
- Joined: January 16th, 2019, 4:53 am
- Favorite Philosopher: Immanuel Kant
Re: The Origin of the Government
Cheers
~Immanuel Kant
- Sculptor1
- Posts: 7148
- Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am
Re: The Origin of the Government
Clearly no amount of evidence can be brought about to answer definitively.pearlrik wrote: ↑September 28th, 2020, 1:56 pm If I search for the theory of 'the origin of the government', or the 'origin of the state', mostly only 4 theories come up.
1. The Force theory - "The state was born of force".
2. Evolutionary Theory- developed out of the early family.
3. The divine right theory- "Divine right to rule".
4. The Social Contract theory- the state arose out of a voluntary act of free people.
I looked into each one of them and am I the only one that is wholly unsatisfied with these theories?
Has there really been no philosopher that has come up with a better explanation?
And what do the people of this forum think of it? What is your idea of how the state/government arose?
And the idea that there was one pristine original government is absurd.
All four can be true in different degrees, all contributing to the evolution of governments.
Obviously (3) came rather late - a post hoc justification of leadership.
(4) Is somewhat mis-stated. Social Contract theory is more about the relationship between rights and obligations, which still apply whether or not the "contract" was ever entered into voluntarily.
You might want to look at Thomas Hobbes an Jean-Jacques Rousseau.
2) Since we evolved from primates it is worth looking into Bonobo and Chimpanzee society to see how they do it. There is no doubt they have social arrangements and group dynamics which involve family, extended family and friendship which bond large groups.
Anthropology can furnish examples of "governing" small scale societies. All of us came from hunter/gatherers, and there is a multitude of strategies to look at.
- pearlrik
- New Trial Member
- Posts: 6
- Joined: September 28th, 2020, 1:47 pm
- pearlrik
- New Trial Member
- Posts: 6
- Joined: September 28th, 2020, 1:47 pm
Re: The Origin of the Government
This is exactly my angle, and I have read about the chimpanzees already by reading Jane Goodall. You seem to have a similar angle that it should be analyzed from the chimpanzee communities. But has there been no scientist/philosopher that has actually written a book about it, I mean, bridging the gap between chimpanzee communities and human societies?Sculptor1 wrote: ↑September 29th, 2020, 5:31 am
2) Since we evolved from primates it is worth looking into Bonobo and Chimpanzee society to see how they do it. There is no doubt they have social arrangements and group dynamics which involve family, extended family and friendship which bond large groups.
Anthropology can furnish examples of "governing" small scale societies. All of us came from hunter/gatherers, and there is a multitude of strategies to look at.
- pearlrik
- New Trial Member
- Posts: 6
- Joined: September 28th, 2020, 1:47 pm
Re: The Origin of the Government
Not really, although I find the divine theory not really that exciting.Steve3007 wrote: ↑September 29th, 2020, 3:42 amIn assessing these theories, did you assume that they are mutually exclusive and that you had to pick each one in turn for individual consideration?pearlrik wrote:I looked into each one of them and am I the only one that is wholly unsatisfied with these theories?
There is also a theory that states arose because of the need to regulate irrigation, which seems a little simplistic.
-
- Posts: 10339
- Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm
Re: The Origin of the Government
Well, I think if there was one thing that could be identified as creating a need for government it would be the invention of agriculture and the consequent development of societies.pearlrik wrote:There is also a theory that states arose because of the need to regulate irrigation, which seems a little simplistic.
- Arjen
- Posts: 467
- Joined: January 16th, 2019, 4:53 am
- Favorite Philosopher: Immanuel Kant
Re: The Origin of the Government
Then there is no reason to hold back.
I always felt that the social contract theory was a good way to define the set of all theories concerning the matter. All forms of government have in common that there is a concensus concerning the rules and habits. Although all systems do have their discontents and criminals ofcourse.
Perhaps an interesting book for you is Hobbes' Leviathan. In this he describes an original position of "all against all" (bellum omnium contra omnes). This leads to "bodies of men" working together in a less than desirable way, to form a "leviathan" in order to be more competative and oppose other "bodies of men". Personally, I have always felt Rousseau's sovereign was a much nicer thought. I especially enjoy his noble savage. But, it will certainly be an interesting read.
Kropotkin might also be interesting. Although a boring writer, his ideas are quite interesting. His anarchism is ofcourse directly political and it does get right down to how society is made up and the self correction nature of revolution. His mutual aid is written as an answer to Darwin's survival of the fittest, but it describes in great detail social animal interactions. That might be insightful for you. He is a biologist, besides a writer, philosopher and refusing-to-be-figurehead for revolutions.
~Immanuel Kant
- Sculptor1
- Posts: 7148
- Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am
Re: The Origin of the Government
You need to delve into anthroplogy and archaeology.pearlrik wrote: ↑September 29th, 2020, 6:41 amThis is exactly my angle, and I have read about the chimpanzees already by reading Jane Goodall. You seem to have a similar angle that it should be analyzed from the chimpanzee communities. But has there been no scientist/philosopher that has actually written a book about it, I mean, bridging the gap between chimpanzee communities and human societies?Sculptor1 wrote: ↑September 29th, 2020, 5:31 am
2) Since we evolved from primates it is worth looking into Bonobo and Chimpanzee society to see how they do it. There is no doubt they have social arrangements and group dynamics which involve family, extended family and friendship which bond large groups.
Anthropology can furnish examples of "governing" small scale societies. All of us came from hunter/gatherers, and there is a multitude of strategies to look at.
It is a massive story with no simple or monumental answer. It did not happen once but many times in different ways.
This is a lifetime's study.
Philosophers are not really equipped to answer, except in theoretical terms.
- Sculptor1
- Posts: 7148
- Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am
Re: The Origin of the Government
Looking at landcsape patterns can show the scale of early societies.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 6506000213
Or looking at early civilisations..
https://books.google.co.uk/books?
Depends what exactly you want
hl=en&lr=&id=W9OFBw7yGZkC&oi=fnd&pg=PA13&dq=archaeology+of+early+society&ots=378ihuxJRn&sig=15DzqTW1d90QpykrgbdZ2TnSoYs#v=onepage&q=archaeology%20of%20early%20society&f=false
https://www.nature.com/articles/news.2010.537
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/ ... .2009.0207
- Sculptor1
- Posts: 7148
- Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am
Re: The Origin of the Government
The Domestication of Europe: structure and contingency in Neolithic societies (1990)
On the Surface: Çatalhöyük 1993-95 (1996) Ian Hodder, Cambridge: McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research and British Institute of Archaeology at Ankara. ISBN 0-9519420-3-4.
-
- Posts: 2138
- Joined: May 9th, 2012, 3:13 pm
Re: The Origin of the Government
The archaeological record shows two developments that occurred at about the same time (the time-line cannot be differentiated by the record). These are the development of organized warfare, and that of major irrigation projects. The development of "civilization" (if not governmemt) appears to have occurred in river valleys surrounded by deserts -- the Nile, the Tigris-Euphraties- the Indus - the Yangtze -- central Mexico. As farming developed and the population grew, people were confined by the environment. The record shows the development of irrigation projects, which were large enough that they must have resulted from large-scale cooperative efforts, and must have been regulated by some sort of "government".
At about the same time there is evidence of large-scale military activities: armies, arms manufacturing, etc. Did the cooperative and authoritarian nature of irrigation projects lead to the development of military infrastructure to defend them; or did the population pressure that led to the development of large-scale militaries lead to the organizational infrastructure necessary for canal and dam building? It's unclear.
- Marvin_Edwards
- Posts: 1106
- Joined: April 14th, 2020, 9:34 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: William James
- Contact:
Re: The Origin of the Government
2. That would likely persist as the family extended into a tribe. However, there would begin to be competition between brothers or between the young and the elders that would select new monarchs based on strength.
(Matriarchies would likely arise in geographical areas where food was plentiful and there was no need to fight for food, e.g. Hawaii. But males would be in charge where battles with other tribes were required to feed the tribe).
3. Communities would become stable by hiring knights to protect their property and the knights would select kings.
4. Republics would appear next as knights rebelled against kings who abused their powers. And Parliaments made of knights would form to advise the king.
5. Democracy would come next as the knights protection became unnecessary and the knights reverted to property owners.
6. Constitutional governments would arise naturally from the Magna Carta as the agreements expanded beyond the knights and kings to cover all of the people.
7. The people who mattered would expand as revolutions applied the guillotine to property owners and kings.
8. As economic stability spread the men extended the right of participation to women.
5.
- h_k_s
- Posts: 1243
- Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
- Location: Rocky Mountains
Re: The Origin of the Government
If you rely on history and archaeology, then Sargon The Great of Akkad must be your earliest reference.pearlrik wrote: ↑September 28th, 2020, 1:56 pm If I search for the theory of 'the origin of the government', or the 'origin of the state', mostly only 4 theories come up.
1. The Force theory - "The state was born of force".
2. Evolutionary Theory- developed out of the early family.
3. The divine right theory- "Divine right to rule".
4. The Social Contract theory- the state arose out of a voluntary act of free people.
I looked into each one of them and am I the only one that is wholly unsatisfied with these theories?
Has there really been no philosopher that has come up with a better explanation?
And what do the people of this forum think of it? What is your idea of how the state/government arose?
He was a conqueror who exacted tributes from vassal cities.
Of course in pre history these cities sprang up somehow on their own. So it's anyone's guess as to how or why.
But generally speaking, governments are born of blood and insurrection.
The USA is a prime example. British monarchy. Colonial rebellion. Assistance from a French counter monarch. Geographic distance making resupply difficult. A naval blockade by the French. Yorktown. Independence. A confederation agreement followed by a democratic republic constitution. And now you see what we have evolved to.
The opposite of the above is the tribal war lords of Afghanistan and northern Pakistan and Somalia. There chieftains emerge from a warlike clannish environment. Theyre called the tribal areas.
Government evolves everywhere one way or another to fill a need. The need is cooperation.
2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month
Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023
Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023