LAW

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Sculptor1
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Re: LAW

Post by Sculptor1 »

Jack D Ripper wrote: November 22nd, 2020, 1:28 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: November 22nd, 2020, 6:06 am

Does your one example negate everything I have said?

Then how do you explain how dredful American police are?
How do you explain c.1500 killed by police every year at a rate greater than places like Mexico and Colombia?

What I wrote does not negate what you said, and it was not intended to so so. I think the problem, being systemic, requires a systemic solution rather than a focus on individual officers. The only way this is going to be fixed (if it is going to be fixed) is by changes in policies and procedures and training. Since this is particularly a problem in the United States, looking at almost any other police force in the world may give some answers for how to change things for the better. Of course, some are far better than others on these kinds of things, and looking at the ones that are far better would most likely be the most useful for ideas on how to change the training, procedures, and policies to reduce the problems in the US.

If I had any actual control over these things, I would be looking at other police departments for the specific details of this.
The route of learning from other countries is not going to have any political traction in the US when the main thing politicians tend to do when they hear of police brutality is to say that officers do a hard job and thank them. Such denial does not bode well for asking how does Sweden do it? And the moment anyone even says - there are a few bad apples, they get destroyed by the media.
Seriously I think Judges have to grow some ball and get some convictions. Derek Chauvin has got to go to gaol for a long time, and not get a sdlap on the wrist, and slap on the back by fellow officers.
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Jack D Ripper
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Re: LAW

Post by Jack D Ripper »

Sculptor1 wrote: November 22nd, 2020, 4:08 pm
Jack D Ripper wrote: November 22nd, 2020, 1:28 pm


What I wrote does not negate what you said, and it was not intended to so so. I think the problem, being systemic, requires a systemic solution rather than a focus on individual officers. The only way this is going to be fixed (if it is going to be fixed) is by changes in policies and procedures and training. Since this is particularly a problem in the United States, looking at almost any other police force in the world may give some answers for how to change things for the better. Of course, some are far better than others on these kinds of things, and looking at the ones that are far better would most likely be the most useful for ideas on how to change the training, procedures, and policies to reduce the problems in the US.

If I had any actual control over these things, I would be looking at other police departments for the specific details of this.
The route of learning from other countries is not going to have any political traction in the US when the main thing politicians tend to do when they hear of police brutality is to say that officers do a hard job and thank them. Such denial does not bode well for asking how does Sweden do it? And the moment anyone even says - there are a few bad apples, they get destroyed by the media.
Seriously I think Judges have to grow some ball and get some convictions. Derek Chauvin has got to go to gaol for a long time, and not get a sdlap on the wrist, and slap on the back by fellow officers.

I agree that politicians are a problem in this. They are the ones who can control what policies, training, etc., are required of police by law.


And Derek Chauvin should go to jail for a long time. Apparently, for murder, tax evasion, and likely a fraudulent divorce agreement:


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53508640

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/22/us/d ... fraud.html

https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updat ... ax-evasion

https://apnews.com/56bea6e3d1ea1aaeba129522df43294f


https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/derek ... index.html


https://sports.yahoo.com/judge-rejects- ... 48505.html


He seems like a real piece of work. Not just a thug, but an all-around criminal. The world would be a better place if he had never been born.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence." - David Hume
Ecurb
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Re: LAW

Post by Ecurb »

A horrifying article in this week's New Yorker details the violence perpetrated by the Vallejo, California police. Here's a link:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020 ... led-a-city

From what I can glean by a quick reading, some of the issues contributing to police violence in the U.S. include:

1) The political power of local police. A huge portion of city budget goes to the police and fire departments. When the Vallejo police union wouldn't sanction pay cuts or personnel reduction, the town had to limit other services.

2) The lack of communication between police forces. Apparently, policemen accused of misconduct often resign before being sanctioned or fired and then get police jobs elsewhere.

3) Endemic racism.

City politics in the U.S vary dramatically from city to city. Vallejo (evidently) uses a "city manager" system -- the elected mayor and council people hire a manager who basically runs the city. Unfortunately, in Vallejo the police had more power than the manager (and actually threatened those trying to hold them accountable).

I shouild add that police forces in the U.S. vary dramatically in terms of their professionalism and penchants for violence.
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Sapien
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Re: LAW

Post by Sapien »

Not all shooting incidents sensationalized in the media are unjustified. No matter how unfortunate the outcome, if a person waves a gun around and refuses to disarm themselves then often police officers are justified to fear for their lives and should take action. During incidents of imminent danger, an officer only has a split second to decide and act. If an officer acts rashly out of fear or hate, scrutiny is warranted. If scrutiny is absent or insufficient then protest is warranted. If a protest does not provoke thought and debate it is of little to no consequence.

I do not have all the answers, but I do know the plural of anecdote is not data. Yes, there is still racism in the United States. Yes, the overwhelming majority of Police officers are good people doing a very risky job and deserving of our respect. Yes, there are bad police officers out there and plenty enough evidence to merit scrutiny of law enforcement systems.

We should constantly examine police practices anyway. It is folly to believe we have ever done enough or designed systems so perfectly that no one ever does anything wrong. We do not know everything we should about the causes, prevention or responses to criminal activity and should therefore always seek to improve the systems we have. In a free society, civilian oversight of law enforcement is warranted by the very nature of the undertaking.

I believe everyone deserves equal treatment under the law. Murder, unreasonable search and seizure, and excessive force are already illegal so we may not need more laws. If police or anyone evades the law then the system of accountability needs scrutiny also.

I submit that what needs changing is not the laws of men (or women of course), but the conscience. That is something that can only be changed by conversations like this one. If a person is racist, history clearly demonstrates we are unlikely to change their mind by law or decree. We might change their behavior, but not their mind. That, they must do themselves. For them to do so requires some persuasive effort on our part. It is unlikely a mind will change in one sitting and even less likely that systems or cultures will change by simply being told to do so. Concerned people may have to repeat themselves many times in debates such as this before a thinking person has enough to gnaw on. More minds are changed by gnawing than by hearing anyway. Citizens and good officers must apply persuasive efforts on bad officers in the hope that bad ones change themselves from inside or are removed from the job.

I do not think of myself as shrill and try to avoid it. However, shrill Americans still have a persuasive influence. After all, the shrillness of those opposed to slavery and Jim Crow definitely contributed to their demise.

Respect for law enforcement should not be required, it should be earned. Every day. To do otherwise is to saw on the limb we stand on.
impermanence
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Re: LAW

Post by impermanence »

It's great to hear from all the experts on law enforcement. Until you have walked a mile in their shoes, I find it rather tiresome to read this drivel from people who have no clue what it must be like to be on the frontlines dealing with the outrageous behavior that characterizes so many Americans.

How about considering systemic political corruption and systemic law breaking instead of blaming those who are actually trying to help out. What are you doing to fight crime?

There are problems with everything and everybody all the time. Try to see the good that these people do by putting their lives on the line for us every day and next time you need assistance, don't call 9-1-1, instead, call your friends and discuss how horrible the police are and how they all must have this systemic hatred of everybody.

My god, how incredibly childish!
Ecurb
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Re: LAW

Post by Ecurb »

impermanence wrote: December 13th, 2020, 12:25 am It's great to hear from all the experts on law enforcement. Until you have walked a mile in their shoes, I find it rather tiresome to read this drivel from people who have no clue what it must be like to be on the frontlines dealing with the outrageous behavior that characterizes so many Americans.

How about considering systemic political corruption and systemic law breaking instead of blaming those who are actually trying to help out. What are you doing to fight crime?

There are problems with everything and everybody all the time. Try to see the good that these people do by putting their lives on the line for us every day and next time you need assistance, don't call 9-1-1, instead, call your friends and discuss how horrible the police are and how they all must have this systemic hatred of everybody.

My god, how incredibly childish!
Speaking of childish, impermanence appears to think that nobody but a cop can have an opinion about law enforcement. I assume he also thinks that only soldiers can express opinions about foreign policy, only medical doctors are allowed to discuss disease, and only morons can show an interest in "special education".

Did you read the New Yorker article I linked, impermanence? Are journalists allowed (in your suspect opinion) to investigate police forces?

Your idiotic notion is precisely the problem. The "Blue Wall" of cover-ups and excuses is predicated on the idea that only the police can investigate the police. Grow up!
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LuckyR
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Re: LAW

Post by LuckyR »

impermanence wrote: December 13th, 2020, 12:25 am It's great to hear from all the experts on law enforcement. Until you have walked a mile in their shoes, I find it rather tiresome to read this drivel from people who have no clue what it must be like to be on the frontlines dealing with the outrageous behavior that characterizes so many Americans.

How about considering systemic political corruption and systemic law breaking instead of blaming those who are actually trying to help out. What are you doing to fight crime?

There are problems with everything and everybody all the time. Try to see the good that these people do by putting their lives on the line for us every day and next time you need assistance, don't call 9-1-1, instead, call your friends and discuss how horrible the police are and how they all must have this systemic hatred of everybody.

My god, how incredibly childish!
So you agree that (like everything and everybody) there are individual police officers who are operating out of bounds and should be sanctioned, right? Great. Well, it is a real perception, based on many cases, that officers who behave badly are indicted less frequently and convicted way less frequently than "everybody" else for similar actions. I am not seeing the problem with the conclusion that the police are getting more favorable treatment from their workplace companions, the District Attorneys than you and I. Fair? Many would say: not even close. Sounds like a legit topic for discussion.

As to the crap the police deal with on an ongoing basis, you're right. It would drive many folks to lash out and act unlawfully. Fact is many don't possess the personality to be a law-abiding police officer, unfortunately a group of them carry badges and guns and (no surprise) law breaking tragedies ensue. No doubt it's a tough job, not for everyone, many should either leave the profession or be forced to leave it.
"As usual... it depends."
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senorlegalo
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Re: LAW

Post by senorlegalo »

Jack D Ripper wrote: November 17th, 2020, 10:12 pm I cannot help but think that the practical problems of how to reform the police departments of the United States are not going to be solved by looking at Sartre. I could be mistaken, but I am unaware of him ever reforming any police departments anywhere in the world.

It might be more productive to compare with policing in other countries that do not seem to have the same problems, at least not anything close to the degree in which these problems exist in the United States. Perhaps looking at the police departments in, say, Canada, how they are trained, what they are instructed to do, departmental policies, etc., to look for differences in approach that may explain differences in outcome.
Jack D.;
I never imagined the site monitors would publish my piece and was amazed to see so many responses having appeared.

I am not discussing police reform. I am concerned with the absolutism of law which we are practicing in America and, am positing a theoretical destruction of the very notion of law as a means of cautioning us to begin to reflect upon the error of our ways. Via law we currently practice a chaos more extreme than any natural ontological chaos wherein freedom reigns completely, and, wherein, those who unjustly kill others would not live long. Thesis; antithesis; synthesis...I am presenting an antithesis in the hope of steering toward a synthesis wherein law is practiced with the honest admission that it is not in fact determinative of human conduct, nonetheless, we ought employ punishment mediated by consensus that we will not countenance radical human misconduct, no matter what...

Sartre's ontological reasonings are employed in order to rationally assert that human conduct does not originate on the basis of given states of affairs like laws; no, Sartre did not practice police reform, however, his ontological constructs are efficient for a reformation of the police mentality that murders poor black men for selling smokes singly, if and when it gets through that policeman's thick head that neither his conduct nor the poor black man's is determined/determinable by given language of law.
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Re: LAW

Post by senorlegalo »

LuckyR wrote: November 17th, 2020, 7:22 pm Do you have a question?
Yes, I am questioning the viability of law as a means of attaining civil civilization.

Never thought monitors would publish my writing when originally submitted on 10/17/2020; which submission contained a large mistaken duplication. A corrected and revised version follows thus:

LAW

1. When, across America, there become multiple ongoing instances of criminally overzealous law enforcement, for example, by police regularly murdering citizens in connection with enforcing extremely minor legal concerns, it becomes apt to critique the very notion of law itself, (via examining the most up to date thinking regarding how a human act comes into being), in order to consider whether American law enforcement is now an inacceptable absolute absolutism, of the very sort these United States of America was originally constituted to discard; and, in order to give ourselves reflective pause regarding the morality of doing law per se.

2. J. P. Sartre’s (1905-1980) account of how a human act originates is important for mankind and for the future of human civilization, in the sense that it is a means to our attaining an honest and honorable system of justice.

3. Honorable honest justice, cannot rationally and intelligibly be predicated upon current mistaken legalist, positivist, materialist, causalist, theory of origination of human action; for human determination to action is only of negative nihilative negational origin, upsurging via human consciousness, as a nothing nothinging. “Nothing nothings.” (Heidegger), and, that nothing which is human consciousness intentionally making acts in the world, is a constant engagement in making nothing in a doubly nihilative mode, known as “double nihilation”.

4. To nihilate is to “make nothing’’. Human consciousness, on the one hand, firstly makes nothing in the sense that consciousness’ imagined intended future, a non existent state of affairs, is a made not, a made not yet, which made imagined future not yet is one side of the coin of the double nihilation, which constitutes the wholly negative originative modus operandi of intentional human conscious action.

5. On the other hand, on the other side of the coin of double nihilation, and secondly, is the existing present state of affairs becoming a state of affairs which consciousness makes nothing (nihilates), via transcending and abandoning, as passe and past, the extant state, by actively thrusting unto attaining a not yet and presently absent future.

6. It is the theoretical intelligibility, on the human ontological plane, of putatively mediating and attaining and determining justice, via employing given published language of law, which is being closely considered and questioned herein, thusly:
7. Sartre’s account of the mode of origin of a human act is a template for organizing human civilization in accord, not in disaccord, with the very ontological structure of being an acting person, and, is a means of transcending ugly predatory and venal global con-games which are our current divers law enforcement/justice systems.
8. Via law mankind has currently structured a system of punishment and justice predicated upon the delusion that given language of law is determinative of the conduct of legislators, police and prosecutorial officers, magistrates and grassroots persons.
9. The constitution of a genuine, honest and honorable system of justice, and mode of human civilization, can be attained by reflectively transcending the extant delusional notion that language of law is a means of determining the course of a person’s conduct.
10. The subjoined is an delineation of the Sartreian account of the ontological mode of upsurge of a human act and, is key to recognizing the bad faith and dishonor exhibited by existing law enforcement/justice systems:
11. Out of 1943 France came a description of how all human action arises as a wholly negative procedure, explaining how and why what is absent and not yet existing, how and why what is desired and intended to be, is the fount of human action.

12 Language of law is a positive given factual phenomena, whereby police and prosecutorial officers, magistrates and legislators, invariably mistakenly claim, worldwide, to be originating social acts based upon existing factual law language.

13. This author endorses the following rationale set forth by J. P. Sartre (1901-1980): ” No factual state whatever it may be (the political and economic structure of society, the psychological “state,” etc.) is capable by itself of motivating any act whatsoever. For an act is a projection of the for-itself toward what is not, and what is can in no way determine by itself what is not.” (Sartre,J.P., Chapter Four, “Freedom”). And, further: “But if human reality is action, this means evidently that its determination to action is itself action. If we reject this principle, and if we admit that human reality can be determined to action by a prior state of the world or itself, this amounts to putting a given at the beginning of the series. Then these acts disappear as acts in order to give place to a series of movements...The existence of the act implies its autonomy...Furthermore, if the act is not pure motion, it must be defined by an intention. No matter how this intention is considered, it can be only a surpassing of the given toward a result to be attained. This given, in fact, since it is pure presence, can not get out of itself. Precisely because it is, it is fully and solely what it is. Therefore it can not provide the reason for a phenomenon which derives all its meaning from a result to be attained; that is, from a non-existent… This intention, which is the fundamental structure of human reality, can in no case be explained by a given, not even if it is presented as an emanation from a given.” (Sartre, J. P., Chapter Four, “Freedom”).

14. The ontological concept that no given factual state of affairs is per se efficient to determine a human being to act (or forbear action), is central to Sartre’s avant-garde explanation of how a human act originates. Human consciousness, which intentionally originates action, is an absolute freedom which cannot possibly be bound and determined by what already exists, else innovation could not freely suddenly surge up in the world. Hence existing language of law, as a factual state of affairs, as an identity A=A, does not, cannot, itself determine the origination of either human action or, inaction. Nor can persons ontologically intelligibly claim to determine themselves to act or forbear action by law. Nor can persons correctly claim language of law to be the cause of their actions and or inactions, for human ontological absurdity consists in our being the indubitable sole free authors of the intentional acts which constitute our manifold projects, who, nonetheless, in bad faith, designate some given state of affairs already contained in the world, (e.g., a law), as motive, cause, reason for our act.

15. Language of law cannot rule except by delusion. Law is demonstrably not in fact a means to originate human action. Nonetheless, we mistakenly, immorally, murderously, delusionally, criminally, devilishly, treat law as if it is an absolutely absolute and indefeasible determinant of police, judicial, and, of all other forms of human conduct.

16. At present most humans equate law and civilization, as if one were requisite to the other, for the sake of putatively obviating chaos and maintaining civility, via law enforcement.
17. However, extant law-mediated civilization, as an absolute absolutism of language of law, proceeding upon the basis of a mistaken notion of the mode of origination of a human act, in combination with extreme judicially mediated punishments and executions, is an ilk of unadulterated barbarism next to none; wherein police commit, with alacrity, the murder of human beings, across the world, constantly, constituting precisely a limitless ongoing chaos. What is requisite for dissolution of the present murderous, radically criminal,law/police-mediated inhuman chaos; which is a degenerately deformed cancerous tissue of error, predicated upon an incorrect theoretical attempt at attaining civilization via given language law, is: The honor, honesty and authenticity attendant upon undertaking civilization via inculcating global reflective comprehension of the ontological structure of personal human freedom, wherein we, as one humanity, reflectively let human freedom reign absolutely, which intelligently reflectively free sociosphere, will constitute a higher/humane order of pure authentic absolute human ontological chaos, absent the dread of an ontologically incorrect institution of delusional rule of murderous absolutist law, wherein a new species of honest and truly honorable justice will upsurge, via a reflectively free transcendence of our present pre-reflectively free, failed, jurisprudential attempt at attaining a just, civil, civilization.
Bibliography:
”Sartre, Jean Paul. Being and Nothingness: An Essay on Phenomenological Ontology. Trans. Hazel E. Barnes. Philosophical Library. New York. 1956.
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LuckyR
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Re: LAW

Post by LuckyR »

senorlegalo wrote: January 1st, 2021, 7:03 am
LuckyR wrote: November 17th, 2020, 7:22 pm Do you have a question?
Yes, I am questioning the viability of law as a means of attaining civil civilization.

Never thought monitors would publish my writing when originally submitted on 10/17/2020; which submission contained a large mistaken duplication. A corrected and revised version follows thus:

LAW

1. When, across America, there become multiple ongoing instances of criminally overzealous law enforcement, for example, by police regularly murdering citizens in connection with enforcing extremely minor legal concerns, it becomes apt to critique the very notion of law itself, (via examining the most up to date thinking regarding how a human act comes into being), in order to consider whether American law enforcement is now an inacceptable absolute absolutism, of the very sort these United States of America was originally constituted to discard; and, in order to give ourselves reflective pause regarding the morality of doing law per se.

2. J. P. Sartre’s (1905-1980) account of how a human act originates is important for mankind and for the future of human civilization, in the sense that it is a means to our attaining an honest and honorable system of justice.

3. Honorable honest justice, cannot rationally and intelligibly be predicated upon current mistaken legalist, positivist, materialist, causalist, theory of origination of human action; for human determination to action is only of negative nihilative negational origin, upsurging via human consciousness, as a nothing nothinging. “Nothing nothings.” (Heidegger), and, that nothing which is human consciousness intentionally making acts in the world, is a constant engagement in making nothing in a doubly nihilative mode, known as “double nihilation”.

4. To nihilate is to “make nothing’’. Human consciousness, on the one hand, firstly makes nothing in the sense that consciousness’ imagined intended future, a non existent state of affairs, is a made not, a made not yet, which made imagined future not yet is one side of the coin of the double nihilation, which constitutes the wholly negative originative modus operandi of intentional human conscious action.

5. On the other hand, on the other side of the coin of double nihilation, and secondly, is the existing present state of affairs becoming a state of affairs which consciousness makes nothing (nihilates), via transcending and abandoning, as passe and past, the extant state, by actively thrusting unto attaining a not yet and presently absent future.

6. It is the theoretical intelligibility, on the human ontological plane, of putatively mediating and attaining and determining justice, via employing given published language of law, which is being closely considered and questioned herein, thusly:
7. Sartre’s account of the mode of origin of a human act is a template for organizing human civilization in accord, not in disaccord, with the very ontological structure of being an acting person, and, is a means of transcending ugly predatory and venal global con-games which are our current divers law enforcement/justice systems.
8. Via law mankind has currently structured a system of punishment and justice predicated upon the delusion that given language of law is determinative of the conduct of legislators, police and prosecutorial officers, magistrates and grassroots persons.
9. The constitution of a genuine, honest and honorable system of justice, and mode of human civilization, can be attained by reflectively transcending the extant delusional notion that language of law is a means of determining the course of a person’s conduct.
10. The subjoined is an delineation of the Sartreian account of the ontological mode of upsurge of a human act and, is key to recognizing the bad faith and dishonor exhibited by existing law enforcement/justice systems:
11. Out of 1943 France came a description of how all human action arises as a wholly negative procedure, explaining how and why what is absent and not yet existing, how and why what is desired and intended to be, is the fount of human action.

12 Language of law is a positive given factual phenomena, whereby police and prosecutorial officers, magistrates and legislators, invariably mistakenly claim, worldwide, to be originating social acts based upon existing factual law language.

13. This author endorses the following rationale set forth by J. P. Sartre (1901-1980): ” No factual state whatever it may be (the political and economic structure of society, the psychological “state,” etc.) is capable by itself of motivating any act whatsoever. For an act is a projection of the for-itself toward what is not, and what is can in no way determine by itself what is not.” (Sartre,J.P., Chapter Four, “Freedom”). And, further: “But if human reality is action, this means evidently that its determination to action is itself action. If we reject this principle, and if we admit that human reality can be determined to action by a prior state of the world or itself, this amounts to putting a given at the beginning of the series. Then these acts disappear as acts in order to give place to a series of movements...The existence of the act implies its autonomy...Furthermore, if the act is not pure motion, it must be defined by an intention. No matter how this intention is considered, it can be only a surpassing of the given toward a result to be attained. This given, in fact, since it is pure presence, can not get out of itself. Precisely because it is, it is fully and solely what it is. Therefore it can not provide the reason for a phenomenon which derives all its meaning from a result to be attained; that is, from a non-existent… This intention, which is the fundamental structure of human reality, can in no case be explained by a given, not even if it is presented as an emanation from a given.” (Sartre, J. P., Chapter Four, “Freedom”).

14. The ontological concept that no given factual state of affairs is per se efficient to determine a human being to act (or forbear action), is central to Sartre’s avant-garde explanation of how a human act originates. Human consciousness, which intentionally originates action, is an absolute freedom which cannot possibly be bound and determined by what already exists, else innovation could not freely suddenly surge up in the world. Hence existing language of law, as a factual state of affairs, as an identity A=A, does not, cannot, itself determine the origination of either human action or, inaction. Nor can persons ontologically intelligibly claim to determine themselves to act or forbear action by law. Nor can persons correctly claim language of law to be the cause of their actions and or inactions, for human ontological absurdity consists in our being the indubitable sole free authors of the intentional acts which constitute our manifold projects, who, nonetheless, in bad faith, designate some given state of affairs already contained in the world, (e.g., a law), as motive, cause, reason for our act.

15. Language of law cannot rule except by delusion. Law is demonstrably not in fact a means to originate human action. Nonetheless, we mistakenly, immorally, murderously, delusionally, criminally, devilishly, treat law as if it is an absolutely absolute and indefeasible determinant of police, judicial, and, of all other forms of human conduct.

16. At present most humans equate law and civilization, as if one were requisite to the other, for the sake of putatively obviating chaos and maintaining civility, via law enforcement.
17. However, extant law-mediated civilization, as an absolute absolutism of language of law, proceeding upon the basis of a mistaken notion of the mode of origination of a human act, in combination with extreme judicially mediated punishments and executions, is an ilk of unadulterated barbarism next to none; wherein police commit, with alacrity, the murder of human beings, across the world, constantly, constituting precisely a limitless ongoing chaos. What is requisite for dissolution of the present murderous, radically criminal,law/police-mediated inhuman chaos; which is a degenerately deformed cancerous tissue of error, predicated upon an incorrect theoretical attempt at attaining civilization via given language law, is: The honor, honesty and authenticity attendant upon undertaking civilization via inculcating global reflective comprehension of the ontological structure of personal human freedom, wherein we, as one humanity, reflectively let human freedom reign absolutely, which intelligently reflectively free sociosphere, will constitute a higher/humane order of pure authentic absolute human ontological chaos, absent the dread of an ontologically incorrect institution of delusional rule of murderous absolutist law, wherein a new species of honest and truly honorable justice will upsurge, via a reflectively free transcendence of our present pre-reflectively free, failed, jurisprudential attempt at attaining a just, civil, civilization.
Bibliography:
”Sartre, Jean Paul. Being and Nothingness: An Essay on Phenomenological Ontology. Trans. Hazel E. Barnes. Philosophical Library. New York. 1956.
Ok, so no laws. What's your alternative?
"As usual... it depends."
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senorlegalo
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Re: LAW

Post by senorlegalo »

LuckyR;
Human history proceeds via thetic, antithetic, and synthetic moments. Civilization mediated by law is currently a thetic moment in human history. Existential phenomenological demonstration of the ontological impossibility of language of law determining human action, is an antithetic moment; and, via a dialectic between thetic and antithetic moments, synthetic moments wherein law is progressively transcended may transpire, i.e,, there will not suddenly be a state of affairs wherein law disappears. Law can be progressively detotalized via a polemical/dialectical process wherein positivists materialist legalist and existential doubly nihilative theories of origin of human action contend to account for the true mode of origin of human action.
And, the alternative which I merely outline in the OP, is the constitution of a purely ontological civilization wherein human freedom reigns more and more freely, as we collectively become more and more reflectively aware of how our absolute human ontological freedom tics, and, hence, more and more responsible in the conduct of that absolute human ontological freedom. See paragraph 17. for a nutshell sketch of what a purely human ontological civilization could be...
All of the ideas which I propose regarding the constitution of an ontological versus a jurisprudentially oriented civilization, are derived from reading J.P. Sartre's "Being and Nothingness" and his "Critique of Dialectical Reason, Tomes I & II"...
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LuckyR
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Re: LAW

Post by LuckyR »

senorlegalo wrote: January 2nd, 2021, 9:08 pm LuckyR;
Human history proceeds via thetic, antithetic, and synthetic moments. Civilization mediated by law is currently a thetic moment in human history. Existential phenomenological demonstration of the ontological impossibility of language of law determining human action, is an antithetic moment; and, via a dialectic between thetic and antithetic moments, synthetic moments wherein law is progressively transcended may transpire, i.e,, there will not suddenly be a state of affairs wherein law disappears. Law can be progressively detotalized via a polemical/dialectical process wherein positivists materialist legalist and existential doubly nihilative theories of origin of human action contend to account for the true mode of origin of human action.
And, the alternative which I merely outline in the OP, is the constitution of a purely ontological civilization wherein human freedom reigns more and more freely, as we collectively become more and more reflectively aware of how our absolute human ontological freedom tics, and, hence, more and more responsible in the conduct of that absolute human ontological freedom. See paragraph 17. for a nutshell sketch of what a purely human ontological civilization could be...
All of the ideas which I propose regarding the constitution of an ontological versus a jurisprudentially oriented civilization, are derived from reading J.P. Sartre's "Being and Nothingness" and his "Critique of Dialectical Reason, Tomes I & II"...
Ok, I will stipulate that you can talk around issues better than most. Give us some practical examples of how you envision the management of a spectrum of human behavior.
"As usual... it depends."
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senorlegalo
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Re: LAW

Post by senorlegalo »

LuckyR wrote: January 3rd, 2021, 2:25 am
senorlegalo wrote: January 2nd, 2021, 9:08 pm LuckyR;
Human history proceeds via thetic, antithetic, and synthetic moments. Civilization mediated by law is currently a thetic moment in human history. Existential phenomenological demonstration of the ontological impossibility of language of law determining human action, is an antithetic moment; and, via a dialectic between thetic and antithetic moments, synthetic moments wherein law is progressively transcended may transpire, i.e,, there will not suddenly be a state of affairs wherein law disappears. Law can be progressively detotalized via a polemical/dialectical process wherein positivists materialist legalist and existential doubly nihilative theories of origin of human action contend to account for the true mode of origin of human action.
And, the alternative which I merely outline in the OP, is the constitution of a purely ontological civilization wherein human freedom reigns more and more freely, as we collectively become more and more reflectively aware of how our absolute human ontological freedom tics, and, hence, more and more responsible in the conduct of that absolute human ontological freedom. See paragraph 17. for a nutshell sketch of what a purely human ontological civilization could be...
All of the ideas which I propose regarding the constitution of an ontological versus a jurisprudentially oriented civilization, are derived from reading J.P. Sartre's "Being and Nothingness" and his "Critique of Dialectical Reason, Tomes I & II"...
Ok, I will stipulate that you can talk around issues better than most. Give us some practical examples of how you envision the management of a spectrum of human behavior.
LuckyR;
The idea here is precisely not to engage in a peonage wherein one vainly presumes to ''manage"' the conduct of the other's freedom and, to let freedom reign freely, absent nonsensically attempting to obviate human misconduct via censoring/suffocating free ranging spontaneity of thought and action, as is so unfortunately continually practiced by staff on this radically suffocative site, whereupon one is subjected to a horrid and ongoing fascist ilk of burdensome censorship...
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Re: LAW

Post by LuckyR »

senorlegalo wrote: January 3rd, 2021, 4:07 am
LuckyR wrote: January 3rd, 2021, 2:25 am

Ok, I will stipulate that you can talk around issues better than most. Give us some practical examples of how you envision the management of a spectrum of human behavior.
LuckyR;
The idea here is precisely not to engage in a peonage wherein one vainly presumes to ''manage"' the conduct of the other's freedom and, to let freedom reign freely, absent nonsensically attempting to obviate human misconduct via censoring/suffocating free ranging spontaneity of thought and action, as is so unfortunately continually practiced by staff on this radically suffocative site, whereupon one is subjected to a horrid and ongoing fascist ilk of burdensome censorship...
Just as I suspected, nothing to offer beyond free-for-all anarchy (dressed up in off-putting supercilious language).

Move along... nothing to see here.
"As usual... it depends."
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