Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

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Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Equality: I want citizens to have the same access to guns as cops under the same general conditions for each (e.g. similar safety training, background checks, minimum age requirements, etc.)
1
17%
Cops Armed; Citizens Disarmed: I want cops and government agents to have access to more powerful guns than similarly trained and similarly qualified citizens.
4
67%
Cops Disarmed; Citizens Armed: I want trained citizens to have have access to more powerful guns than similarly trained cops.
1
17%
 
Total votes: 6

Steve3007
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Re: Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Post by Steve3007 »

Given the choices available, I've gone for:

"Cops Armed; Citizens Disarmed: I want cops and government agents to have access to more powerful guns than similarly trained and similarly qualified citizens."

Where I live, cops are not universally armed with guns. Those who are armed with guns are specialist firearms units with specialist training. I'm in favour of keeping it that way and I don't want citizens who are not cops to be able to routinely carry guns even if they undergo the same training. I'm not in favour of encouraging the proliferation of gun ownership outside specialist firearms police units and organized gun clubs.
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Re: Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Post by Scott »

LuckyR wrote: April 15th, 2021, 2:05 am
QuestionAll+Nothing wrote: April 14th, 2021, 8:57 pm I think the best way to answer this question is. Will you ever know who actually has or owns the more powerful and more accessible weapon and if so, who really will determined which one is more powerful or accessible. All guns can be manipulated by the citizens to become more powerful and accessible. Cops technically, have to use what is issued to them without being able to be modified or manipulating the weapon. So citizen already do have more powerful weapons and accessibility to weapons. So the concept of want can not be applied because cops technically have to follow policy and law. Citizens are more free to do what your asking by obeying the law and breaking the law option without policy governing entities.
You bring up a good point: does "citizen" mean criminal or law abiding citizen?
I used the word "background check" in the poll, but I would aim to leave it open to the respondent to determine what qualifications they are expecting the cops and citizens to meet, in terms of training, background checks, and credentials, especially in the case of the "equality" option.

If one choose the 'equality' option in the poll and one wants known criminals to be allowed to become police, then I suppose that would mean that that particular respondent wants known criminals who are not police to also be allowed to legally purchase arms of roughly same powerfulness as police.

Sculptor1 wrote: April 15th, 2021, 6:37 am
Scott wrote: April 14th, 2021, 4:11 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: April 14th, 2021, 12:59 pm I would vote for cops have less, AND the public having much less.
There seems to be no category in your poll for that.
Assuming in your post above "less" means more than "much less", then you will want to choose the middle option in the poll, which says in part, "I want cops and government agents to have access to more powerful guns than similarly trained and similarly qualified citizens."
No this simply does not equate with my position in any sense, since this implies that police and citizens have some guns.
You can ignore the seeming implications and focus on the explicit.

Let A be the powerfulness of the guns/weaponry allowed to cops, and let B be is the powerfulness of the guns/weaponry allowed to equally trained and qualified citizens. Then, use the following formula to decide which option to choose in the poll:

A = B -- "Equality"

A > B -- "Cops Armed; Citizens Disarmed"

A < B -- "Cops Disarmed; Citizens Armed"


If you want it so either (or both) groups are not able to have any guns at all even a 17th century musket, then you can use the integer 0 to represent that in your calculation.
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"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
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Re: Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Post by Alias »

Let 'em all have all the guns they want - just stop making ammunition.
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Re: Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Post by LuckyR »

Remember the poll as written, isn't about guns yes or no, nor more vs less guns, it's about more powerful vs less powerful.
"As usual... it depends."
Steve3007
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Re: Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Post by Steve3007 »

One of the more recent stories of police shootings in the US in this one in Chicago:

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-04-16/ada ... r-released

Personally, given the environment in which both police and citizens live, I understand why the police officer shot that very recently unarmed boy and I think it would be unreasonable for that police officer to be charged with homicide. To me, it exemplifies why I wouldn't want to live in a society where an escalating arms race is encouraged in the name of individual freedom. The "if you outlaw the guns only the outlaws will have guns" mantra, I think, misses this point because the Libertarian individual liberties ideals that underpin the pro-gun-rights lobbies generally tend to regard arguments about the environment in which we live as irrelevant or inadmissible.

This is why, in my earlier post, I explained my reasons for the way I voted in this topic by stating my preference for a police service that does not routinely carry firearms and for restrictions on the carrying of guns by non-police citizens. I regard the "Equality - cops and citizens equally armed" option (option 1) as actively encouraging the arms race so I strongly oppose it.
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Re: Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Post by Steve3007 »

Scott wrote:2. I am much more interested in the fairness and equality of gun laws than what the laws happen to be in a given town, state, or country. For very cliché instance, when the Nazis gained power in Germany they systemically disarmed Jewish people and certain other "unreliable" groups (source) but actually loosened gun laws for Nazi party members and the military. That kind of inequality is what would concern me the most. In this way, we can look at guns like we might look at anything such as marijuana, alcohol, cyanide, automobiles, access to voting, college educations, or bank accounts. We can look at it like we might look at Wall Street getting away with market manipulation and short squeezes but retailer investors getting unequal treatment if they organize a short squeeze, which surely wouldn't be fair.
I don't agree with this fairness argument when it comes to guns. It's conclusion would presumably be that to be completely fair every person in a society carries a gun of equal power and everybody therefore knows that everybody else is carrying a gun. So, due to the action-at-a-distance nature of guns, every time I encounter a new person, before I know anything at all about their personality, circumstances or mood today, the one thing I know is that they carry the ability to quickly and efficiently kill me as a I approach. And I know that I have the same ability. And I know that they know I have that ability, before they know anything else about me.

I don't aspire for all of my encounters with strangers to be in those circumstances. I aspire for the minimal possible number of encounters with strangers to be like that.
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Re: Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Scott wrote: April 16th, 2021, 12:02 am
LuckyR wrote: April 15th, 2021, 2:05 am
QuestionAll+Nothing wrote: April 14th, 2021, 8:57 pm I think the best way to answer this question is. Will you ever know who actually has or owns the more powerful and more accessible weapon and if so, who really will determined which one is more powerful or accessible. All guns can be manipulated by the citizens to become more powerful and accessible. Cops technically, have to use what is issued to them without being able to be modified or manipulating the weapon. So citizen already do have more powerful weapons and accessibility to weapons. So the concept of want can not be applied because cops technically have to follow policy and law. Citizens are more free to do what your asking by obeying the law and breaking the law option without policy governing entities.
You bring up a good point: does "citizen" mean criminal or law abiding citizen?
I used the word "background check" in the poll, but I would aim to leave it open to the respondent to determine what qualifications they are expecting the cops and citizens to meet, in terms of training, background checks, and credentials, especially in the case of the "equality" option.

If one choose the 'equality' option in the poll and one wants known criminals to be allowed to become police, then I suppose that would mean that that particular respondent wants known criminals who are not police to also be allowed to legally purchase arms of roughly same powerfulness as police.

Sculptor1 wrote: April 15th, 2021, 6:37 am
Scott wrote: April 14th, 2021, 4:11 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: April 14th, 2021, 12:59 pm I would vote for cops have less, AND the public having much less.
There seems to be no category in your poll for that.
Assuming in your post above "less" means more than "much less", then you will want to choose the middle option in the poll, which says in part, "I want cops and government agents to have access to more powerful guns than similarly trained and similarly qualified citizens."
No this simply does not equate with my position in any sense, since this implies that police and citizens have some guns.
You can ignore the seeming implications and focus on the explicit.

Let A be the powerfulness of the guns/weaponry allowed to cops, and let B be is the powerfulness of the guns/weaponry allowed to equally trained and qualified citizens. Then, use the following formula to decide which option to choose in the poll:

A = B -- "Equality"

A > B -- "Cops Armed; Citizens Disarmed"

A < B -- "Cops Disarmed; Citizens Armed"


If you want it so either (or both) groups are not able to have any guns at all even a 17th century musket, then you can use the integer 0 to represent that in your calculation.
No.
There is no category for me.
I do not want equality
Option 3 is a recipe for anarchy of the worst sort.

The middle option fails to express my view point:
Citizens have zero guns, and the state only has reserves of guns for emergency use.
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Re: Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: April 16th, 2021, 7:54 am
Scott wrote: April 16th, 2021, 12:02 am
LuckyR wrote: April 15th, 2021, 2:05 am
QuestionAll+Nothing wrote: April 14th, 2021, 8:57 pm I think the best way to answer this question is. Will you ever know who actually has or owns the more powerful and more accessible weapon and if so, who really will determined which one is more powerful or accessible. All guns can be manipulated by the citizens to become more powerful and accessible. Cops technically, have to use what is issued to them without being able to be modified or manipulating the weapon. So citizen already do have more powerful weapons and accessibility to weapons. So the concept of want can not be applied because cops technically have to follow policy and law. Citizens are more free to do what your asking by obeying the law and breaking the law option without policy governing entities.
You bring up a good point: does "citizen" mean criminal or law abiding citizen?
I used the word "background check" in the poll, but I would aim to leave it open to the respondent to determine what qualifications they are expecting the cops and citizens to meet, in terms of training, background checks, and credentials, especially in the case of the "equality" option.

If one choose the 'equality' option in the poll and one wants known criminals to be allowed to become police, then I suppose that would mean that that particular respondent wants known criminals who are not police to also be allowed to legally purchase arms of roughly same powerfulness as police.

Sculptor1 wrote: April 15th, 2021, 6:37 am
Scott wrote: April 14th, 2021, 4:11 pm
Assuming in your post above "less" means more than "much less", then you will want to choose the middle option in the poll, which says in part, "I want cops and government agents to have access to more powerful guns than similarly trained and similarly qualified citizens."
No this simply does not equate with my position in any sense, since this implies that police and citizens have some guns.
You can ignore the seeming implications and focus on the explicit.

Let A be the powerfulness of the guns/weaponry allowed to cops, and let B be is the powerfulness of the guns/weaponry allowed to equally trained and qualified citizens. Then, use the following formula to decide which option to choose in the poll:

A = B -- "Equality"

A > B -- "Cops Armed; Citizens Disarmed"

A < B -- "Cops Disarmed; Citizens Armed"


If you want it so either (or both) groups are not able to have any guns at all even a 17th century musket, then you can use the integer 0 to represent that in your calculation.
No.
There is no category for me.
I do not want equality
Option 3 is a recipe for anarchy of the worst sort.

The middle option fails to express my view point:
Citizens have zero guns, and the state only has reserves of guns for emergency use.
So day to day only criminals have guns.
"As usual... it depends."
Steve3007
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Re: Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Post by Steve3007 »

LuckyR wrote:So day to day only criminals have guns.
I'm in favour of that particular inequality. In practice, what I think it tends to mean is that a very, very small proportion of criminals actually have guns too. I think the main driving force in arms races generally is towards equality of arms. In the case of gun ownership, I'd prefer that driving force to point down rather than up.
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Re: Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: April 16th, 2021, 11:24 am
Sculptor1 wrote: April 16th, 2021, 7:54 am
Scott wrote: April 16th, 2021, 12:02 am
LuckyR wrote: April 15th, 2021, 2:05 am

You bring up a good point: does "citizen" mean criminal or law abiding citizen?
I used the word "background check" in the poll, but I would aim to leave it open to the respondent to determine what qualifications they are expecting the cops and citizens to meet, in terms of training, background checks, and credentials, especially in the case of the "equality" option.

If one choose the 'equality' option in the poll and one wants known criminals to be allowed to become police, then I suppose that would mean that that particular respondent wants known criminals who are not police to also be allowed to legally purchase arms of roughly same powerfulness as police.

Sculptor1 wrote: April 15th, 2021, 6:37 am

No this simply does not equate with my position in any sense, since this implies that police and citizens have some guns.
You can ignore the seeming implications and focus on the explicit.

Let A be the powerfulness of the guns/weaponry allowed to cops, and let B be is the powerfulness of the guns/weaponry allowed to equally trained and qualified citizens. Then, use the following formula to decide which option to choose in the poll:

A = B -- "Equality"

A > B -- "Cops Armed; Citizens Disarmed"

A < B -- "Cops Disarmed; Citizens Armed"


If you want it so either (or both) groups are not able to have any guns at all even a 17th century musket, then you can use the integer 0 to represent that in your calculation.
No.
There is no category for me.
I do not want equality
Option 3 is a recipe for anarchy of the worst sort.

The middle option fails to express my view point:
Citizens have zero guns, and the state only has reserves of guns for emergency use.
So day to day only criminals have guns.
You do know what even criminals are citizens?
DUH
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LuckyR
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Re: Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: April 16th, 2021, 12:38 pm
LuckyR wrote: April 16th, 2021, 11:24 am
Sculptor1 wrote: April 16th, 2021, 7:54 am
Scott wrote: April 16th, 2021, 12:02 am
I used the word "background check" in the poll, but I would aim to leave it open to the respondent to determine what qualifications they are expecting the cops and citizens to meet, in terms of training, background checks, and credentials, especially in the case of the "equality" option.

If one choose the 'equality' option in the poll and one wants known criminals to be allowed to become police, then I suppose that would mean that that particular respondent wants known criminals who are not police to also be allowed to legally purchase arms of roughly same powerfulness as police.



You can ignore the seeming implications and focus on the explicit.

Let A be the powerfulness of the guns/weaponry allowed to cops, and let B be is the powerfulness of the guns/weaponry allowed to equally trained and qualified citizens. Then, use the following formula to decide which option to choose in the poll:

A = B -- "Equality"

A > B -- "Cops Armed; Citizens Disarmed"

A < B -- "Cops Disarmed; Citizens Armed"


If you want it so either (or both) groups are not able to have any guns at all even a 17th century musket, then you can use the integer 0 to represent that in your calculation.
No.
There is no category for me.
I do not want equality
Option 3 is a recipe for anarchy of the worst sort.

The middle option fails to express my view point:
Citizens have zero guns, and the state only has reserves of guns for emergency use.
So day to day only criminals have guns.
You do know what even criminals are citizens?
DUH
You do know that criminals don't follow laws, by definition, DUH?
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: April 16th, 2021, 3:23 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: April 16th, 2021, 12:38 pm
LuckyR wrote: April 16th, 2021, 11:24 am
Sculptor1 wrote: April 16th, 2021, 7:54 am

No.
There is no category for me.
I do not want equality
Option 3 is a recipe for anarchy of the worst sort.

The middle option fails to express my view point:
Citizens have zero guns, and the state only has reserves of guns for emergency use.
So day to day only criminals have guns.
You do know what even criminals are citizens?
DUH
You do know that criminals don't follow laws, by definition, DUH?
So what?
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Sculptor1
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Re: Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: April 16th, 2021, 3:23 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: April 16th, 2021, 12:38 pm
LuckyR wrote: April 16th, 2021, 11:24 am
Sculptor1 wrote: April 16th, 2021, 7:54 am

No.
There is no category for me.
I do not want equality
Option 3 is a recipe for anarchy of the worst sort.

The middle option fails to express my view point:
Citizens have zero guns, and the state only has reserves of guns for emergency use.
So day to day only criminals have guns.
You do know what even criminals are citizens?
DUH
You do know that criminals don't follow laws, by definition, DUH?
Citizens, even criminals have few guns in countries where they are illegal; as they do not need them to protect themselves against the police.
Generally people would rather not carry guns.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ntries.png
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Re: Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Post by Scott »

Sculptor1 wrote: April 16th, 2021, 7:54 am There is no category for me.
Let A be the powerfulness of the guns/weaponry allowed to cops, and let B be the powerfulness of the guns/weaponry allowed to equally trained and qualified citizens. Now, which of the following three options expresses the relationship between A and B:

A = B

A > B

A < B


?

If you want it so either (or both) groups are not able to have any guns at all, not even a 17th century musket, then please use the integer 0 to represent that in your calculation.
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Scott wrote: April 16th, 2021, 4:56 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: April 16th, 2021, 7:54 am There is no category for me.
Let A be the powerfulness of the guns/weaponry allowed to cops, and let B be the powerfulness of the guns/weaponry allowed to equally trained and qualified citizens. Now, which of the following three options expresses the relationship between A and B:

A = B

A > B

A < B


?

If you want it so either (or both) groups are not able to have any guns at all, not even a 17th century musket, then please use the integer 0 to represent that in your calculation.
B does not exist. So nothing you show makes sense.
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