Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

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Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Equality: I want citizens to have the same access to guns as cops under the same general conditions for each (e.g. similar safety training, background checks, minimum age requirements, etc.)
1
17%
Cops Armed; Citizens Disarmed: I want cops and government agents to have access to more powerful guns than similarly trained and similarly qualified citizens.
4
67%
Cops Disarmed; Citizens Armed: I want trained citizens to have have access to more powerful guns than similarly trained cops.
1
17%
 
Total votes: 6

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Scott
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Re: Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Post by Scott »

Scott wrote: If you want it so either (or both) groups are not able to have any guns at all, not even a 17th century musket, then please use the integer 0 to represent that in your calculation.
Sculptor1 wrote: April 16th, 2021, 5:59 pm B does not exist. So nothing you show makes sense.
In that case, you will want to use the integer 0 for B.
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LuckyR
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Re: Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: April 16th, 2021, 4:32 pm
LuckyR wrote: April 16th, 2021, 3:23 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: April 16th, 2021, 12:38 pm
LuckyR wrote: April 16th, 2021, 11:24 am

So day to day only criminals have guns.
You do know what even criminals are citizens?
DUH
You do know that criminals don't follow laws, by definition, DUH?
Citizens, even criminals have few guns in countries where they are illegal; as they do not need them to protect themselves against the police.
Generally people would rather not carry guns.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ntries.png
Yes there are countries where guns are rare. If you take a country were guns are extremely common, then make them illegal, law abiding citizens will no longer have guns and criminals will have a similar amount of guns as they had before (without buying a single gun).
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Scott wrote: April 16th, 2021, 7:48 pm
Scott wrote: If you want it so either (or both) groups are not able to have any guns at all, not even a 17th century musket, then please use the integer 0 to represent that in your calculation.
Sculptor1 wrote: April 16th, 2021, 5:59 pm B does not exist. So nothing you show makes sense.
In that case, you will want to use the integer 0 for B.
Headslap.
You are an example of the tyrrany of polls.
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Re: Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: April 17th, 2021, 1:39 am
Sculptor1 wrote: April 16th, 2021, 4:32 pm
LuckyR wrote: April 16th, 2021, 3:23 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: April 16th, 2021, 12:38 pm

You do know what even criminals are citizens?
DUH
You do know that criminals don't follow laws, by definition, DUH?
Citizens, even criminals have few guns in countries where they are illegal; as they do not need them to protect themselves against the police.
Generally people would rather not carry guns.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ntries.png
Yes there are countries where guns are rare. If you take a country were guns are extremely common, then make them illegal, law abiding citizens will no longer have guns and criminals will have a similar amount of guns as they had before (without buying a single gun).
Again, so what?
Maybe we coulds start with a licensing sceme, prohibited to criminals, with very stiff sentences for possession without a licence. It works for cars.
How about an amnesty for people wanting to get rid of their guns.
How about the death penalty for possession? That might make criminals think twice?
Or you could do nothing, and continue to see people die in epidemic numbers.
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LuckyR
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Re: Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: April 17th, 2021, 7:31 am
LuckyR wrote: April 17th, 2021, 1:39 am
Sculptor1 wrote: April 16th, 2021, 4:32 pm
LuckyR wrote: April 16th, 2021, 3:23 pm

You do know that criminals don't follow laws, by definition, DUH?
Citizens, even criminals have few guns in countries where they are illegal; as they do not need them to protect themselves against the police.
Generally people would rather not carry guns.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ntries.png
Yes there are countries where guns are rare. If you take a country were guns are extremely common, then make them illegal, law abiding citizens will no longer have guns and criminals will have a similar amount of guns as they had before (without buying a single gun).
Again, so what?
Maybe we coulds start with a licensing sceme, prohibited to criminals, with very stiff sentences for possession without a licence. It works for cars.
How about an amnesty for people wanting to get rid of their guns.
How about the death penalty for possession? That might make criminals think twice?
Or you could do nothing, and continue to see people die in epidemic numbers.
False choice. But by being forced to propose ridiculous options, you are proving my point that there aren't practical paths from where the US is to where you are proposing it going. I agree with you on the goal and the frustration of the situation, but there you have it.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: April 17th, 2021, 12:51 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: April 17th, 2021, 7:31 am
LuckyR wrote: April 17th, 2021, 1:39 am
Sculptor1 wrote: April 16th, 2021, 4:32 pm

Citizens, even criminals have few guns in countries where they are illegal; as they do not need them to protect themselves against the police.
Generally people would rather not carry guns.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ntries.png
Yes there are countries where guns are rare. If you take a country were guns are extremely common, then make them illegal, law abiding citizens will no longer have guns and criminals will have a similar amount of guns as they had before (without buying a single gun).
Again, so what?
Maybe we coulds start with a licensing sceme, prohibited to criminals, with very stiff sentences for possession without a licence. It works for cars.
How about an amnesty for people wanting to get rid of their guns.
How about the death penalty for possession? That might make criminals think twice?
Or you could do nothing, and continue to see people die in epidemic numbers.
False choice. But by being forced to propose ridiculous options, you are proving my point that there aren't practical paths from where the US is to where you are proposing it going.
If you can get hysterical then so can I. You do not expect me to take you seriously after your comments above do you?
I agree with you on the goal and the frustration of the situation, but there you have it.
The last horror was a kid who'd been identified as having some mental difficulties earlier this year before he took out his frustration on a FedEx depot.
It seems that anyone can easily get hold of a gun.
More children die of accidental gunshots in the US in one year than the total number of gun deaths in five years in the UK.
But who cares? If people are just going to reject any attempt to restrict guns then they are going to have to accept the 20,000 people that have died this year already.
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Re: Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: April 17th, 2021, 2:10 pm
LuckyR wrote: April 17th, 2021, 12:51 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: April 17th, 2021, 7:31 am
LuckyR wrote: April 17th, 2021, 1:39 am

Yes there are countries where guns are rare. If you take a country were guns are extremely common, then make them illegal, law abiding citizens will no longer have guns and criminals will have a similar amount of guns as they had before (without buying a single gun).
Again, so what?
Maybe we coulds start with a licensing sceme, prohibited to criminals, with very stiff sentences for possession without a licence. It works for cars.
How about an amnesty for people wanting to get rid of their guns.
How about the death penalty for possession? That might make criminals think twice?
Or you could do nothing, and continue to see people die in epidemic numbers.
False choice. But by being forced to propose ridiculous options, you are proving my point that there aren't practical paths from where the US is to where you are proposing it going.
If you can get hysterical then so can I. You do not expect me to take you seriously after your comments above do you?
I agree with you on the goal and the frustration of the situation, but there you have it.
The last horror was a kid who'd been identified as having some mental difficulties earlier this year before he took out his frustration on a FedEx depot.
It seems that anyone can easily get hold of a gun.
More children die of accidental gunshots in the US in one year than the total number of gun deaths in five years in the UK.
But who cares? If people are just going to reject any attempt to restrict guns then they are going to have to accept the 20,000 people that have died this year already.
Sounds like you're confusing my pointing out the difficulties in implementing your plan with rejection of your goal. I'm on your team, we're debating how to get there.
"As usual... it depends."
Stoic Spirit
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Re: Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Post by Stoic Spirit »

Either everyone should carry a gun or no one. I agree that it makes no sense to arm police officers among unarmed civilians. Because it's a clear sign that the gun control doesn't work.

But should the nuclear weapons be privatized?:)

SP
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Re: Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Post by AverageBozo »

The utopian goal is for no one to have weapons of any sort and for there to be no violent crime or no criminals.

My claim is that there is no way to get there. My doubts are evident in the form of the following questions.

What incentives are there for anyone to discard his weapons?

If there’s no effective incentive to eliminate all weapon ownership, what forceful method is available to remove those weapons from the States or from the entire world?

If there were an effective incentive or forceful method to accomplish this, how long would it take to complete the task?

Where would the weapons go to be stored or destroyed? How would that location be secured from would-be looters if not by armed guards?
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Robert66
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Re: Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Post by Robert66 »

AverageBozo wrote: July 27th, 2021, 3:16 pm The utopian goal is for no one to have weapons of any sort and for there to be no violent crime or no criminals.

My claim is that there is no way to get there. My doubts are evident in the form of the following questions.

What incentives are there for anyone to discard his weapons?

If there’s no effective incentive to eliminate all weapon ownership, what forceful method is available to remove those weapons from the States or from the entire world?

If there were an effective incentive or forceful method to accomplish this, how long would it take to complete the task?

Where would the weapons go to be stored or destroyed? How would that location be secured from would-be looters if not by armed guards?
Who is claiming a utopia with no criminals, violence, or weapons is possible?

There are incentives. A monetary incentive: the government pays you for the weapon you hand in. More importantly the incentive of saving lives. Studies in Australia showed that the large gun buyback has succeeded in preventing hundreds of gun deaths, mostly because many suicidal people no longer had access to a gun. Not having a gun around could also prevent you shooting someone possibly killing them when **** goes down. Of course if you try pointing out these facts (yes facts - proven here in Australia) to a US citizen you will get nowhere because apparently they are unwilling to try and stop the carnage, instead they prefer to believe that every individual is potentially either a threat you need to arm yourself against, or else a hero ready to take out the next mass murderer and prevent the death of a bunch of school kids. There may be another category of people who don't like having more guns than people around, but you never seem to hear from them.

How long? You could start improving the situation immediately. How long until utopia? A very long time. The Great Wall of China took a very long time to build, but more importantly it now exists.
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Re: Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Post by Robert66 »

Stoic Spirit wrote: July 26th, 2021, 10:36 am Either everyone should carry a gun or no one. I agree that it makes no sense to arm police officers among unarmed civilians. Because it's a clear sign that the gun control doesn't work.

But should the nuclear weapons be privatized?:)

SP
Yes of course nuclear weapons should be privatised. Who would trust a government with them? Rich and powerful people should own them . They could trickle them down on us from their spaceships.
Stoic Spirit
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Re: Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Post by Stoic Spirit »

Robert66 wrote: July 28th, 2021, 2:50 am
Stoic Spirit wrote: July 26th, 2021, 10:36 am Either everyone should carry a gun or no one. I agree that it makes no sense to arm police officers among unarmed civilians. Because it's a clear sign that the gun control doesn't work.

But should the nuclear weapons be privatized?:)

SP
Yes of course nuclear weapons should be privatised. Who would trust a government with them? Rich and powerful people should own them . They could trickle them down on us from their spaceships.
The government is exactly the gang of rich and powerful people, with right of initiating a violence on anyone. Everything is already owned by the oligarchic ruling elite, including the citizens. I don't claim that the gun control always leads to genocide, but that's undoubtedly true there's no genocide without gun control. The same rules apply to nuclear weapons. Their existence is unimaginable without their monopoly over guns, means in private ownership.

Thanks for reply

SP
AverageBozo
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Re: Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Post by AverageBozo »

Robert66 wrote: July 28th, 2021, 2:44 am
AverageBozo wrote: July 27th, 2021, 3:16 pm The utopian goal is for no one to have weapons of any sort and for there to be no violent crime or no criminals.

My claim is that there is no way to get there. My doubts are evident in the form of the following questions.

What incentives are there for anyone to discard his weapons?

If there’s no effective incentive to eliminate all weapon ownership, what forceful method is available to remove those weapons from the States or from the entire world?

If there were an effective incentive or forceful method to accomplish this, how long would it take to complete the task?

Where would the weapons go to be stored or destroyed? How would that location be secured from would-be looters if not by armed guards?
Who is claiming a utopia with no criminals, violence, or weapons is possible?

There are incentives. A monetary incentive: the government pays you for the weapon you hand in. More importantly the incentive of saving lives. Studies in Australia showed that the large gun buyback has succeeded in preventing hundreds of gun deaths, mostly because many suicidal people no longer had access to a gun. Not having a gun around could also prevent you shooting someone possibly killing them when **** goes down. Of course if you try pointing out these facts (yes facts - proven here in Australia) to a US citizen you will get nowhere because apparently they are unwilling to try and stop the carnage, instead they prefer to believe that every individual is potentially either a threat you need to arm yourself against, or else a hero ready to take out the next mass murderer and prevent the death of a bunch of school kids. There may be another category of people who don't like having more guns than people around, but you never seem to hear from them.

How long? You could start improving the situation immediately. How long until utopia? A very long time. The Great Wall of China took a very long time to build, but more importantly it now exists.
So you are optimistic that we ca reach that goal, or at least come satisfactorily close, around the globe, based on Australia’s experience. Well and good.

I don’t think Americans will ever get there, much for reasons you cite .
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Robert66
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Re: Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Post by Robert66 »

Stoic Spirit wrote: July 28th, 2021, 8:37 am
Robert66 wrote: July 28th, 2021, 2:50 am
Stoic Spirit wrote: July 26th, 2021, 10:36 am Either everyone should carry a gun or no one. I agree that it makes no sense to arm police officers among unarmed civilians. Because it's a clear sign that the gun control doesn't work.

But should the nuclear weapons be privatized?:)

SP
Yes of course nuclear weapons should be privatised. Who would trust a government with them? Rich and powerful people should own them . They could trickle them down on us from their spaceships.
The government is exactly the gang of rich and powerful people, with right of initiating a violence on anyone. Everything is already owned by the oligarchic ruling elite, including the citizens. I don't claim that the gun control always leads to genocide, but that's undoubtedly true there's no genocide without gun control. The same rules apply to nuclear weapons. Their existence is unimaginable without their monopoly over guns, means in private ownership.

Thanks for reply

SP
Sorry I don't understand what you are arguing here. Are you arguing that privately owned nuclear weapons are needed to counter an imbalance in the ruling elite which allows government too much power? And that by the same logic everyone should carry a gun?
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Robert66
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Re: Who do you want to have access to significantly more powerful guns and weaponry: cops or citizens?

Post by Robert66 »

AverageBozo wrote: July 28th, 2021, 8:58 am
Robert66 wrote: July 28th, 2021, 2:44 am
AverageBozo wrote: July 27th, 2021, 3:16 pm The utopian goal is for no one to have weapons of any sort and for there to be no violent crime or no criminals.

My claim is that there is no way to get there. My doubts are evident in the form of the following questions.

What incentives are there for anyone to discard his weapons?

If there’s no effective incentive to eliminate all weapon ownership, what forceful method is available to remove those weapons from the States or from the entire world?

If there were an effective incentive or forceful method to accomplish this, how long would it take to complete the task?

Where would the weapons go to be stored or destroyed? How would that location be secured from would-be looters if not by armed guards?
Who is claiming a utopia with no criminals, violence, or weapons is possible?

There are incentives. A monetary incentive: the government pays you for the weapon you hand in. More importantly the incentive of saving lives. Studies in Australia showed that the large gun buyback has succeeded in preventing hundreds of gun deaths, mostly because many suicidal people no longer had access to a gun. Not having a gun around could also prevent you shooting someone possibly killing them when **** goes down. Of course if you try pointing out these facts (yes facts - proven here in Australia) to a US citizen you will get nowhere because apparently they are unwilling to try and stop the carnage, instead they prefer to believe that every individual is potentially either a threat you need to arm yourself against, or else a hero ready to take out the next mass murderer and prevent the death of a bunch of school kids. There may be another category of people who don't like having more guns than people around, but you never seem to hear from them.

How long? You could start improving the situation immediately. How long until utopia? A very long time. The Great Wall of China took a very long time to build, but more importantly it now exists.
So you are optimistic that we ca reach that goal, or at least come satisfactorily close, around the globe, based on Australia’s experience. Well and good.

I don’t think Americans will ever get there, much for reasons you cite .
No I am answering your question about incentives, and pointing out that regardless of the impossibility or otherwise of reaching the utopia you have described, improvements could be made immediately.
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