Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

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Marvin_Edwards
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Marvin_Edwards » October 14th, 2020, 6:53 am

Arjen wrote:
October 14th, 2020, 1:29 am
Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 5:56 pm


The problem is that if BLM floated their own candidate they would end up with another season of Trumpville. Same goes for environmental issues. Democrats own that, and if the party splits, the anti-science party (Republicans) continue to rule.
I was trying to discuss that likely any party program would get votes from both dems and reps. It being a new party. It could have some things in common, an overlap. But multiple parties would end with cooperation and compromises. Especially with that schism that @chewybrian was describing, leaving the middle bare. A Christian democrat party perhaos, or social with empasis on norms and values.
Norms are Republican. Values are Democrats. Old Testament Christians are Republicans. New Testament Christians are Democrats. It's a schism by conservative verses progressive. And in the Trump era, a schism by rumor versus science.

I think the difference is that the compromises and coalitions are happening before the election instead of after.

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Arjen
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Arjen » October 14th, 2020, 9:09 am

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 14th, 2020, 6:53 am
Norms are Republican. Values are Democrats. Old Testament Christians are Republicans. New Testament Christians are Democrats. It's a schism by conservative verses progressive. And in the Trump era, a schism by rumor versus science.
I think that what you should be aware of is that you ASSOCIATE (on an emotional level) All of these things with one side or the other. While it might be a political reality, or necessity, I don't think this is true. For example, especially in the early days of the CCP virus, the WHO was rumors and Trump was Science. However, the news discredits him to such a degree that no one believed him. Like you: rumors vs science...therefore not science. Or: can Christians be progressive? Yes they can. Can values be progressive? Yes they can.

The entire mark of propaganda is to make people choose on an emotional level to not investigate facts. I see Trump, therefore this is not scientific. While even within science, we can find research supporting multiple positions. This is not how the cookie crumbles. Be aware of it!
I think the difference is that the compromises and coalitions are happening before the election instead of after.
This is actually a really interesting perspective Marv. I am curious why that is, actually. I think that it will make a huge difference if the coalitions would be formed after the elections. In The Netherlands our prime minister comes from the largest coalition party normally. Which means that, in the USA, the presidency would be determined in a completely different way. It would make an earth shattering difference. Also: people sometimes let go of ideas on behalf of the coalition. If it is before the voting, how can the vote reflect actual ideas?
If for example a green party has a top candidate, that person would attract a load of votes, or if a technological development (like thorium reactors) is occurring, it might be a reason to vote for parties that want to support this technology for a greener planet. If, for that reason, a green party would get a load of extra votes, that party and it's positions would be much more important. However, in a pre-made coalition, it would likely never come to light that this is the people's choice. And the pre-selected candidate for presidency will likely just sail a pre-set course. Plus, parties that have ideas that possibly COULD align with either dems or reps could shift position. Thus forming (for example) a progressive, green and Christian coalition. Which currently can never form.

What do you all think of that thought?
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant

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Sculptor1
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Sculptor1 » October 14th, 2020, 9:29 am

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 14th, 2020, 6:53 am
Arjen wrote:
October 14th, 2020, 1:29 am

I was trying to discuss that likely any party program would get votes from both dems and reps. It being a new party. It could have some things in common, an overlap. But multiple parties would end with cooperation and compromises. Especially with that schism that @chewybrian was describing, leaving the middle bare. A Christian democrat party perhaos, or social with empasis on norms and values.
Norms are Republican. Values are Democrats. Old Testament Christians are Republicans. New Testament Christians are Democrats. It's a schism by conservative verses progressive. And in the Trump era, a schism by rumor versus science.

I think the difference is that the compromises and coalitions are happening before the election instead of after.
I really think you have a naive and exceptionalist view of American politics.
US democracy is f*cked.

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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Marvin_Edwards » October 14th, 2020, 9:32 am

Sculptor1 wrote:
October 14th, 2020, 9:29 am
Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 14th, 2020, 6:53 am


Norms are Republican. Values are Democrats. Old Testament Christians are Republicans. New Testament Christians are Democrats. It's a schism by conservative verses progressive. And in the Trump era, a schism by rumor versus science.

I think the difference is that the compromises and coalitions are happening before the election instead of after.
I really think you have a naive and exceptionalist view of American politics.
US democracy is f*cked.
Yeah. We really need to elect Martin Sheen.

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Sculptor1
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Sculptor1 » October 14th, 2020, 1:03 pm

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 14th, 2020, 9:32 am
Sculptor1 wrote:
October 14th, 2020, 9:29 am

I really think you have a naive and exceptionalist view of American politics.
US democracy is f*cked.
Yeah. We really need to elect Martin Sheen.
Sadly he's older than the other two candidates!
What you really need is to end Presidential power and devolve power to the House of Rs and the Senate.
The widespread use of Executive Orders over the last four years has made the US look like Hitler's Germany and a laughing stock of the world.
The US population is 330 million. Trump got less than 63 million votes. Has Gil Scott Heron used to say "mandate my ass".
Clinton got 3 million more votes but that is not really a mandate either.
Despite this complete lack of representation Trump has been able to appoint and sack whomsoever he likes to the Whitehouse staff (these people have real power) and sign off arbitrary laws using the EOs with NO scrutiny, and no validation from the rest of government.
And anything passed by government Trump as the power to VETO.

THIS IS INSANE.

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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Marvin_Edwards » October 14th, 2020, 7:31 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
October 14th, 2020, 1:03 pm
Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 14th, 2020, 9:32 am


Yeah. We really need to elect Martin Sheen.
Sadly he's older than the other two candidates!
What you really need is to end Presidential power and devolve power to the House of Rs and the Senate.
The widespread use of Executive Orders over the last four years has made the US look like Hitler's Germany and a laughing stock of the world.
The US population is 330 million. Trump got less than 63 million votes. Has Gil Scott Heron used to say "mandate my ass".
Clinton got 3 million more votes but that is not really a mandate either.
Despite this complete lack of representation Trump has been able to appoint and sack whomsoever he likes to the Whitehouse staff (these people have real power) and sign off arbitrary laws using the EOs with NO scrutiny, and no validation from the rest of government.
And anything passed by government Trump as the power to VETO.

THIS IS INSANE.
Part of the problem is that the Senate is still in Republican hands. The House impeached Trump, but to no avail. Hopefully the Dems will regain the Senate this time.

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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Sculptor1 » October 15th, 2020, 12:40 pm

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 14th, 2020, 7:31 pm
Sculptor1 wrote:
October 14th, 2020, 1:03 pm


Sadly he's older than the other two candidates!
What you really need is to end Presidential power and devolve power to the House of Rs and the Senate.
The widespread use of Executive Orders over the last four years has made the US look like Hitler's Germany and a laughing stock of the world.
The US population is 330 million. Trump got less than 63 million votes. Has Gil Scott Heron used to say "mandate my ass".
Clinton got 3 million more votes but that is not really a mandate either.
Despite this complete lack of representation Trump has been able to appoint and sack whomsoever he likes to the Whitehouse staff (these people have real power) and sign off arbitrary laws using the EOs with NO scrutiny, and no validation from the rest of government.
And anything passed by government Trump as the power to VETO.

THIS IS INSANE.
Part of the problem is that the Senate is still in Republican hands. The House impeached Trump, but to no avail. Hopefully the Dems will regain the Senate this time.
Not sure why you are ignoring the real problems.

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Arjen
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Arjen » October 15th, 2020, 12:49 pm

What are the real problems @Sculptor1 ?
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant

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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Sculptor1 » October 15th, 2020, 2:43 pm

Arjen wrote:
October 15th, 2020, 12:49 pm
What are the real problems @Sculptor1 ?
I've already outlind one or two. See my previous post to him.

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Arjen
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Arjen » October 15th, 2020, 3:34 pm

It reminds me of my comment above:
Arjen wrote: This is actually a really interesting perspective Marv. I am curious why that is, actually. I think that it will make a huge difference if the coalitions would be formed after the elections. In The Netherlands our prime minister comes from the largest coalition party normally. Which means that, in the USA, the presidency would be determined in a completely different way. It would make an earth shattering difference. Also: people sometimes let go of ideas on behalf of the coalition. If it is before the voting, how can the vote reflect actual ideas?
If for example a green party has a top candidate, that person would attract a load of votes, or if a technological development (like thorium reactors) is occurring, it might be a reason to vote for parties that want to support this technology for a greener planet. If, for that reason, a green party would get a load of extra votes, that party and it's positions would be much more important. However, in a pre-made coalition, it would likely never come to light that this is the people's choice. And the pre-selected candidate for presidency will likely just sail a pre-set course. Plus, parties that have ideas that possibly COULD align with either dems or reps could shift position. Thus forming (for example) a progressive, green and Christian coalition. Which currently can never form.
Care to comment on your thoughts about that?
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant

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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Marvin_Edwards » October 15th, 2020, 10:48 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
October 15th, 2020, 12:40 pm
Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 14th, 2020, 7:31 pm


Part of the problem is that the Senate is still in Republican hands. The House impeached Trump, but to no avail. Hopefully the Dems will regain the Senate this time.
Not sure why you are ignoring the real problems.
You mean the problem that we are insane? Not sure what we can do about that. Like I said, things will get better if we have Democrats in charge.

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Sculptor1
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Sculptor1 » October 16th, 2020, 3:41 am

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 15th, 2020, 10:48 pm
Sculptor1 wrote:
October 15th, 2020, 12:40 pm


Not sure why you are ignoring the real problems.
You mean the problem that we are insane?
No I mean executive power for one.
The president is basically King for four years, able to stop any legislation he wants and able to rule by decree.
And an antiquated system of election that places a man with fewer votes in power than a woman with more votes.

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Arjen
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Arjen » October 16th, 2020, 3:46 am

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 15th, 2020, 10:48 pm
You mean the problem that we are insane? Not sure what we can do about that. Like I said, things will get better if we have Democrats in charge.
We should not get off topic too much, because this topic is about comparing democracies to see if either can improve.

However, I do like to say that I don't think things will get better by voting Biden. There is a China collusion going on and, the news is not unbiased anymore, as specified here:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=16892
"Beijing is buying up media outlets and training scores of foreign journalists to ‘tell China’s story well’ – as part of a worldwide propaganda campaign of astonishing scope and ambition."

It would only mean that the news will pretend everything is ok again, because Biden will bend over, where Trump doesn't.
Don't get me wrong: Trump is not a good choice, but in this day and age, his stubborn behaviour is a terribly important thing. He is one of the very few leaders standing between the CCP and a world communist revolution. And, what is worse: people have no clue this is going on.

So, a vote for Biden is a vote for totalitarianism (in a communist "anti"racist jacket). But don't worry, if you vote for Biden, the news will tell you that you made the right choice.
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant

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Sculptor1
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Sculptor1 » October 16th, 2020, 4:11 am

Arjen wrote:
October 16th, 2020, 3:46 am
Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 15th, 2020, 10:48 pm
You mean the problem that we are insane? Not sure what we can do about that. Like I said, things will get better if we have Democrats in charge.
We should not get off topic too much, because this topic is about comparing democracies to see if either can improve.

However, I do like to say that I don't think things will get better by voting Biden. There is a China collusion going on and,
...
OFF TOPIC.
LOL

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Arjen
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Re: Comparing the Dutch and American Democracies

Post by Arjen » October 16th, 2020, 4:34 am

Yeah, it is.
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant

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