Eugenics in 2021 as 'fix' for social problems

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Eugenics in 2021 as 'fix' for social problems

Post by psyreporter »

I am not into politics myself but as part of a critical blog I have addresses the subject eugenics. It appears to be an emergent topic in recent years and in 2019 a group of over 11,000 scientists argued that eugenics can be used to 'solve social problems'.

This topic is intended to question the ideas behind the concept eugenics and its potential use as fix for modern social problems.

(2020) The eugenics debate isn't over – but we should be wary of people who claim it can fix social problems
Andrew Sabisky, a UK government adviser, recently resigned over comments supporting eugenics. Around the same time, the evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins—best known for his book The Selfish Gene—provoked controversy when tweeting that while eugenics is morally deplorable, it "would work."
https://phys.org/news/2020-02-eugenics- ... eople.html

I am concerned with the topic of genetic modification (GMO) and synthetic biology which is essentially eugenics.

The multi-trillion dollar synthetic biology revolution reduces plants and animals to meaningless humps of matter that can be "done better" by a company and the idea behind it will logically eventually also affect people.

The idea behind eugenics - racial hygiene - that led to the Holocaust was supported by Universities around the world. It started with an idea that was not naturally defensible and that was thought to require trickery and deceit. It resulted in demand for people with the capabilities of Nazis.

The famous German Holocaust scholar Ernst Klee has described the situation as follows:
Ernst Klee wrote:"The Nazis didn't need psychiatry, it was the other way around, psychiatry needed the Nazis."
20 years before the Nazi party was founded German psychiatry started with the organized murder of psychiatric patients through starvation diets and they continued until 1949. In America, psychiatry started with mass sterilization programs and similar programs have also taken place in several European countries. The Holocaust began with the murder of more than 300,000 psychiatric patients.

Critical American psychiatrist Dr. Peter R. Breggin has researched it for years and says the following about it:
Dr. Peter R. Breggin wrote:Yet, while the Allied victory had ended the deaths in the concentration camps, the psychiatrists, convinced of their own goodness, had continued their macabre murder task after the war ended. After all, they argued, "euthanasia" was not Hitler's war policy, but a medical policy of organized psychiatry.

The patients were killed for their own good as well as that of the community.
The Nazis planned during their demise that they would come back to power through an economic empire to put their fascist plans (eugenics) into practice: a 4th empire through the power of big business.

Daily Mail published a classified intelligence report in 2009 showing the extent of the plans.

Revealed: the secret report showing how the Nazis planned a Fourth Reich ... in the EU
Red House Report wrote:The Red House Report is a bridge from a sunny present to a dark past. Joseph Goebbels, Hitler's propaganda chief, once said: 'In 50 years' time nobody will think of nation states.'

For now, the nation state endures. But these three typewritten pages are a reminder that today's drive towards a European federal state is inexorably tangled up with the plans of the SS and German industrialists for a Fourth Reich - an economic rather than military imperium.

The industrialists included representatives of Volkswagen, Krupp and Messerschmitt. Officials from the Navy and Ministry of Armaments were also at the meeting and, with incredible foresight, they decided together that the Fourth German Reich, unlike its predecessor, would be an economic rather than a military empire - but not just German.

Nazi Germany exported massive amounts of capital through neutral countries. German businesses set up a network of front companies abroad. The German economy soon recovered after 1945.

The Third Reich was defeated militarily, but powerful Nazi-era bankers, industrialists and civil servants, reborn as democrats, soon prospered in the new West Germany. There they worked for a new cause: European economic and political integration.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... h--EU.html

In 2014, New York Times journalist Eric Lichtblau published The Nazis Next Door: How America Became a Safe Haven for Hitler's Men, which showed that more than 10,000 high-ranking Nazis emigrated to the United States after World War II. Their war crimes were quickly forgotten, and some received help and protection from the US government.

(2020) Is America Starting Down the Path of Nazi Germany?
Wayne Allyn Root, Townhall.com wrote:I cannot express how truly sad writing this op-ed has made me. But I'm a patriotic American. And I'm an American Jew. I have studied the beginnings of Nazi Germany and the Holocaust. And I can clearly see parallels with what is happening in America today.

Wayne Allyn Root - bestselling author and nationally syndicated talk show host on USA Radio Network

https://townhall.com/columnists/wayneal ... y-n2570979
Leaked documents on WikiLeaks.org show that the US government plans to punish countries that oppose GMOs with "retaliation and pain", which is essentially enforcing eugenics.

Some references:

(2020) Eugenics is trending. That’s a problem.
Any attempt to slow population growth must focus on reproductive justice.

Scientist Richard Dawkins sparked controversy when he tweeted that, aside from the moral issues, eugenics `would work` in practice. While that comment is shocking, Dawkins is not alone in accepting the premise of eugenic science and population control theory. Last year, a group of 11,000 scientists signed a statement urging population control to slow human exploitation of Earth's fragile resources. Now that climate change is finally a topic of urgent debate, some have argued that limiting population growth, if not eugenics, could be part of saving the planet.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ ... s-problem/

(2020) US forced sterilization policies targeted minorities and people with disabilities - and continues into the 21st century
In the years between 1997 and 2010, forced sterilizations were performed on approximately 1,400 women in California prisons. These surgeries were based on the same rationale of unwanted genes that was evident in North Carolina in 1964.
https://theconversation.com/forced-ster ... ury-143144

(2021) Francis Galton was a pioneer of scientific advancement in many areas, but also founded the racist pseudoscience eugenics
A popular pseudoscience left its mark on American culture a century ago in everything from massive reductions in US immigration quotas, to thousands of 'fitter family' matches at county fairs, to growing acceptance of contraception by those who use it. thought. could limit the fertility of "unwanted".
https://theconversation.com/francis-gal ... ics-144465

A recent blog by the well-known activist, psychotherapist and philosopher Bonnie Burstow, PhD on MadInAmerica.com:

(2019) Psychiatric Eugenics Then and Now — You Betcha It’s Still Happening!
“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” (George Santayana)

We are facing an upsurge in twenty-first century psychiatric eugenics. With the historic and current eugenics record only too clear, as everyday members of society, is it not time that individually and collectively, we stopped “letting psychiatry off the hook”—before we have still more to regret?


https://www.madinamerica.com/2019/07/ps ... n-and-now/

Questions:

1) do you believe that it is a valid idea for humans to attempt to top-down control the evolution of the human specie?
2) do you believe that eugenics can be a 'fix' for social problems? If so/not, can you provide an example/argumentative foundation?
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Re: Eugenics in 2021 as 'fix' for social problems

Post by Alias »

1) do you believe that it is a valid idea for humans to attempt to top-down control the evolution of the human specie?
Valid or not, they've got it now, and once they've got hold of an idea, they'll run with it.
Don't worry - nothing will happen. The cost makes it unworkable, except for a few rich people who need their kids to be a little prettier and stupider than they are.
2) do you believe that eugenics can be a 'fix' for social problems? If so/not, can you provide an example/argumentative foundation?
Of course not. The human craziness is too pervasive to be gene-spliced out, and we don't have the time or the organization for a breeding program that got rid of it gradually.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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Re: Eugenics in 2021 as 'fix' for social problems

Post by LuckyR »

arjand wrote: February 9th, 2021, 5:24 am (2020) US forced sterilization policies targeted minorities and people with disabilities - and continues into the 21st century
In the years between 1997 and 2010, forced sterilizations were performed on approximately 1,400 women in California prisons. These surgeries were based on the same rationale of unwanted genes that was evident in North Carolina in 1964.
https://theconversation.com/forced-ster ... ury-143144


Questions:

1) do you believe that it is a valid idea for humans to attempt to top-down control the evolution of the human specie?
2) do you believe that eugenics can be a 'fix' for social problems? If so/not, can you provide an example/argumentative foundation?
Hhmmm... Your own link said: "Nearly 150 women were sterilized in California's prisons without the state's approval". Well if it was without approval, then it isn't policy, it is malpractice. A very different thing.

Eugenics didn't work and can't work because what eugenicists are trying to remove 1) isn't genetically passed and 2) is much more likely to be a spontaneous mutagen than inherited from one's parents.
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Re: Eugenics in 2021 as 'fix' for social problems

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LuckyR wrote: February 10th, 2021, 4:35 am Hhmmm... Your own link said: "Nearly 150 women were sterilized in California's prisons without the state's approval". Well if it was without approval, then it isn't policy, it is malpractice. A very different thing.
New York Times columnist Natasha Lennard mentions the following with regard to state policy:

"There need be no explicit policy of forced sterilization for a eugenicist system to exist. Normalized neglect and dehumanization are sufficient. These are Trumpian specialties, yes, but as American as apple pie."

(2020) Forced sterilization of poor women of color

Rightful public fury has followed allegations this week (2020) that hysterectomies were performed on numerous women imprisoned at U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s Irwin County Detention Center. According to a whistleblower, a nurse at the facility, the women “reacted confused” when they learned what had been done to their bodies.

The allegations produced a flood of commentary. Some drew comparisons to Nazi Germany’s eugenic sterilization programs. These commentators, however, did not need to reach so far across the globe: Some of the most extreme allegations echo a long and disgraceful history right here in America.

The accounts of ongoing brutalities at ICE concentration camps may be a direct consequence of fascistic Trumpian excess, but, if the whistleblower claims are proven true, they would be extensions of — not aberrations from — a wholly American practice of sterilizing populations deemed “undesirable.”

Eugenics programs directed at decimating the lives of Black, Indigenous, and other people of color, particularly poor and immigrant communities, as well as people with disabilities, were an explicit part of U.S. policy in the 20th century. Thirty-two states maintained federally funded eugenics boards, tasked with ordering sterilizations of women — and sometimes men — deemed “undesirable.” Tens of thousands of forced sterilizations were carried out nationwide last century. California’s so-called Asexualization Acts, which led to 20,000 men and women losing reproductive capacity, were a direct inspiration to Nazi eugenicists. “There is today one state,” Adolf Hitler wrote, “in which at least weak beginnings toward a better conception [of citizenship] are noticeable. Of course, it is not our model German Republic, but the United States.”


https://theintercept.com/2020/09/17/for ... s-history/
LuckyR wrote: February 10th, 2021, 4:35 amEugenics didn't work and can't work because what eugenicists are trying to remove 1) isn't genetically passed and 2) is much more likely to be a spontaneous mutagen than inherited from one's parents.
As @Alias mentioned, "once they've gold hold of an idea, they'll run with it.".

Embryo selection may be a modern day example of eugenics that shows how easy the idea is accepted by the short therm self interest perspective of humans.

MSNBC had a interesting publication about embryo selection:

Would you have allowed Bill Gates to be born?
But what if I told you it’s possible that Gates has a genetic condition that accounts, in part, for both his tremendous achievements and for his "nerdiness?" Gates is widely reported to display many personality traits characteristic of a condition known as Asperger’s syndrome. Asperger’s is a version of autism, a more serious condition that renders many children unable to talk, be touched, communicate or socialize.

The perils of genetic testing
Parents want their child to be healthy and prosperous. Laying the choice for eugenics with parents could be a scheme for scientists to justify their otherwise morally reprehensible eugenic beliefs and practices. They could piggyback on the back of parents who may have factors in mind such as financial worries, their career opportunities and similar priorities that may not be an optimal influence for human evolution.

The rapidly growing demand for embryo selection shows how easy it is for humans to accept the idea of eugenics.

(2017) China’s embrace of embryo selection raises thorny questions about eugenics
https://www.nature.com/news/china-s-emb ... ns-1.22468

At question would be:

1) would the short term perspective of parents for a desirable life lead to a different result than a scientific consensus to clean the human race of weakness and undesired properties?

2) could embryo selection applied for top-down control of genetic evolution be good for the future of humanity? Would it make humanity stronger?
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Re: Eugenics in 2021 as 'fix' for social problems

Post by Alias »

Neither question matters on the species scale.
Gates is irrelevant - indeed, the peculiar attainments of any individual are irrelevant: when you line up all the exceptional people and compare their DNA, they'll represent the entire spectrum - including some anomalous and damaged genes, among a whole lot of unremarkable normal sequences - because achievement is the product of so many unpredictable factors besides genetics.
The culling of a prison population is insignificant compared to state-wide bans on birth control. Irrelevant.
A little twiddling of the richest 0.1% will produce so few modified offspring as to go unnoticed. Irrelevant.
The genocide or absorption of entire tribes and nations has made no appreciable difference to the human genome in 30,000 years.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... 012-12-07/
The affect of these experiments is on such a small population that it's overwhelmed by environmental/cultural/economic/geographic selection in a single generation.
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Re: Eugenics in 2021 as 'fix' for social problems

Post by Tegularius »

An ongoing slow torque implementation of proper eugenics (one that lives up to its name) could yield one of the greatest benefits the human race ever encountered.
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Re: Eugenics in 2021 as 'fix' for social problems

Post by Alias »

Tegularius wrote: February 10th, 2021, 7:45 pm An ongoing slow torque implementation of proper eugenics (one that lives up to its name) could yield one of the greatest benefits the human race ever encountered.
Where is the agency with the resources, capacity, reach and stability to preside over such a very, very long-term project?
Now, if the human race were somehow reduced to much smaller, isolated and controllable populations...
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/104 ... _s_Country
And even then, too many wild cards.
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Re: Eugenics in 2021 as 'fix' for social problems

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Alias wrote: February 10th, 2021, 10:46 pm
Tegularius wrote: February 10th, 2021, 7:45 pm An ongoing slow torque implementation of proper eugenics (one that lives up to its name) could yield one of the greatest benefits the human race ever encountered.
Where is the agency with the resources, capacity, reach and stability to preside over such a very, very long-term project?
Now, if the human race were somehow reduced to much smaller, isolated and controllable populations...
And even then, too many wild cards.
Well that's just it, there aren't any such agencies or institutions available to truly commit to the kind of project the word implies regardless of population. In a thousand ways we're far too corrupt to make a success of it. For eugenics to work requires both empathy and objectivity as necessary factors for success. For an environment destroying species which has already plundered and destroyed so much eugenics can only lead to more catastrophe, this in spite of having the scientific knowledge to successfully implement it.
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Re: Eugenics in 2021 as 'fix' for social problems

Post by LuckyR »

For every preimplantation rejection, 10,000 conceptions happen "without trying", so no, human genetic selection will have essentially no impact on the human genome.

As to Bill Gates being reduced, if there wouldn't have been Bill Gates some other computer nerd who happened to be unlucky and therefore unknown, would have taken Gate's place and Microsoft would be essentially the same, if not better.
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Re: Eugenics in 2021 as 'fix' for social problems

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Alias wrote: February 10th, 2021, 1:08 am The human craziness is too pervasive to be gene-spliced out, and we don't have the time or the organization for a breeding program that got rid of it gradually.
China does.
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Re: Eugenics in 2021 as 'fix' for social problems

Post by Alias »

chewybrian wrote: February 12th, 2021, 8:14 am [The human craziness is too pervasive to be gene-spliced out, and we don't have the time or the organization for a breeding program that got rid of it gradually.]

China does.
Really? Do you see any evidence that china has bred out any of the craziness?
Even if China's birth control program had been aimed at improving the gene pool, rather than curbing the population explosion, it would have made no appreciable difference in the genetic makeup of China - let alone the world. http://maps.unomaha.edu/Peterson/geog1000/Sidebar/China
They have managed to raise the standard of living and education. Beyond that, they've altered the proportion of available mates (a shortage of girls) for two generations, and later, as the science became available, more prosperous couples turned to hormone treatments, so that they could have twins under the one-birth policy. They introduced measures against some ethnic minorities, but most of these are aimed at cultural separation rather than population control. In any case, all of the ethnic minorities combined only account for only 10% of the country's population - and don't mix with the majority anyway. Eliminating them altogether wouldn't affect the genetic makeup of even that one nation.
Humans are so long-lived and slow to mature that a century produces only five generations (four in industrial nations, where people marry late) A very well planned, comprehensive and universally applied eugenics program would take at least that long to show any results at all - and we can't predict those results with any degree of accuracy.
No, China doesn't have a 100 years to 'fix' its social problems through eugenics.
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Re: Eugenics in 2021 as 'fix' for social problems

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China has more than a birth control program. In fac,t, I think that has largely gone away. But they do have an ethnic cleansing program that is active.
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Re: Eugenics in 2021 as 'fix' for social problems

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What I was saying, though, is that they have the time. They look much more at the long game than we do, and don't switch direction every 4 years. If anyone can or will do this, they would probably be the one.
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Re: Eugenics in 2021 as 'fix' for social problems

Post by Alias »

chewybrian wrote: February 12th, 2021, 12:08 pm China has more than a birth control program. In fac,t, I think that has largely gone away. But they do have an ethnic cleansing program that is active.
I covered that. They're still encouraging and supporting birth control (I should hope so, given the supply / demand ratio), but have relaxed the one-child restriction.
What I asked was: over the last 70 years that the present regime - with minor variations - has been in charge, can you see a difference in the genetic composition of the Chinese people?

Ethnic minorities - 55 of them! - make up less than 10% of the population altogether.
Living and marrying outside the majority gene pool.
The main thrust of suppression of [some] minority groups is cultural: eradicating other languages and traditions - especially Islam.
The effect of aggressive birth-reduction campaign against the Uighurs, who are not Chinese but Turko-Russian, on the overall makeup of the Chinese population is negligible; its effect on the human genome is zero.
And, of course, none of it is relevant to the topic, because there is no comprehensive attempt for or against specific traits.
What I was saying, though, is that they have the time. They look much more at the long game than we do, and don't switch direction every 4 years. If anyone can or will do this, they would probably be the one.
Centuries? Without a map? Without a plan of implementation? With economic collapse, pandemic, environmental degradation, crop failures, water depletion and climate change speeding down the track like a herd of enraged freight-trains?
Nobody can do this.
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Re: Eugenics in 2021 as 'fix' for social problems

Post by Alias »

Also relevant: Nobody wants to implement a genetic modification on the large scale.
What traits would they breed out?
Stupidity? What government, and what corporate elite, desires a labour/ taxpayer/ consumer/cannon-fodder/ voter base that thinks critically?
Susceptibility to disease? Not only would that destroy the health care, pharmaceutical and insurance industries, the resulting seniors balloon would overwhelm the economy in a few years.
Laziness? The unemployment rate is high enough without everybody competing for limited opportunities.
Criminality? Which kind? All of them? Where would you get politicians, economists, stockbrokers and salesmen? And how many of those unemployed people would starve to death because they were too honest to survive by non-approved methods?
Aggression? But where would you get soldiers? And what if all the other nations didn't follow suit?
You see the dilemma.
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