Taxation is violent robbery.

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Re: Taxation is violent robbery.

Post by Scott »

Sy Borg wrote: April 29th, 2021, 2:32 am
Scott wrote: April 28th, 2021, 8:41 pm
Sy Borg wrote: April 28th, 2021, 4:24 pm My point is that referring to tax as "violent robbery" would be as insulting to people who have actually been violently robbed [...]
That sentence is incoherent because taxation by non-local big governments is violent robbery.
That seems to be a growing attitude in America, the resentment at [...]
That may be a growing attitude but it's not mine.

I did not say I resent anything.
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Re: Taxation is violent robbery.

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

Pattern-chaser wrote: April 29th, 2021, 10:30 am
Empiricist-Bruno wrote: April 29th, 2021, 7:36 am
Sy Borg wrote: April 29th, 2021, 2:32 am That seems to be a growing attitude in America, the resentment at being forced to contribute to a society that provides the social and physical structures that made your safe and comfortable life possible. It's easy to take the basics of our lives for granted, to treat them as givens, until they are gone.

The Nazis government also forced the contributions of lots of people too.
Request for clarification

Are you comparing the governments of 1930-40 Nazi Germany with the present-day USA? There are some similarities, but the comparison does not lead to any useful conclusions that I can see. Are you suggesting that being taxed by your government is the same as being shipped off to a concentration camp?
My concern is that as I start reading the arguments from those who support taxation as it works today, I am struck by the powerful stench of greed emanating from them. I stand shocked by it.

I am familiar with the shocking greed of rich people who pursue their own ambitions without a shred of concern about moral concerns. This raw and savage conceit is something I am quite familiar with as I often see it coming from deeply corrupt and hateful types. But most often, these types of people will be on the side of tax avoidance, such as Trump.

To see and observe this type of bully stand up for the social robbery for what they, themselves, can get out of it is a bit new to me. Again, I am stunned here. I guess I should just be laughing it off but from experience I know that these types mean business and mean mean business. I think that they are fake socialists because ultimately their concerns isn't for their group but for themselves as individuals. A true socialist will want everyone in their group that can be made happy to be made happy and they are ready to try and innovate to reach that goal. On the other hand, a true capitalist will seek to ensure that everyone is exploited (or taxed) as much as can be with themselves as a possible exception to this rule (when no one is looking). In my opinion, these narcissists need help on a level that's unfortunately beyond my capacity to offer, and the best thing to do is to ignore them and just forge ahead as planned.
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Re: Taxation is violent robbery.

Post by Sy Borg »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: April 29th, 2021, 6:44 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: April 29th, 2021, 10:30 am
Empiricist-Bruno wrote: April 29th, 2021, 7:36 am
Sy Borg wrote: April 29th, 2021, 2:32 am That seems to be a growing attitude in America, the resentment at being forced to contribute to a society that provides the social and physical structures that made your safe and comfortable life possible. It's easy to take the basics of our lives for granted, to treat them as givens, until they are gone.

The Nazis government also forced the contributions of lots of people too.
Request for clarification

Are you comparing the governments of 1930-40 Nazi Germany with the present-day USA? There are some similarities, but the comparison does not lead to any useful conclusions that I can see. Are you suggesting that being taxed by your government is the same as being shipped off to a concentration camp?
My concern is that as I start reading the arguments from those who support taxation as it works today, I am struck by the powerful stench of greed emanating from them. I stand shocked by it.
A bit confused as to why this follows my post. Bruno, I'm pretty sure you are not saying that my support of tax is related to greed, especially since I paid infinitely more tax this year than Rupert Murdoch did in the last five years.
In contrast, Rupert Murdoch’s News Corporation in Australia has paid zero over the five years of available ATO data despite racking up almost $14 billion in total income. That’s despite making $246 million in taxable profits; still a tax rate of zero compared with the statutory corporate tax rate of 30 per cent. Anthony Pratt’s Pratt Consolidated is not much better, posting more than $13 billion in revenue and paying just $18.8 million – a tax rate of just 4.9 per cent on Pratt’s $387 million of taxable income.

Kerry Stokes was much better, his Seven West Media stumping up $209 million over the five years of ATO data, a tax rate of 26 per cent. Stokes has significant investments elsewhere in mining but his personal interests are also grandfathered as he is a pre-1995 billionaire, which is the time of the Keating government when the exemptions were made.

The Packer family, which is not on the list above, has been a significant taxpayer via its shareholding in Crown Resorts. Four years of Tax Office data show Crown paid $435 million. Crown’s accounts show it paid $140 million over the past two years. James Packer sold down the family’s stake by 20 per cent last year to 26 per cent.

Packer is no saint when it comes to paying tax. An investigation for michaelwest.com.au conducted by data expert Kim Prince found the Packer family’s corporate empire has more than 40 tax haven links to the Bahamas, Bermuda and Barbados.
The tax system is deeply unjust, but I cannot see any government winning office with the promise of forcing billionaires pay proper amounts of tax. With Murdoch owning more than half our media, and other billionaires owning the rest, any political party promising such a thing would be attacked into political irrelevance.
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Re: Taxation is violent robbery.

Post by Atla »

Taxes are needed for infrastructure, healthcare systems, education systems, justice systems etc. Without these, people would have to agree to live on farms and self-sustain, and defend themselves when others come to rob/rape/kill them. We wouldn't even have an internet. :) Or vaccines. Little to no science. Taxes are the lesser evil, and since most voters are selfish idiots everywhere around the world, governments are invariably corrupt.
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Re: Taxation is violent robbery.

Post by Steve3007 »

Sy Borg wrote:
Steve3007 wrote:That is that I am, in principle, in favour of the non-consensual violent robbery more commonly referred to as taxation, even if I don't always agree with the way it's spent. I agree enough to believe that on balance I prefer a society in which certain services whose continuity and relative consistency I consider to be essential are funded by taxation.
Ditto. Still, with so much money simply being printed during 2020, people have been asking if governments ever needed taxation?
I think here you're starting to explore the issues that were explored a bit more in the two topics on Modern Monetary Theory, and the resistance to the simplistic analogies between national economies and household budgets that politicians often make (usually when trying to justify cuts in public spending.)
After all, the money is worth the value of the government's fiat rather than being tied to a limited resource like gold. China has shown how an ungrounded currency can be used to buy anything within its borders.

I keep waiting for hyperinflation to set in but the bubble just keeps growing. At this stage, the impending economic collapse keeps being shored up but, like an old mine shored up one too many times, the break point will surely arrive.
Well, if bitcoin ever did become a viable means of exchange to rival the world's leading fiat currencies (US dollar etc) maybe we'll find that hyperinflation has already started to happen. After all, in bitcoin terms, our dollars, euros and pounds are already worth only a fraction of what they were a year ago. I'd already need a wheelbarrow of money to buy one. But it probably doesn't work like that. I'm too ignorant of global economics to know exactly how it does, and will, work. On cryptocurrencies, I suspect most people agree with John Oliver when he said: "It's everything you don’t understand about money combined with everything you don’t understand about computers".
Imagine living with 1.3 billion people, knowing that any rebellion will probably lead to widespread starvation again (and rest assured, the CCP will make sure that that happens on the way out if they are toppled). So there is an underlying desperation, a sense of of the Sword of Damocles ever dangling overhead by a thread. So the Chinese don't find the squashing of people's perceptions and creativity horrifying, just a necessary evil. That is where I think the west is heading - unless they address their own population vs infrastructure issues.
Possibly. I hope not (obviously).
Are you poking the bear again, Steven? :lol:
:lol: . Just acknowledging your previously expressed thoughts about the long term future of humanity and our technological offspring.
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Re: Taxation is violent robbery.

Post by Sculptor1 »

Steve3007 wrote: April 21st, 2021, 6:02 am Image

Out of interest, the above is a breakdown of current forecast annual public sector spending (violent robbery spending) in the UK. Source.
As you can see, defence is a relatively small part. Pre-covid, the biggest single bloc of spending was on health (NHS).
Pure socialist evil.
How dare they??
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Re: Taxation is violent robbery.

Post by Steve3007 »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote:I had a guy bust my place's front door with a gun and a mask and who then proceeded to ask me where the money was.
Any thoughts on what, if anything, you'd like to be done to minimize the likelihood of this kind of thing happening and/or to be done after it happens? Do you think that guy, ideally, should be arrested, tried and sentenced to some kind of punishment, like a prison sentence or something? If so, do you think the police officers, judges, lawyers, prison officers, etc, should be paid for their work?
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Re: Taxation is violent robbery.

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Empiricist-Bruno wrote:My concern is that as I start reading the arguments from those who support taxation as it works today, I am struck by the powerful stench of greed emanating from them. I stand shocked by it.
Could you quote an example of that stench?
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Re: Taxation is violent robbery.

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

Steve3007 wrote: April 30th, 2021, 8:58 am
Empiricist-Bruno wrote:I had a guy bust my place's front door with a gun and a mask and who then proceeded to ask me where the money was.
Any thoughts on what, if anything, you'd like to be done to minimize the likelihood of this kind of thing happening and/or to be done after it happens? Do you think that guy, ideally, should be arrested, tried and sentenced to some kind of punishment, like a prison sentence or something? If so, do you think the police officers, judges, lawyers, prison officers, etc, should be paid for their work?
My existence on this planet is first and foremost that of a wild being, like a pigeon. I just live day by day hoping it will be a happy one and working with that aim in mind. I do not wish to stop anyone doing what they feel like doing and if you want to rob others that's enough to make me feel sorry for you, a little.

His stay at my place was very brief. He asked for the money and immediately after that, we heard his partner calling him back with his shot gun blast through the wall, which also broke my window by the way. He left me alone mere seconds after that blast. I was still able to get a good day that day, although the second wave of gunmen coming to my place did give me a harder time. They took command of my dwelling for hours...They also violently forced me to appear in court as a witness later on...

In the long list of morally bankrupt people that I would like to see arrested and punished appropriately, that guy certainly would not be anywhere near the top. At the top of that list would be Justin Trudeau, Premier of Canada, for his betrayal of Canadians over his abandonment of his electoral reform that helped him get elected as a key electoral promise. As long as this isn't happening, I'd be happy to give every petty crook (or police accused person) a pardon, or at least one pardon.

In my opinion, you do not deserve a pardon if you swindle several millions of people out of the future they want.
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Re: Taxation is violent robbery.

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

Pattern-chaser wrote: April 29th, 2021, 10:30 am
Empiricist-Bruno wrote: April 29th, 2021, 7:36 am
Sy Borg wrote: April 29th, 2021, 2:32 am That seems to be a growing attitude in America, the resentment at being forced to contribute to a society that provides the social and physical structures that made your safe and comfortable life possible. It's easy to take the basics of our lives for granted, to treat them as givens, until they are gone.

The Nazis government also forced the contributions of lots of people too.
Request for clarification

Are you comparing the governments of 1930-40 Nazi Germany with the present-day USA? There are some similarities, but the comparison does not lead to any useful conclusions that I can see. Are you suggesting that being taxed by your government is the same as being shipped off to a concentration camp?
Yes, I will clarify this for you. I wanted to highlight the forced contribution of german prisoners to the Nazi society in which they lived. These contribution (forced labor) really helped Germany who could then improve the prisoners' conditions and reward them with the fruits of their forced labor. So nothing wrong was done to German prisoners during the past world wars and so they ought to have been happy about their situation and not seek to escape from it onto a world that might not provide as good support.
Similarly, in today's world, people ought not to try to find a way around their forced contributions?

So the point here is to try to highlight the angle that in many places, forced contribution are not associated with true well-being but rather with oppression and gazillion lies. I do feel that much lying as been done and the untruths are being repeated by those who have unfortunately accepted them somehow.
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Re: Taxation is violent robbery.

Post by Sy Borg »

Steve3007 wrote: April 30th, 2021, 7:15 am
Sy Borg wrote:
Steve3007 wrote:That is that I am, in principle, in favour of the non-consensual violent robbery more commonly referred to as taxation, even if I don't always agree with the way it's spent. I agree enough to believe that on balance I prefer a society in which certain services whose continuity and relative consistency I consider to be essential are funded by taxation.
Ditto. Still, with so much money simply being printed during 2020, people have been asking if governments ever needed taxation?
I think here you're starting to explore the issues that were explored a bit more in the two topics on Modern Monetary Theory, and the resistance to the simplistic analogies between national economies and household budgets that politicians often make (usually when trying to justify cuts in public spending.)
After all, the money is worth the value of the government's fiat rather than being tied to a limited resource like gold. China has shown how an ungrounded currency can be used to buy anything within its borders.

I keep waiting for hyperinflation to set in but the bubble just keeps growing. At this stage, the impending economic collapse keeps being shored up but, like an old mine shored up one too many times, the break point will surely arrive.
Well, if bitcoin ever did become a viable means of exchange to rival the world's leading fiat currencies (US dollar etc) maybe we'll find that hyperinflation has already started to happen. After all, in bitcoin terms, our dollars, euros and pounds are already worth only a fraction of what they were a year ago. I'd already need a wheelbarrow of money to buy one. But it probably doesn't work like that. I'm too ignorant of global economics to know exactly how it does, and will, work. On cryptocurrencies, I suspect most people agree with John Oliver when he said: "It's everything you don’t understand about money combined with everything you don’t understand about computers".
Interesting point that, in a sense, we already see hyperinflation.

it. My nephew ensured that I had some Bitcoin in my super - it's great ATM but, as you say, a massively unknown quantity. He has tried to explain blockchain and Bitcoin to me multiple times and it always confuses me. It's rather like when you ask about the job of someone who worked as some kind of middleman - it all seems rather woolly, pointless and ephemeral. Yet these things are solid and have a point, just that their nature crosses my "meta threshold". The world is becoming getting ever more meta, ever more layered with seemingly unsupportable human abstractions, like the foam on an ocean. Or maybe scum on the surface :)

In the end, people on their deathbeds never wish they had engaged in more meta activity. The main regrets tend to involve insufficient attention paid to the basic relationships of life with humans and other beings. (I'd be surprised if tax much features in deathbed reminiscences and regrets).

Steve3007 wrote: April 30th, 2021, 7:15 am
Imagine living with 1.3 billion people, knowing that any rebellion will probably lead to widespread starvation again (and rest assured, the CCP will make sure that that happens on the way out if they are toppled). So there is an underlying desperation, a sense of of the Sword of Damocles ever dangling overhead by a thread. So the Chinese don't find the squashing of people's perceptions and creativity horrifying, just a necessary evil. That is where I think the west is heading - unless they address their own population vs infrastructure issues.
Possibly. I hope not (obviously).
Then you are hoping we can address our population and infrastructure issues. And how we can segue gracefully into my pet topic - the upcoming societal and eventual species split between H. sapiens and H. machina :))) We can already see billionaires and their multinational enterprises decoupling from the taxation system (with some acting more like parasites than participants, ahem, Rupert *cough cough*).

There will most likely come a time when the Caesarian/test tube baby generations of the well-to-do will be unable to safely breed with the masses. I can imagine future issues with increased head size. Once people have nanobot enhancements, that should change the situation even more. At this point there would be two economic systems that are largely separate - thriving B2B enterprises between those holding the vast majority of the wealth and much smaller economies, albeit with many more people. It will be like comparing the Roman Empire with the ecosystems within its territories. The relationship, I expect, will be much the same too.

At that point people will be much more accustomed to violent robbery, just as other species often see their territories violently stolen from them by humans. It will be rather like tax, only more violent and without trickling the money back into the system. Generally speaking, thieves don't use the takings to build infrastructure for their victims. That is, taxation may, in time, become actual violent robbery.
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Re: Taxation is violent robbery.

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Steve3007 wrote: April 30th, 2021, 9:10 am
Empiricist-Bruno wrote:My concern is that as I start reading the arguments from those who support taxation as it works today, I am struck by the powerful stench of greed emanating from them. I stand shocked by it.
Could you quote an example of that stench?
Quoting stench is quite something to accomplish. I don't know if I can do that but I surely can give you an idea of how I get it.

See, I am vegan and now we have a covid vaccine that has been tested first on monkeys and which is now in the process of saving the world but I can't have it myself because I am vegan and that's an animal tested product.

Products that have been tested on animals bear an incredible stench, don't you agree? Do you not smell it, in the sense of detecting it? The whole vaccined world population will really stink now for quite a while and it didn't need to be that way.

But lots of people will defend the stinking products (including violently obtained taxation) never able, it would seem, to pick up the bad smell that's associated with it because bullying animals is ok, bullyism is fine or excusable and traditional and provides all sorts of benefits (greed).

And sometimes these types are so out of touch with reality that they will think of themselves as kind, respectable people. I mean when you are a bully, you bully the truth and the sound arguments away just as you bully everything else and then as a result of having bullied the criticism away, no one ever let them know how much they stink. I am just talking truth to power here. That smells good, a little. I think.
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Re: Taxation is violent robbery.

Post by Steve3007 »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote:Products that have been tested on animals bear an incredible stench, don't you agree?
So your objection is to the use of animal testing in drug development which you see as an objection to taxation. Understood.
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Re: Taxation is violent robbery.

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Empiricist-Bruno wrote:In the long list of morally bankrupt people that I would like to see arrested and punished appropriately, that guy certainly would not be anywhere near the top. At the top of that list would be Justin Trudeau, Premier of Canada, for his betrayal of Canadians over his abandonment of his electoral reform that helped him get elected as a key electoral promise.
So would you be in favour of paying for their efforts the people who arrest, try, sentence and punish Justin Trudeau for whatever crimes you think he's committed? i.e. are you in favour of any form of policing and judiciary which is more than just a group of unpaid volunteers (a.k.a. vigilantes) or people paid from charitable donations? If so, how would you propose that they be paid? Would the fact that animal testing of drugs occurs mean that the answer wouldn't be taxation?
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Re: Taxation is violent robbery.

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

Steve3007 wrote: May 4th, 2021, 4:11 am
Empiricist-Bruno wrote:In the long list of morally bankrupt people that I would like to see arrested and punished appropriately, that guy certainly would not be anywhere near the top. At the top of that list would be Justin Trudeau, Premier of Canada, for his betrayal of Canadians over his abandonment of his electoral reform that helped him get elected as a key electoral promise.
So would you be in favour of paying for their efforts the people who arrest, try, sentence and punish Justin Trudeau for whatever crimes you think he's committed? i.e. are you in favour of any form of policing and judiciary which is more than just a group of unpaid volunteers (a.k.a. vigilantes) or people paid from charitable donations? If so, how would you propose that they be paid? Would the fact that animal testing of drugs occurs mean that the answer wouldn't be taxation?
No, I would not be in favor of paying anyone trying to arrest Justin Trudeau. We live in times of bullyism and I certainly didn't mean to say that I wished to see Justin be arrested with the bullying approach used by today's justice people. I just meant to say that if I had the choice between seeing the guy who attempted to mug me in a home invasion being targeted by police or seeing Justin Trudeau (who deprived me of his promised electoral reform in a swindle to get elected) targeted, I would certainly prefer to see Justin having the dogs sent after him.

Anyway, all these justice people back him up and would consider any attempt to stop him as an illegal act of interference with government. So the criticism won't reach Justin as it should and so he gets to think everyone approves of him and that those who do not don't count as they can't make themselves heard. So, he thinks he's good and his cult entirely agrees. It is stinking madness.

My interest isn't in stoping any bad guy because they are like children misbehaving to get attention and you got to know which battle is worth your time. I am much more in favor of defunding the police for instance. Now that would be a more reasonable activist goal.

As far as whether I support any policing, I would say that no, I don't support any policing as we know it today in a world where taxation is obtained through violent means.

Your last question isn't clear to me; if you would be kind enough to restate in in other words, maybe that would help me understand. Thanks for your questions.
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