Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

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Marvin_Edwards
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Marvin_Edwards » October 12th, 2020, 8:24 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
October 12th, 2020, 5:17 pm
Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 12th, 2020, 5:09 pm


But I think Friedman's presumption of self-regulation within free-markets led to the financial collapse in 2008. (See PBS Frontline special "The Warning" here: https://www.pbs.org/video/frontline-the-warning/ )
Friedman's monetarism has meant that the number of billionarries has tripled in the UK since 2008, where unemployment, homelessness has increases whilst job security has declined.
His obsession with the deficit has created a situation where public spending has impoverished western nations, whilst increasing inequality.
You should read Stephanie Kelton "The deficit myth" I think you would like it. She makes economics easy and interesting to read.
That would be a hard read for me. I used to be a member of the Concord Coalition, back when they used to advocates for a balanced budget amendment. However, the covid-19 epidemic has convinced me that there are emergencies that can only be solved by printing money and giving it to people who lost their jobs. It is simpler to let them pay their rent and buy their groceries at the store rather than have long lines giving out free food. I mean, the grocery stores are already there with a distribution system in place, but the food banks are limited and must be expanded. Much simpler to move money around than moving groceries.

Syamsu
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Syamsu » October 12th, 2020, 9:57 pm

The key political difference between the Netherlands and the USA is in the elocterate. There is still a large contingent of creationists in the USA, while in the Netherlands materialists predominate.

In creationism there is room for emotion, the spirit. For God, and the American spirit. It is much more emotional. Things like giving due credit to police, fireman, healthcare workers, the military, and veterans, etc. This kind of emotion is actually a main element in the working of the USA.

While with materialists, emotions play no significant role, because emotions aren't material.

The Republican party is the creationist party. The Democrat party is the materialist party. It is really only the Republicans who are American in the emotional sense of the word. There is still a significant percentage of creationists in the Democrat party, but they take a back seat, as good but dumb people.

There is a disconnect between the people and the governmnent in the Netherlands. It is reallly more of an expertocracy, elitist form of government. People vote, but then the experts decide what to do with the vote.

PVV, party for freedom, wants to ban the Quran. Big party. So it means, there is some kind of idea in the Netherlands that freedom of opinion is a good thing, but total cluelessness about what that actually means. It is because the whole concept of personal opinion does not figure in materialism. Materialism only validates the concept of facts, it does not validate the concept of personal opinions. There is general suppression of freedom of opinion in the Netherlands.

Also in the background of the Netherlands is the European Union, which is even more materialist, expertocratic, than the national government.

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Sculptor1
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Sculptor1 » October 13th, 2020, 6:21 am

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 12th, 2020, 5:09 pm
Sculptor1 wrote:
October 12th, 2020, 6:28 am


Milton Friedman (/ˈfriːdmən/; July 31, 1912 – November 16, 2006) was an American economist who received the 1976 Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences for his research on consumption analysis, monetary history and theory and the complexity of stabilization policy.

It is no co-incidence that the division in the graph co-incides exactly with this other event.
But I think Friedman's presumption of self-regulation within free-markets led to the financial collapse in 2008. (See PBS Frontline special "The Warning" here: https://www.pbs.org/video/frontline-the-warning/ )
The video is interesting but a bit pedestrian to spend a whole hour on.
Alan Greenspan - the architech of disaster.
What's needed is somepne in the political sphere who can take on these gurus. Greenspan and Friedman. ******** baffles the brains. These people are led by ideology, not reason or evidence.
Rand is a second rate novelist, not a philospher. She was a reaction against the government of Germany, not a serious philosopher. You cannot carry hared into reasoned philosophy without passing on your chaos.

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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Marvin_Edwards » October 13th, 2020, 7:55 am

Sculptor1 wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 6:21 am
Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 12th, 2020, 5:09 pm


But I think Friedman's presumption of self-regulation within free-markets led to the financial collapse in 2008. (See PBS Frontline special "The Warning" here: https://www.pbs.org/video/frontline-the-warning/ )
The video is interesting but a bit pedestrian to spend a whole hour on.
Alan Greenspan - the architech of disaster.
What's needed is somepne in the political sphere who can take on these gurus. Greenspan and Friedman. ******** baffles the brains. These people are led by ideology, not reason or evidence.
Rand is a second rate novelist, not a philospher. She was a reaction against the government of Germany, not a serious philosopher. You cannot carry hared into reasoned philosophy without passing on your chaos.
Oops. Did I mix Friedman with Greenspan? Sorry about that. Friedman wrote the introduction to my copy of "The Road to Serfdom" by Hayek.

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Sculptor1
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Sculptor1 » October 13th, 2020, 7:59 am

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 7:55 am
Sculptor1 wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 6:21 am


The video is interesting but a bit pedestrian to spend a whole hour on.
Alan Greenspan - the architech of disaster.
What's needed is somepne in the political sphere who can take on these gurus. Greenspan and Friedman. ******** baffles the brains. These people are led by ideology, not reason or evidence.
Rand is a second rate novelist, not a philospher. She was a reaction against the government of Germany, not a serious philosopher. You cannot carry hared into reasoned philosophy without passing on your chaos.
Oops. Did I mix Friedman with Greenspan? Sorry about that. Friedman wrote the introduction to my copy of "The Road to Serfdom" by Hayek.
Yes. But no matter.
They are all horses of the same colour. And since their particular brand of economic ideology has got its grips onto the reins of power inequality, and poverty have increased massively, whilst the rich have benefited from tax cuts, and more money than they know how to deal with. Educational standards for ordinary people have declined, and infrastructure has suffered.

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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Marvin_Edwards » October 13th, 2020, 1:34 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 7:59 am
Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 7:55 am


Oops. Did I mix Friedman with Greenspan? Sorry about that. Friedman wrote the introduction to my copy of "The Road to Serfdom" by Hayek.
Yes. But no matter.
They are all horses of the same colour. And since their particular brand of economic ideology has got its grips onto the reins of power inequality, and poverty have increased massively, whilst the rich have benefited from tax cuts, and more money than they know how to deal with. Educational standards for ordinary people have declined, and infrastructure has suffered.
Indeed.

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Arjen
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Arjen » October 13th, 2020, 2:56 pm

@Syamsu How do you know so much about Dutch politics?
There is a disconnect between the people and the governmnent in the Netherlands. It is reallly more of an expertocracy, elitist form of government. People vote, but then the experts decide what to do with the vote.
If only!
The people in the parties are normally not experts!

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 12th, 2020, 5:01 pm
In the U.S. there are many special interest groups, but they usually align themselves into Republican or Democrat because a single party has more clout. There are many independent parties, like Libertarians, Socialists, the Green Party, but when they run their own candidates they are spoilers for the main parties. When there is a close race, their splinter candidates get blamed for taking votes away from the major party.

The Democrats and Republicans also compete at the level of each state, for control of their legislature and/or the governorship. When you get to local elections I think you'll find a larger number of Independents.
Do you suppose it is possible to start a 3rd federal level party? For example a party for more social reforms in the sense of better health care and schooling for everyone?
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant

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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Marvin_Edwards » October 13th, 2020, 4:14 pm

Arjen wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 2:56 pm
Do you suppose it is possible to start a 3rd federal level party? For example a party for more social reforms in the sense of better health care and schooling for everyone?
That's the Democrats.

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Arjen
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Arjen » October 13th, 2020, 5:36 pm

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 4:14 pm
Arjen wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 2:56 pm
Do you suppose it is possible to start a 3rd federal level party? For example a party for more social reforms in the sense of better health care and schooling for everyone?
That's the Democrats.
Perhaps it was a bad example.
New ezample:
A green party focussing thorium reactors as a way to combar global heating, increasing trade with south America and banning plastics from society or something.

Would a 3rd party to offer an alternative on federal level work?

Also: BLM doesn't appear to be with the dems, even if the dems seem to want that.
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant

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Marvin_Edwards
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Marvin_Edwards » October 13th, 2020, 5:56 pm

Arjen wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 5:36 pm
Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 4:14 pm


That's the Democrats.
Perhaps it was a bad example.
New ezample:
A green party focussing thorium reactors as a way to combar global heating, increasing trade with south America and banning plastics from society or something.

Would a 3rd party to offer an alternative on federal level work?

Also: BLM doesn't appear to be with the dems, even if the dems seem to want that.
The problem is that if BLM floated their own candidate they would end up with another season of Trumpville. Same goes for environmental issues. Democrats own that, and if the party splits, the anti-science party (Republicans) continue to rule.

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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Sculptor1 » October 13th, 2020, 6:31 pm

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 4:14 pm
Arjen wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 2:56 pm
Do you suppose it is possible to start a 3rd federal level party? For example a party for more social reforms in the sense of better health care and schooling for everyone?
That's the Democrats.
LOL.
It should be the Democrats. But Deomocrats are also at the mercy of bonkrupt economic theory that has led to our generational inequality. That has been as bad under Obama, and Clinton as under the Bushes, and the blonde clown.

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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Marvin_Edwards » October 13th, 2020, 8:09 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 6:31 pm
Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 4:14 pm


That's the Democrats.
LOL.
It should be the Democrats. But Deomocrats are also at the mercy of bonkrupt economic theory that has led to our generational inequality. That has been as bad under Obama, and Clinton as under the Bushes, and the blonde clown.
Yeah, Clinton was taken in along with everyone else. The banks were making such huge profits that everyone assumed they knew what they were doing. But bad loans were made by bank officers who were rewarded for quantity instead of quality, because the banks could package them and pass off their risk to investors, risks which were inexplicably given triple A ratings by rating agencies that were paid by the banks. When the loans higher payments kicked in and people started defaulting, the bottom fell out of the housing market, and the economy collapsed.

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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Arjen » October 14th, 2020, 1:29 am

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 5:56 pm
Arjen wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 5:36 pm


Perhaps it was a bad example.
New ezample:
A green party focussing thorium reactors as a way to combar global heating, increasing trade with south America and banning plastics from society or something.

Would a 3rd party to offer an alternative on federal level work?

Also: BLM doesn't appear to be with the dems, even if the dems seem to want that.
The problem is that if BLM floated their own candidate they would end up with another season of Trumpville. Same goes for environmental issues. Democrats own that, and if the party splits, the anti-science party (Republicans) continue to rule.
I was trying to discuss that likely any party program would get votes from both dems and reps. It being a new party. It could have some things in common, an overlap. But multiple parties would end with cooperation and compromises. Especially with that schism that @chewybrian was describing, leaving the middle bare. A Christian democrat party perhaos, or social with empasis on norms and values.
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant

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Sculptor1
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Sculptor1 » October 14th, 2020, 4:58 am

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 8:09 pm
Sculptor1 wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 6:31 pm


LOL.
It should be the Democrats. But Deomocrats are also at the mercy of bonkrupt economic theory that has led to our generational inequality. That has been as bad under Obama, and Clinton as under the Bushes, and the blonde clown.
Yeah, Clinton was taken in along with everyone else. The banks were making such huge profits that everyone assumed they knew what they were doing. But bad loans were made by bank officers who were rewarded for quantity instead of quality, because the banks could package them and pass off their risk to investors, risks which were inexplicably given triple A ratings by rating agencies that were paid by the banks. When the loans higher payments kicked in and people started defaulting, the bottom fell out of the housing market, and the economy collapsed.
The bonus system got to such a frenzy that even low risk borrowerd were being sold sub-prime because the bounses were bigger for the salesmen.
What little regulation existed was ignored or flouted.

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Sculptor1
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Sculptor1 » October 14th, 2020, 5:08 am

Arjen wrote:
October 14th, 2020, 1:29 am
Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 5:56 pm


The problem is that if BLM floated their own candidate they would end up with another season of Trumpville. Same goes for environmental issues. Democrats own that, and if the party splits, the anti-science party (Republicans) continue to rule.
I was trying to discuss that likely any party program would get votes from both dems and reps. It being a new party. It could have some things in common, an overlap. But multiple parties would end with cooperation and compromises. Especially with that schism that @chewybrian was describing, leaving the middle bare. A Christian democrat party perhaos, or social with empasis on norms and values.
The two existing parties define the middle and that is the main battle ground. However left and right have given way to indentity and nationalism. In this way the right wing has gained votes and seats from the grounds traditionally inhabited by the left such as working people; especially white working people of low education who have swallowed racist tropes through fear.
The Democrats already own the "christian democratic" arena.
Christians in the US are not like Euro christians. You must remember than in many states christianity validates slavery. Christianity in the US also tends to be very money oriented. and Calvinist tendancies tend to observe that both poverty and wealth are the gifts of god and deserved by those that have no wealth and those that god bestows wealth upon. Godliness is close to wealthiness.
That does not characterise all christianity in the US which is diverse. But there are no christian norms as you might have a in a small secular/protestant country like the Netherlands.

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