How to use the US election system to stage a coup

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Steve3007
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Re: How to use the US election system to stage a coup

Post by Steve3007 »

LuckyR wrote:Well to be clear, the suckers I referenced are any jurors in the Dominion case who believe this current argument. No doubt the original claim of fraud was factually a blatant lie, but using the term "lie" implies it could be (and actually was) believable by someone.
Yes, so the argument she (via her lawyers) seems to be using is that she was expressing an opinion, and that opinions cannot be characterized as lies (can't be true or false). Part of that defence is that her opinions were widely mocked, were therefore not believable, therefore must be seen only as opinion, therefore can't be characterized as a lie.
Sidney Powell's lawyers wrote:It was clear to reasonable persons that she was sharing her opinions and legal theories on a matter of utmost public concern. Those members of the public who were interested in the controversy were free to, and did, review that evidence and reached their own conclusions, or awaited resolution of the matter by the courts before making up their minds. Given the highly charged and political context of the statements, it is clear that Powell was describing the facts on which she based the lawsuits she filed in support of President Trump. Indeed, Plaintiffs themselves characterise the statements at issue as 'wild accusations' and 'outlandish claims.' They are repeatedly labelled 'inherently improbable’ and even 'impossible.' Such characterisations of the allegedly defamatory statements further support Defendants' position that reasonable people would not accept such statements as fact but view them only as claims that await testing by the courts through the adversary process.
It's a fascinatingly balmy defence relying on, among other things, there being a difference between a statement being an opinion or a factual claim even if the words of the statement are the same in both cases. And it relies on the proposition: "I was laughed at therefore I'm innocent."
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Sculptor1
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Re: How to use the US election system to stage a coup

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chewybrian wrote: March 24th, 2021, 12:15 pm ....
“The typical response by a losing party in a functioning democracy is that they alter their platform to make it more appealing,” Kenneth Mayer, an expert on voting and elections at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, said. “Here the response is to try to keep people from voting. It’s dangerously antidemocratic.”...
I thought you were a republican?

Looks like they are running scared.
Seriously, however bad Trump was I did not think Biden was going to make it, given his age and stutter. I suppose there is still some hope, but the Democrats are in a mess.
After Hilary's failure I prayed they would get their act together, despite not doing so they won against possibly the worst candidate in history.
2024 is going to be interesting.
Beware you live in interesting times.
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chewybrian
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Re: How to use the US election system to stage a coup

Post by chewybrian »

Sculptor1 wrote: March 24th, 2021, 2:35 pm
chewybrian wrote: March 24th, 2021, 12:15 pm ....
“The typical response by a losing party in a functioning democracy is that they alter their platform to make it more appealing,” Kenneth Mayer, an expert on voting and elections at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, said. “Here the response is to try to keep people from voting. It’s dangerously antidemocratic.”...
I thought you were a republican?

Looks like they are running scared.
Seriously, however bad Trump was I did not think Biden was going to make it, given his age and stutter. I suppose there is still some hope, but the Democrats are in a mess.
After Hilary's failure I prayed they would get their act together, despite not doing so they won against possibly the worst candidate in history.
2024 is going to be interesting.
Beware you live in interesting times.
I'm not sure why you would have thought I was a Republican(?). Is it just because I believe in free will?

I'm a middle of the road guy, which is closer to the Democrats at the moment. I think that protecting the integrity of the process is much more important than the temporary success of any candidate, party or issue. In other words, for example, better that I get my taxes increased for something I disagree with rather than lose my chance to have a say next time around.

I sure do long for some uninteresting times, but I don't see them on the horizon.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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Sculptor1
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Re: How to use the US election system to stage a coup

Post by Sculptor1 »

chewybrian wrote: March 24th, 2021, 6:07 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: March 24th, 2021, 2:35 pm
chewybrian wrote: March 24th, 2021, 12:15 pm ....
“The typical response by a losing party in a functioning democracy is that they alter their platform to make it more appealing,” Kenneth Mayer, an expert on voting and elections at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, said. “Here the response is to try to keep people from voting. It’s dangerously antidemocratic.”...
I thought you were a republican?

Looks like they are running scared.
Seriously, however bad Trump was I did not think Biden was going to make it, given his age and stutter. I suppose there is still some hope, but the Democrats are in a mess.
After Hilary's failure I prayed they would get their act together, despite not doing so they won against possibly the worst candidate in history.
2024 is going to be interesting.
Beware you live in interesting times.
I'm not sure why you would have thought I was a Republican(?). Is it just because I believe in free will?

I'm a middle of the road guy, which is closer to the Democrats at the moment. I think that protecting the integrity of the process is much more important than the temporary success of any candidate, party or issue. In other words, for example, better that I get my taxes increased for something I disagree with rather than lose my chance to have a say next time around.

I sure do long for some uninteresting times, but I don't see them on the horizon.
Okay.

Do you think Trump will run again next time?
If so with a new party or with the republicans?
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chewybrian
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Re: How to use the US election system to stage a coup

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Sculptor1 wrote: March 24th, 2021, 6:57 pm Do you think Trump will run again next time?
If so with a new party or with the republicans?
Yes, sadly, I think he will run. I imagine he will try to get the Republican nomination if they will have him. If he doesn't win that, then I assume he we try to run on his own. I only more hope people will wake up to him at some point.
“They say I have the most loyal people — did you ever see that? Where I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn’t lose any voters.” he said. “It’s like incredible.” Donald Trump
That is one of the few things he's said that seems truthful. I don't think even the burnt bridges of his attempted coup exit will discourage his loyal followers. As long as he keeps telling them what they want to hear, they can ignore anything else.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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LuckyR
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Re: How to use the US election system to stage a coup

Post by LuckyR »

chewybrian wrote: March 24th, 2021, 8:57 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: March 24th, 2021, 6:57 pm Do you think Trump will run again next time?
If so with a new party or with the republicans?
Yes, sadly, I think he will run. I imagine he will try to get the Republican nomination if they will have him. If he doesn't win that, then I assume he we try to run on his own. I only more hope people will wake up to him at some point.
“They say I have the most loyal people — did you ever see that? Where I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn’t lose any voters.” he said. “It’s like incredible.” Donald Trump
That is one of the few things he's said that seems truthful. I don't think even the burnt bridges of his attempted coup exit will discourage his loyal followers. As long as he keeps telling them what they want to hear, they can ignore anything else.
He had the highest dislike numbers ever recorded in 2016, unfortunately Hillary had the second highest.
"As usual... it depends."
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chewybrian
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Re: How to use the US election system to stage a coup

Post by chewybrian »

LuckyR wrote: March 25th, 2021, 1:39 am
chewybrian wrote: March 24th, 2021, 8:57 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: March 24th, 2021, 6:57 pm Do you think Trump will run again next time?
If so with a new party or with the republicans?
Yes, sadly, I think he will run. I imagine he will try to get the Republican nomination if they will have him. If he doesn't win that, then I assume he we try to run on his own. I only more hope people will wake up to him at some point.
“They say I have the most loyal people — did you ever see that? Where I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn’t lose any voters.” he said. “It’s like incredible.” Donald Trump
That is one of the few things he's said that seems truthful. I don't think even the burnt bridges of his attempted coup exit will discourage his loyal followers. As long as he keeps telling them what they want to hear, they can ignore anything else.
He had the highest dislike numbers ever recorded in 2016, unfortunately Hillary had the second highest.
But, he didn't say he would gain voters, just that it was nearly impossible for him to lose the ones he had. Republicans are maneuvering to make it more difficult to vote, to disenfranchise as many of the poor as they can, so that his core might be enough yet again next time around.

Do you think those numbers reflect a trend toward increased intolerance and hatred of people with opposing views, or are these just two people that are not very likeable? I think it might be a bit of both. Hilary never quite made it, but peoples' dislike and distrust of her (from both sides) was a huge factor in the outcome of several presidential elections.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
Steve3007
Posts: 10351
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: How to use the US election system to stage a coup

Post by Steve3007 »

chewybrian wrote:
“They say I have the most loyal people — did you ever see that? Where I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn’t lose any voters.” he said. “It’s like incredible.” Donald Trump
That is one of the few things he's said that seems truthful. I don't think even the burnt bridges of his attempted coup exit will discourage his loyal followers. As long as he keeps telling them what they want to hear, they can ignore anything else.
One of the interesting things about this is the way that it fits with the history of humanity worshipping heroes and messiahs. It's true that the more messianic the following, the more leeway the messiah has to do what he wants and not lose the faithful. The ultimate, of course, is to achieve the trick of not existing and still not losing that following. That trick beats merely shooting somebody on 5th Avenue hands down.
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Sculptor1
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Re: How to use the US election system to stage a coup

Post by Sculptor1 »

chewybrian wrote: March 24th, 2021, 8:57 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: March 24th, 2021, 6:57 pm Do you think Trump will run again next time?
If so with a new party or with the republicans?
Yes, sadly, I think he will run. I imagine he will try to get the Republican nomination if they will have him. If he doesn't win that, then I assume he we try to run on his own. I only more hope people will wake up to him at some point.
“They say I have the most loyal people — did you ever see that? Where I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn’t lose any voters.” he said. “It’s like incredible.” Donald Trump
That is one of the few things he's said that seems truthful. I don't think even the burnt bridges of his attempted coup exit will discourage his loyal followers. As long as he keeps telling them what they want to hear, they can ignore anything else.
America's standing in the world is at an all time low. 11 states of the union have the greatest concentration of deaths/population anywhere in the world by covid. The death toll of way over half a million people combined with Trump's long list of gaffs, and stupid remarks make the office a laughing stock, as well as he clar attempt at insurrection and overturning the vote- which he STILL insists was "stolen".
Unless Biden really screws things up, or the next candidate for the Democrats is seriously lacking in quality I do not think Trump can win.
My fondest hope is that he tries to run with a new party, which will split the right wing vote and give the democrats a real chance to improve things for ordinary people.
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