How to use the US election system to stage a coup

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Steve3007
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Re: How to use the US election system to stage a coup

Post by Steve3007 »

Quite an interesting account from the ground (one of many reporters among the crowd):

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 83609.html

If I were a would-be populist dictator learning the lessons from Trump for next time, I think the most valuable lesson I'd have learned from the last few years is that you start by building your base of loyal supporters who will believe without question everything you say, and that (if we didn't already know this from the lessons of history) this is much easier to do than you might thing. Once you've got that, you've got the primary weapon that you use to bludgeon elected representatives from your own side into supporting you and thereby further build your perceived legitimacy in the eyes of your base: a virtuous circle of greater and greater unquestioning support. More and more people with too much of a vested interest to risk jumping off the train.
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LuckyR
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Re: How to use the US election system to stage a coup

Post by LuckyR »

What I don't get is the possible mentality of anyone who felt that the following narrative was anything other than embarrassingly pathetic: hey I'm a billionaire and the most powerful person in the world and I got the most important thing stolen from me by a bunch of lefty pedophiles. Oh and by the way I knew beforehand they were going to do it. Sounds like a schoolgirl getting her lunch money stolen. Not a pretty picture, best case scenario.
"As usual... it depends."
baker
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Re: How to use the US election system to stage a coup

Post by baker »

LuckyR wrote: January 7th, 2021, 2:27 pmWhat I don't get is the possible mentality of anyone who felt that the following narrative was anything other than embarrassingly pathetic: hey I'm a billionaire and the most powerful person in the world and I got the most important thing stolen from me by a bunch of lefty pedophiles. Oh and by the way I knew beforehand they were going to do it. Sounds like a schoolgirl getting her lunch money stolen. Not a pretty picture, best case scenario.
I know some very intelligent and educated people who are Trumpistas. Yes.

I've been trying to figure out why those particular people are such fervent Trump supporters. The best I can surmise is that they share a certain emotion -- a profound resentment and a sense of entitlement.
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LuckyR
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Re: How to use the US election system to stage a coup

Post by LuckyR »

baker wrote: January 7th, 2021, 4:25 pm
LuckyR wrote: January 7th, 2021, 2:27 pmWhat I don't get is the possible mentality of anyone who felt that the following narrative was anything other than embarrassingly pathetic: hey I'm a billionaire and the most powerful person in the world and I got the most important thing stolen from me by a bunch of lefty pedophiles. Oh and by the way I knew beforehand they were going to do it. Sounds like a schoolgirl getting her lunch money stolen. Not a pretty picture, best case scenario.
I know some very intelligent and educated people who are Trumpistas. Yes.

I've been trying to figure out why those particular people are such fervent Trump supporters. The best I can surmise is that they share a certain emotion -- a profound resentment and a sense of entitlement.
Oh, I completely understand why folks with money and without a conscience would support the guy, why wouldn't they, it's good for their pocketbook. No, I am talking about pseudo-macho Capitol stormers without a pot to piss in. Why would they support someone who is proposing to be such a wussy loser? (His words).
"As usual... it depends."
baker
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Re: How to use the US election system to stage a coup

Post by baker »

LuckyR wrote: January 7th, 2021, 4:30 pm Why would they support someone who is proposing to be such a wussy loser? (His words).
But he doesn't look like a loser to them, not at all.
What they and he share is a profound resentment and a sense of entitlement. This is what drives them, this is their starting point.

Or this, at least, is my best guess.
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LuckyR
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Re: How to use the US election system to stage a coup

Post by LuckyR »

baker wrote: January 7th, 2021, 4:36 pm
LuckyR wrote: January 7th, 2021, 4:30 pm Why would they support someone who is proposing to be such a wussy loser? (His words).
But he doesn't look like a loser to them, not at all.
What they and he share is a profound resentment and a sense of entitlement. This is what drives them, this is their starting point.

Or this, at least, is my best guess.
Resentment and entitlement hhmmm? Must be that white fragility...
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baker
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Re: How to use the US election system to stage a coup

Post by baker »

LuckyR wrote: January 7th, 2021, 4:41 pmResentment and entitlement hhmmm? Must be that white fragility...
Not necessarily fragility.

Think of how anger is usually interpreted in the modern pc West: as a weakness, a flaw. In other times and other cultures, showing anger is considered a strength.
Similar with resentment and entitlement.
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LuckyR
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Re: How to use the US election system to stage a coup

Post by LuckyR »

baker wrote: January 7th, 2021, 4:53 pm
LuckyR wrote: January 7th, 2021, 4:41 pmResentment and entitlement hhmmm? Must be that white fragility...
Not necessarily fragility.

Think of how anger is usually interpreted in the modern pc West: as a weakness, a flaw. In other times and other cultures, showing anger is considered a strength.
Similar with resentment and entitlement.
Whom do you think the Capitol stormers are resentful of? Uppity minorities, maybe? Whom do you think they feel entitled against? The same perhaps? I'll stick with white fragility.
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Steve3007
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Re: How to use the US election system to stage a coup

Post by Steve3007 »

LuckyR wrote:What I don't get is the possible mentality of anyone who felt that the following narrative was anything other than embarrassingly pathetic: hey I'm a billionaire and the most powerful person in the world and I got the most important thing stolen from me by a bunch of lefty pedophiles. Oh and by the way I knew beforehand they were going to do it. Sounds like a schoolgirl getting her lunch money stolen. Not a pretty picture, best case scenario.
Oh, I completely understand why folks with money and without a conscience would support the guy, why wouldn't they, it's good for their pocketbook. No, I am talking about pseudo-macho Capitol stormers without a pot to piss in. Why would they support someone who is proposing to be such a wussy loser? (His words).
Because that wasn't quite the narrative. The narrative was "We got the most important thing stolen from us by a bunch of lefty pedophiles".

I don't think we need to be baffled by all of this because it's not remotely new. Autocratic leaders who can persuade large sections of the population to believe them without question, and to see them alone as the individual embodiment of the "the people" go back an awful long way. And people who are desperate to fight for a cause and to see themselves as being there at a pivotal and revolutionary point in history are not new either.

Just consider all those young men and boys who eagerly walked down to the recruitment officers in 1914 to sign up to fight in the first world war, or the more recent young alientated people who eagerly flocked to what they thought was the new caliphate in Syria. It's the same tragedy playing out over and over again. But hopefully (to misquote Marx) this time just as farce.

On a more benign note, consider the people who flocked to Berlin in 1989 to take part in the fall of the Berlin Wall and happily climb onto its crumbling remains. Same motive to want to Be There. My ex was there. (I missed it by a year and went in 1990 to get my piece of reinforced concrete history and see the already fading east/west contrast.)


That's the Trump supporters who do things like marching on the Capitol. The rest simply liked his stated policies and don't follow the news closely enough to know or care that he's lying about the fraud thing.
Steve3007
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Re: How to use the US election system to stage a coup

Post by Steve3007 »

Incidentally, I think one of the narratives that will gradually pick up speed in the coming days will be the one in which the mob who invaded the Capitol were actually left wing infiltrators and/or that the security was left deliberately lacking by the liberal elites in order to encourage the invasion of the building and thereby discredit Trump. I've heard and read several public figures and Trump supporters floating that one. I think Trump will pick it up and suggest it using his "people are saying..." technique soon.
baker
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Re: How to use the US election system to stage a coup

Post by baker »

LuckyR wrote: January 8th, 2021, 2:22 amWhom do you think the Capitol stormers are resentful of? Uppity minorities, maybe? Whom do you think they feel entitled against? The same perhaps?
It's part of their personality.

Right-wing authoritarianism (RWA) is an ideological variable studied in political, social and personality psychology. Right-wing authoritarians are people who have a high degree of willingness to submit to authorities they perceive as established and legitimate, who adhere to societal conventions and norms and who are hostile and punitive in their attitudes towards people who do not adhere to them. They value uniformity and are in favour of using group authority, including coercion, to achieve it.[1]

In the academic use of the term right-wing authoritarianism, the label right-wing does not automatically match the popular use of the label, with some academics allowing for either left-wing or right-wing politics to motivate people to submit.[2]

/.../
Right-wing authoritarianism is measured by the RWA scale which uses a Likert scale response. The first scored item on the scale states: "Our country desperately needs a mighty leader who will do what has to be done to destroy the radical new ways and sinfulness that are ruining us". People who strongly agree with this are showing a tendency toward authoritarian submission ("Our country desperately needs a mighty leader"), authoritarian aggression ("who will do what has to be done to destroy") and conventionalism ("the radical new ways and sinfulness that are ruining us").[6]
/.../
Right-wing authoritarians want society and social interactions structured in ways that increase uniformity and minimize diversity. In order to achieve that, they tend to be in favour of social control, coercion and the use of group authority to place constraints on the behaviours of people such as political dissidents and immigrants. These constraints might include restrictions on immigration, limits on free speech and association and laws regulating moral behaviour. It is the willingness to support or take action that leads to increased social uniformity that makes right-wing authoritarianism more than just a personal distaste for difference. Right-wing authoritarianism is characterized by obedience to authority, moral absolutism and punitiveness towards dissidents and deviants. In parenting, right-wing authoritarians value children's obedience, neatness and good manners.
/.../
Altemeyer suggested that authoritarian politicians are more likely to be in the Conservative or Reform party in Canada, or the Republican Party in the United States. They generally have a conservative economic philosophy, are highly nationalistic, oppose abortion, support capital punishment, oppose gun control legislation and do not value social equality.[17] The RWA scale reliably correlates with political party affiliation, reactions to Watergate, pro-capitalist attitudes, religious orthodoxy and acceptance of covert governmental activities such as illegal wiretaps.[17]

Authoritarians are generally more favorable to punishment and control than personal freedom and diversity. They are more willing to suspend constitutional guarantees of liberty such as the Bill of Rights. They are more likely to advocate strict, punitive sentences for criminals[36] and report that punishing such people is satisfying for them. They tend to be ethnocentric and prejudiced against racial and ethnic minorities[37] and homosexuals.[38][39] However, Stenner argues that authoritarians will support programs intended to increase opportunities for minority groups, such as affirmative action, if they believe such programs will lead to greater societal uniformity.[1]
/.../
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-win ... itarianism
The US situation reads like a textbook example of RWA.
Ecurb
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Re: How to use the US election system to stage a coup

Post by Ecurb »

The Reality TV Star scored his biggest hit on Wednesday. Top ratings on every network!
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LuckyR
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Re: How to use the US election system to stage a coup

Post by LuckyR »

Steve3007 wrote: January 8th, 2021, 7:31 am
LuckyR wrote:What I don't get is the possible mentality of anyone who felt that the following narrative was anything other than embarrassingly pathetic: hey I'm a billionaire and the most powerful person in the world and I got the most important thing stolen from me by a bunch of lefty pedophiles. Oh and by the way I knew beforehand they were going to do it. Sounds like a schoolgirl getting her lunch money stolen. Not a pretty picture, best case scenario.
Oh, I completely understand why folks with money and without a conscience would support the guy, why wouldn't they, it's good for their pocketbook. No, I am talking about pseudo-macho Capitol stormers without a pot to piss in. Why would they support someone who is proposing to be such a wussy loser? (His words).
Because that wasn't quite the narrative. The narrative was "We got the most important thing stolen from us by a bunch of lefty pedophiles".

I don't think we need to be baffled by all of this because it's not remotely new. Autocratic leaders who can persuade large sections of the population to believe them without question, and to see them alone as the individual embodiment of the "the people" go back an awful long way. And people who are desperate to fight for a cause and to see themselves as being there at a pivotal and revolutionary point in history are not new either.

Just consider all those young men and boys who eagerly walked down to the recruitment officers in 1914 to sign up to fight in the first world war, or the more recent young alientated people who eagerly flocked to what they thought was the new caliphate in Syria. It's the same tragedy playing out over and over again. But hopefully (to misquote Marx) this time just as farce.

On a more benign note, consider the people who flocked to Berlin in 1989 to take part in the fall of the Berlin Wall and happily climb onto its crumbling remains. Same motive to want to Be There. My ex was there. (I missed it by a year and went in 1990 to get my piece of reinforced concrete history and see the already fading east/west contrast.)


That's the Trump supporters who do things like marching on the Capitol. The rest simply liked his stated policies and don't follow the news closely enough to know or care that he's lying about the fraud thing.
Oh yeah the lying. That's a completely separate issue. Obviously rich folks know he's lying but who cares? They're getting a windfall tax break (at the expense of the middle class) why wouldn't they vote for the guy? No, it really makes you wonder that the base's "lie detector" is so broken that they can't detect them coming from such a poor liar. It does answer the question of who is getting fleeced by Nigerian princes at this point.

My point is why choose a narrative that makes oneself look like such a pathetic loser? Then the next phrase is: yeah the pedophiles beat billionaire/POTUS me, but you guys as bunch of nobodies from the boondocks can win this thing, that I couldn't from my position. True there's a fool born every minute but why choose that narrative to describe yourself?
"As usual... it depends."
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LuckyR
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Re: How to use the US election system to stage a coup

Post by LuckyR »

Steve3007 wrote: January 8th, 2021, 7:57 am Incidentally, I think one of the narratives that will gradually pick up speed in the coming days will be the one in which the mob who invaded the Capitol were actually left wing infiltrators and/or that the security was left deliberately lacking by the liberal elites in order to encourage the invasion of the building and thereby discredit Trump. I've heard and read several public figures and Trump supporters floating that one. I think Trump will pick it up and suggest it using his "people are saying..." technique soon.
Well, there's two different issues. The first is that some individual law enforcement personnel do sympathize with alt right protesters and act accordingly. It is less obvious that law enforcement agencies have unspoken POLICIES in that regard.
"As usual... it depends."
baker
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Re: How to use the US election system to stage a coup

Post by baker »

LuckyR wrote: January 8th, 2021, 11:42 amMy point is why choose a narrative that makes oneself look like such a pathetic loser? Then the next phrase is: yeah the pedophiles beat billionaire/POTUS me, but you guys as bunch of nobodies from the boondocks can win this thing, that I couldn't from my position. True there's a fool born every minute but why choose that narrative to describe yourself?
For one, it's already well-known and many people can relate to it. It's been made popular by US cinema, tv, and music.
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