Two methods for discussing possible solutions to political issues

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baker
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Re: Two methods for discussing possible solutions to political issues

Post by baker »

Steve3007 wrote: January 5th, 2021, 12:53 pmYes, and I think it's that view of philosophy which tends to make a lot of people with an interest in philosophy favour revolutionary ("king") over evolutionary ("president") solutions.
Philosophy is supposed to be about problem solving. Problem solving is inherently a revolutionary procedure.

This is probably also why muggles tend to view philosophy as romantic, idealistic, and all in all, a colossal waste of time.
baker
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Re: Two methods for discussing possible solutions to political issues

Post by baker »

Steve3007 wrote: January 5th, 2021, 12:49 pmBut the upside of the evolutionary "tweak and inch towards improvement" method is that it's less likely that everyone dies during the transition because the system that's been supporting them up until now has been thrown away before a replacement has been built. As with Evolution in the Darwinian sense, you get a system which contains all kinds of vestigial features that you wouldn't have put in there if you were designing it from scratch, but at least you don't fall down a hole that was too wide to jump.
And that's why philosophers fail at politics!
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Sy Borg
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Re: Two methods for discussing possible solutions to political issues

Post by Sy Borg »

baker wrote: January 5th, 2021, 3:42 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: January 5th, 2021, 12:59 pmRe the latter point, you can start preparing the other cake before you throw the ruined one out. (So that you have some basic services ready to go once you make a change.)
Meh, go with cooking. Cooking is a far more flexible procedure. Baking is perfectionistic: you have to get it right at the onset, or ditch it.
Or adapt. What appears to be a potentially ruined cake can end up as a satisfactory sweet damper.
Steve3007
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Re: Two methods for discussing possible solutions to political issues

Post by Steve3007 »

Wossname wrote:... People often have different ideas to me about what is best (mad fools) and in those circumstances I’m all for revolutionary zeal and screaming Vive la Republique in a funny accent...
By going a bit French here you remind us that this topic is strongly related to "The Great Debate" between Edmund Burke and Thomas Paine, sparked by the revolutions in France and the USA. Burke was the archetypal evolutionary conservative (who pointed to the French revolution as an example of the unpleasant and difficult to control or foresee consequences of revolutions) and Paine was the revolutionary "tear it all down and start again" kind of guy.
Steve3007
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Re: Two methods for discussing possible solutions to political issues

Post by Steve3007 »

Greta wrote:Or adapt. What appears to be a potentially ruined cake can end up as a satisfactory sweet damper.
I had to look up "sweet damper" to see that it's an Aussie cakey thing. Looks interesting. Might give it a go. Same principle as things like bubble and squeak. Recycling the ingredients of previous food projects to avoid (metaphor switch) throwing the baby out with the bathwater.


That's another aspect of revolutions. Quite often they seem to end up being surprisingly (to the original revolutionaries) similar to the systems against which they revolted (Animal Farm. Pigs turning into humans at the end and all that). Sometimes that's because the old and new ideas both turn out to be different expressions of the same underlying principles.
Steve3007
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Re: Two methods for discussing possible solutions to political issues

Post by Steve3007 »

baker wrote:Philosophy is supposed to be about problem solving. Problem solving is inherently a revolutionary procedure.
I don't think problem solving is necessarily a revolutionary procedure. It's often evolutionary. Evolutionary solutions to problems are often more useful in systems which have to keep functioning during the transition, such as living creatures or cities which have had to exist and function for hundreds/thousands of years. I also know from personal experience in software development that making use of evolutionary algorithms can have some extraordinarily effective results. Obviously a botanist would say "I could have told you that if you'd looked up from your computer screen at the natural world for a minute".
baker
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Re: Two methods for discussing possible solutions to political issues

Post by baker »

Steve3007 wrote: January 6th, 2021, 5:59 am
baker wrote:Philosophy is supposed to be about problem solving. Problem solving is inherently a revolutionary procedure.
I don't think problem solving is necessarily a revolutionary procedure.
I mean revolutionary in the sense of "I'm/This is going to make a radical change. Things are going to be completely different from now on".
This is why one attempts to solve problems: to bring about a big change.

That it often takes quite a bit to solve a problem doesn't change this.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Two methods for discussing possible solutions to political issues

Post by Sy Borg »

Steve3007 wrote: January 6th, 2021, 5:50 am
Greta wrote:Or adapt. What appears to be a potentially ruined cake can end up as a satisfactory sweet damper.
I had to look up "sweet damper" to see that it's an Aussie cakey thing. Looks interesting. Might give it a go. Same principle as things like bubble and squeak. Recycling the ingredients of previous food projects to avoid (metaphor switch) throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

That's another aspect of revolutions. Quite often they seem to end up being surprisingly (to the original revolutionaries) similar to the systems against which they revolted (Animal Farm. Pigs turning into humans at the end and all that). Sometimes that's because the old and new ideas both turn out to be different expressions of the same underlying principles.
I'm not much of a planner so I often whip up meals based on whatever is around at the time.

As far as I can tell revolutions and government changes tend to operate on the GIGO principle. As George Carlin said, if politicians come from a population of dodgy people, then it's no surprise that the politicians are dodgy.
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Papus79
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Re: Two methods for discussing possible solutions to political issues

Post by Papus79 »

Papus79 wrote: January 4th, 2021, 5:11 pm 1) Consider what's needed to seed a new culture or bring more 'live players' together.
5 minute soundbite on some of his thoughts and criticisms related to both scientism (watering down or has he put it 'cargo-culting') and decrease in the number of people capable of deep reading comprehension:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlJ5yPDr21s

The idea of 'live players' is people who are interacting with data and actualities intentionally / deliberately more so than reading from social scripts that yield good climbing results, the later is much better at getting to the top of faltering or even failing structures whereas the former is the stuff of successful startups.
Humbly watching Youtube in Universe 25. - Me
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