Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

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Sculptor1
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Sculptor1 » October 11th, 2020, 5:16 pm

I think you really need to read properly.
I did not say the government control the media, but the "rich and powerful" who control the parties.

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Arjen
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Arjen » October 12th, 2020, 1:57 am

With you, I might not be able to get a proper coversation going. I meant how you think it can improve.

Concerning the media: I do think that there is media control. The question is who is controlling and why. I actually made a topic about that here. Perhaps you will like it:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=16892
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LuckyR
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by LuckyR » October 12th, 2020, 2:23 am

Arjen wrote:
October 11th, 2020, 4:10 am
What kind of thing do you think could cause that direction towards the extremes? Something is offsetting the balance, right?
In the pre Gingrich era, the left and right wings of the Democratic and Republican parties overlapped. That is southern Democrats were farther right than some northeastern Republicans. Now the center is hollowed out, for the reason chewybrian cited, and the party members are at their extremes.
"As usual... it depends."

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Arjen
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Arjen » October 12th, 2020, 2:27 am

Do you also think the news is the cause for the increasing schism @LuckyR?
Or are there more factors involved?
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
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LuckyR
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by LuckyR » October 12th, 2020, 2:49 am

Arjen wrote:
October 12th, 2020, 2:27 am
Do you also think the news is the cause for the increasing schism @LuckyR?
Or are there more factors involved?
If by news you mean traditional sources, then no, it isn't a cause, it is an effect

If you mean Interweb clickbait masquerading as news, then yes it is a large cause. As you are perhaps aware, there are algorithms designed to show you similar but slightly more interesting (read: controversial or fringe) articles when you search a topic. So if you get your information online, you are likely to be enticed to follow a trail of ever more fringe opinions that agree with you.
"As usual... it depends."

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Arjen
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Arjen » October 12th, 2020, 3:08 am

LuckyR wrote:
October 12th, 2020, 2:49 am
If by news you mean traditional sources, then no, it isn't a cause, it is an effect
An effect of what?
If you mean Interweb clickbait masquerading as news, then yes it is a large cause. As you are perhaps aware, there are algorithms designed to show you similar but slightly more interesting (read: controversial or fringe) articles when you search a topic. So if you get your information online, you are likely to be enticed to follow a trail of ever more fringe opinions that agree with you.
I have seen those, but I think the major news agencies are more responsible than the internet clickbait, to be honest. This belongs in that other topic we are discussing this in.
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
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chewybrian
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by chewybrian » October 12th, 2020, 4:49 am

Arjen wrote:
October 11th, 2020, 10:22 am
That is an interesting take on things. I would expect that, even with a fairness doctrine being repealed, truth would come before political views. Do you experience the news as still showing facts, or not? And do you think the media is the cause for the escalating schism?

There are facts scattered throughout every output from the media, of course. But, there is intent in almost every case to drive the end user to the desired conclusion. This can be done by selectively giving some of the facts and leaving out others, or by artificially attaching excessive importance to the facts that fit the desired conclusion and discounting those that do not. Even worse, there is often an emotional element used to play the public. "Stay tuned for some news that will really make you angry", etc... They preface what they are going to tell you by also telling you how it should make you feel. You are primed to respond in the way they desire you to respond before you even get the information (which is further not delivered impartially and fully).

I don't think the media is notably better or worse than any other industry or element of society which has sold out to the interests of the rich. Everything is (mostly) an oligopoly, or, if it is something new, will very quickly become one. Even those elements of society that might be thought to be outside of finance in principle are engulfed and monetized in practice. So, education, health care, transportation, the legal system, law enforcement, and everything else operates mostly for the benefit of the very rich at the expense of everyone else.

This is what is happening:

Image

Why? It's complicated, but the simple answer is that people are gullible and too quick to sell out. Capital is taking more than its fair share of the spoils, and they are blaming the victim and diverting attention, and they are surprisingly successful at doing so. We are fooled into thinking we don't deserve to be rewarded for doubling our productivity because the boss says he can just as easily "uberize" the efforts of some other poor slob who is worse off and willing to sell out for less.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."

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chewybrian
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by chewybrian » October 12th, 2020, 5:04 am

Sculptor1 wrote:
October 11th, 2020, 5:14 pm
Arjen wrote:
October 11th, 2020, 5:07 pm
Fine. How could that approve in your opinion?
Olus: what gave you the idea the USA government controls the media?
"approve"??
Are you really asking a question about control of the media? Are you 12?
It is much more logical and productive to begin with a kind assumption as a default position when you know nothing about the other person. It seems your assumptions and causing you to be angry, but I am thinking you would not prefer to be angry, so why form such assumptions? I was assuming English might not be this person's first language, and that they were earnest in trying to learn. Isn't asking questions "doing" philosophy? I might choose to assume they might not have read 100 books of philosophy, or, if so, they might not have read the same ones I read. They may have a very different perspective on the world, which could help me learn something new if I keep my mind open.

Is there some serious risk to taking the kind view? Someone might take advantage of me once in a while or make me look silly. So what? If my intentions are true, I have no need to be embarrassed or feel small for trying to learn and trying to be good. But, the possible payoff seems more than worth that small risk. I might learn something or help someone else learn, and that's why I am here in the first place.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."

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Arjen
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Arjen » October 12th, 2020, 5:09 am

[/quote]@chewybrian That is an interesting post. I have a question: Is everything monetised, or politicised? Both? Which came first?

Also: I would enjoy your thoughts here, because I think that you have the general picture, but are missing the cause:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=16892
Chewie wrote: It is much more logical and productive to begin with a kind assumption as a default position when you know nothing about the other person. It seems your assumptions and causing you to be angry, but I am thinking you would not prefer to be angry, so why form such assumptions?
An emotional response is the aim of propaganda. When people are not thinking, they can be led away from the truth. Always increase your research when you notice this in yourself!
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant

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Sculptor1
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Sculptor1 » October 12th, 2020, 6:28 am

chewybrian wrote:
October 12th, 2020, 4:49 am

Image
Milton Friedman (/ˈfriːdmən/; July 31, 1912 – November 16, 2006) was an American economist who received the 1976 Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences for his research on consumption analysis, monetary history and theory and the complexity of stabilization policy.

It is no co-incidence that the division in the graph co-incides exactly with this other event.

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chewybrian
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by chewybrian » October 12th, 2020, 7:02 am

Sculptor1 wrote:
October 12th, 2020, 6:26 am
I've seen your so-called understaning of "philosophy".
According to the urban dictionary, "staning" means obsessing excessively over a particular person. So, evidently, you think I fail to obsess to a proper level over one particular philosopher, then? This is clearly false, as I am obviously obsessed with Epictetus to a rather ridiculous extreme!

There are many kinds of philosophy, and who is to say which is better? You seem to prefer logic over dialectical reasoning, despite sometimes claiming to be working to engage others in a Socratic dialogue. But both types, and perhaps all types of reasoning or philosophy have their moments where they shine or fall flat.

I use philosophy as a way to understand myself first, and the world second. I am mostly concerned with psychology through philosophy. I learned self-improvement and worked my way through some serious personal problems by way of philosophy. Is this purpose invalid, then, because someone else uses philosophy for their own purpose? Is my preference silly because they think theirs is not, and it differs from mine? It's not silly to me because it is useful to me. What is wise to you could seem silly to me only because we have different needs. But, so what?
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."

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Arjen
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Arjen » October 12th, 2020, 8:00 am

chewybrian wrote:
October 12th, 2020, 7:02 am
I use philosophy as a way to understand myself first, and the world second. I am mostly concerned with psychology through philosophy. I learned self-improvement and worked my way through some serious personal problems by way of philosophy. Is this purpose invalid, then, because someone else uses philosophy for their own purpose? Is my preference silly because they think theirs is not, and it differs from mine? It's not silly to me because it is useful to me. What is wise to you could seem silly to me only because we have different needs. But, so what?
I applaud your efforts. Perhaps you can start a topic about one of the books you read concerning philosophy? It certainly is important to understand the workings in the mind in order to interpret the world, after all.
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant

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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Marvin_Edwards » October 12th, 2020, 5:01 pm

In the U.S. there are many special interest groups, but they usually align themselves into Republican or Democrat because a single party has more clout. There are many independent parties, like Libertarians, Socialists, the Green Party, but when they run their own candidates they are spoilers for the main parties. When there is a close race, their splinter candidates get blamed for taking votes away from the major party.

The Democrats and Republicans also compete at the level of each state, for control of their legislature and/or the governorship. When you get to local elections I think you'll find a larger number of Independents.

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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Marvin_Edwards » October 12th, 2020, 5:09 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
October 12th, 2020, 6:28 am
chewybrian wrote:
October 12th, 2020, 4:49 am

Image
Milton Friedman (/ˈfriːdmən/; July 31, 1912 – November 16, 2006) was an American economist who received the 1976 Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences for his research on consumption analysis, monetary history and theory and the complexity of stabilization policy.

It is no co-incidence that the division in the graph co-incides exactly with this other event.
But I think Friedman's presumption of self-regulation within free-markets led to the financial collapse in 2008. (See PBS Frontline special "The Warning" here: https://www.pbs.org/video/frontline-the-warning/ )

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Sculptor1
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Sculptor1 » October 12th, 2020, 5:17 pm

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 12th, 2020, 5:09 pm
Sculptor1 wrote:
October 12th, 2020, 6:28 am


Milton Friedman (/ˈfriːdmən/; July 31, 1912 – November 16, 2006) was an American economist who received the 1976 Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences for his research on consumption analysis, monetary history and theory and the complexity of stabilization policy.

It is no co-incidence that the division in the graph co-incides exactly with this other event.
But I think Friedman's presumption of self-regulation within free-markets led to the financial collapse in 2008. (See PBS Frontline special "The Warning" here: https://www.pbs.org/video/frontline-the-warning/ )
Friedman's monetarism has meant that the number of billionarries has tripled in the UK since 2008, where unemployment, homelessness has increases whilst job security has declined.
His obsession with the deficit has created a situation where public spending has impoverished western nations, whilst increasing inequality.
You should read Stephanie Kelton "The deficit myth" I think you would like it. She makes economics easy and interesting to read.

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