Should humanity be unified under a single government?

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marigold_23
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Should humanity be unified under a single government?

Post by marigold_23 »

Should humanity be unified under a single government? Why or why not? If you were required to set up this government, what kind of government would you create? What threats to sustainability would arise and how would you deal with them? I'd love to hear anyone's thought on this.
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Re: Should humanity be unified under a single government?

Post by Nick_A »

marigold_23 wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 10:19 am Should humanity be unified under a single government? Why or why not? If you were required to set up this government, what kind of government would you create? What threats to sustainability would arise and how would you deal with them? I'd love to hear anyone's thought on this.
The ideal government has the goal of creating individuals capable of feeling and acting upon its objective meaning and purpose as opposed to creating psychological slaves to government. We are incapable of this quality of government if for no other reason since there are no impartial philosopher kings who could govern it. So all good intentions invariably devolve into corruption natural for the being of Man.
“Whether the mask is labeled fascism, democracy, or dictatorship of the proletariat, our great adversary remains the apparatus—the bureaucracy, the police, the military. Not the one facing us across the frontier of the battle lines, which is not so much our enemy as our brothers' enemy, but the one that calls itself our protector and makes us its slaves. No matter what the circumstances, the worst betrayal will always be to subordinate ourselves to this apparatus and to trample underfoot, in its service, all human values in ourselves and in others.”
― Simone Weil
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
marigold_23
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Re: Should humanity be unified under a single government?

Post by marigold_23 »

Hello Nick_A,
I love the quote by Simone Weil you included.
I agree there is never a perfect government but would you be against the establishment of government? Or, would you be of the opinion that there should be a government and also that there is always an ideal government (and would you be for or against implementing a government that presides over the entire species?)
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Re: Should humanity be unified under a single government?

Post by Nick_A »

marigold_23 wrote: April 23rd, 2021, 2:03 pm Hello Nick_A,
I love the quote by Simone Weil you included.
I agree there is never a perfect government but would you be against the establishment of government? Or, would you be of the opinion that there should be a government and also that there is always an ideal government (and would you be for or against implementing a government that presides over the entire species?)
My response may be considered insulting in these times which celebrate education but as I understand it, society is the Great Beast Plato described. If true, can there be an ideal government for a beast?

From Book VI of his Republic (here Plato critiques those who are "wise" through their study of society):
I might compare them to a man who should study the tempers and desires of a mighty strong beast who is fed by him--he would learn how to approach and handle him, also at what times and from what causes he is dangerous or the reverse, and what is the meaning of his several cries, and by what sounds, when another utters them, he is soothed or infuriated; and you may suppose further, that when, by continually attending upon him, he has become perfect in all this, he calls his knowledge wisdom, and makes of it a system or art, which he proceeds to teach, although he has no real notion of what he means by the principles or passions of which he is speaking, but calls this honourable and that dishonourable, or good or evil, or just or unjust, all in accordance with the tastes and tempers of the great brute. Good he pronounces to be that in which the beast delights and evil to be that which he dislikes...
Plato's Republic is good example of a potential world government, but the hypocrisy of human being prevents it. A world government is doomed to failure due to the nature of the Beast which perverts the concept of the philosopher king into tyrants like Hitler.

The great beast like other beasts of the jungle are born, live, reproduce and die. Seeing that this is the nature of the Beast, I support thee rare individuals who seek to evolve from the Beast and become human. It is only through the lives and the efforts of these rare ones that the fall of society can be less catastrophic.

World governments are impossible to sustain because as a whole since as we ARE as we ARE, everything remains as it is. Educating the leopard doesn't change its spots. So I support these rare individuals and their efforts to escape the prison of Plato's Cave and become become human.
Thomas Merton records being asked to review a biography of Weil (Simone Weil: A Fellowship in Love, Jacques Chabaud, 1964) and was challenged and inspired by her writing. “Her non-conformism and mysticism are essential elements in our time and without her contribution we remain not human.”
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
marigold_23
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Re: Should humanity be unified under a single government?

Post by marigold_23 »

Nick_A,
Thank you for your considerate response. Would I be correct then in interpreting from this that you would support (as you put it) the more or less catastrophic fall of society as orchestrated by humane, intelligent social servants? Would you specifically desire to see industrial agrarian civilization fall (as it is a rather recent development in our nomadic, hunter gatherer history as a species) or would you support the destruction of every social construct at any scale (from family dynamics, generational dynamics, sexual dynamics, tribal/class dynamics, etc...)? In either case, how would such a transformation away from the said organized social structure(s) be a lasting state...
As I see it, the treatment of humanity with political interest necessitates at minimum an interst in human conservation and wellfare. With this in mind. If we say civilization is a detriment to human wellfare and stop trying to improve it, instead setting about the process of dismantling it, (believing disorganized society is more sustainable), how would we prevent the re-emergence of civilization and government without (ironically) just such a government in place to prevent that reemergence... the issue I see with this rejection of bureaucracy and organized society is that I don't see a viable alternative option...
If we dismantle an organization or institution without replacement, we leave a vacuum... civilization and nationalization arose from this same vaccum, out of natural selection... the vaccum left by the dismantling of power is statistically likely to be occupied by means of base instincts and a pention for brutality, selfishness, deception, etc...would you disagree with this? Or have I misunderstood your position altogether?
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Re: Should humanity be unified under a single government?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

marigold_23 wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 10:19 am Should humanity be unified under a single government? Why or why not? If you were required to set up this government, what kind of government would you create? What threats to sustainability would arise and how would you deal with them? I'd love to hear anyone's thought on this.
Yes. Why? Well, there are many possible reasons - theoretical ones - that I could describe. But I think a concrete example is better. Climate change due to global warming is an existential threat to humanity. The only small chance remaining of our survival is to think, plan and act together, globally. Even then, our chances of success, and thereby survival, are small. Small, but not yet (quite) nonexistent. A global government would be a big help in this, so there's a reason for you.
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Re: Should humanity be unified under a single government?

Post by UniversalAlien »

First, the many arguments against World government - the so called 'New World Order' are many
and there have been many books of conspiracy theory including fictional works like George Orwell's dystopian classic "1984".

In a world ruled by computers and artificial intelligence, the world government can get very totalitarian and bestial very quickly - And may be impossible to get rid of once it has control.

But I always come back to this scenario:
An advanced race of hypothetical aliens lands on the planet Earth and says 'take us to your leader'.
So government officials all over the World ask who do we take them to?
Sorry we say we do not have a leader.
The aliens get back on their craft and leave - the Human race is too primitive and lacks sufficient unity
for an advanced race to communicate with - Maybe they will return one day when 'Humanity' is unified and its intelligence is capable of communication with higher forms of being :?:
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Re: Should humanity be unified under a single government?

Post by marigold_23 »

[/quote]
Yes. Why? Well, there are many possible reasons - theoretical ones - that I could describe. But I think a concrete example is better. Climate change due to global warming is an existential threat to humanity. The only small chance remaining of our survival is to think, plan and act together, globally. Even then, our chances of success, and thereby survival, are small. Small, but not yet (quite) nonexistent. A global government would be a big help in this, so there's a reason for you.
[/quote]

Hey Pattern-chaser,
I agree with you that global cooperation is essential for dealing with the threat of global warming. My primary concern regarding global warming (as far as I can deduce from the data currently available) is war resulting from mass migrations from coastal regions, particularly around southeast Asia and Africa due to sea levels rising and mass migrations from areas around the equator due to intolerable heat and intense drought causing water shortages and crop failures... and, added to this, an as yet uncertain increase (though we know it will be a big one) in wildfires, flooding, and hurricanes, which will devastate those same locations, particularly affecting rural communities. The number of deaths will be catastrophic. I've heard conflicting data regarding the affect on the biosphere as a whole... I'm sadly not surprised to hear that global warming has been and will continue to increase the rate of extinction for certain species, though I am more concerned with the continuing negative affects of deforestation, over-development, pollution and over fishing on wildlife. I am hopeful, based on the data available, that the global food supply will not be so diminished as to present a risk of human extinction by starvation due to crop failures... ironically, I've heard crops in many areas may flourish with global warming. I believe the human species can survive global warming, but it is likely to be an unfair, tyrannical sort of survival, where the people of the west retain an advantage and maintain regular food supplies and fresh water while the people of South-East Asia, Africa, South and Central America are pulverized... Generally, the higher classes of the west have a much better outlook than the rest of the world.
My primary concern is not that we will melt off of the face of the earth from global warming, or even that we will run out of resources as a species... My worry is that those resources will be so poorly distributed, governments so inefficient, and people pushed to such extremes of despair and justified hatred, that we will be faced with a War which may rival the second World War... I am afraid (as everyone has been since 1945) of nuclear war.

I think we must unite as a single nation for that reason... which is terribly unlikely, even less likely to happen peacefully... for such a revolution to occur violently would be a horrifying price to pay for our survival as a species, but it may become necessary... unfortunately, I expect our weaponry will continue to advance (given it's current pace, likely even past nuclear weapons), and we may be looking at a narrow window of time before war becomes, not only inevitable, but impossible to survive as a species.

What sort of government could preside over the entire species is a frightening concept...particularly the ways it could fail... but (in my view) still not so frightening as extinction...and I think we may be nearing the point where we will be forced to choose between the two as a species.
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Re: Should humanity be unified under a single government?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

UniversalAlien wrote: April 24th, 2021, 5:58 pm But I always come back to this scenario:
An advanced race of hypothetical aliens lands on the planet Earth and says 'take us to your leader'.
So government officials all over the World ask who do we take them to?
Sorry, we say we do not have a leader.
The aliens get back on their craft and leave - the Human race is too primitive and lacks sufficient unity
for an advanced race to communicate with - Maybe they will return one day when 'Humanity' is unified and its intelligence is capable of communication with higher forms of being :?:

So is this parable intended to illustrate a potential advantage of having - or not having - a global government? Does it recommend global government, or oppose the idea? I can't quite see which...?
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Re: Should humanity be unified under a single government?

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marigold_23 wrote: April 24th, 2021, 11:45 pm My primary concern is not that we will melt off of the face of the earth from global warming, or even that we will run out of resources as a species...
I agree with most of what you say, so I offer this comment. It might be minor or trivial, or it might not. Judge for yourself. 🙂

Your words consider things in solely human terms, and I believe this is a significant part of the problem. Why did you choose to say "or even that we will run out of resources as a species", when you might have said, "or even that we will run out of resources as a planet/world/ecosystem"? Please understand I do not attack you personally; many/most commentators would probably have phrased themselves similarly. I ask all of us these questions, even though they are apparently directed at you.

While it is the case that our current problems have been caused by humanity, these problems affect our entire environment. The solution to these problems, if there is one, is partly dependent, I feel, on us finally getting the idea that all life on this planet is in this together. A solution that considers only one species, or one country, or whatever, is possibly unfit for purpose?
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Re: Should humanity be unified under a single government?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: April 25th, 2021, 7:48 am
marigold_23 wrote: April 24th, 2021, 11:45 pm My primary concern is not that we will melt off of the face of the earth from global warming, or even that we will run out of resources as a species...
I agree with most of what you say, so I offer this comment. It might be minor or trivial, or it might not. Judge for yourself. 🙂

Your words consider things in solely human terms, and I believe this is a significant part of the problem. Why did you choose to say "or even that we will run out of resources as a species", when you might have said, "or even that we will run out of resources as a planet/world/ecosystem"? Please understand I do not attack you personally; many/most commentators would probably have phrased themselves similarly. I ask all of us these questions, even though they are apparently directed at you.

While it is the case that our current problems have been caused by humanity, these problems affect our entire environment. The solution to these problems, if there is one, is partly dependent, I feel, on us finally getting the idea that all life on this planet is in this together. A solution that considers only one species, or one country, or whatever, is possibly unfit for purpose?
Sorry, I've drifted off from global government into one specific example. No derail intended...
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Re: Should humanity be unified under a single government?

Post by marigold_23 »

I agree with most of what you say, so I offer this comment. It might be minor or trivial, or it might not. Judge for yourself. 🙂

Your words consider things in solely human terms, and I believe this is a significant part of the problem. Why did you choose to say "or even that we will run out of resources as a species", when you might have said, "or even that we will run out of resources as a planet/world/ecosystem"? Please understand I do not attack you personally; many/most commentators would probably have phrased themselves similarly. I ask all of us these questions, even though they are apparently directed at you.


While it is the case that our current problems have been caused by humanity, these problems affect our entire environment. The solution to these problems, if there is one, is partly dependent, I feel, on us finally getting the idea that all life on this planet is in this together. A solution that considers only one species, or one country, or whatever, is possibly unfit for purpose?

Sorry, I've drifted off from global government into one specific example. No derail intended...
Pattern-chaser, thanks for your response,

Not at all, this seems to be a good context in which to discuss it. What you have said is not trivial, it is very important... (I apologize for having such a lengthy response)

I think you are right that there is a certain common narcissistic cultural perspective which is fallacious that should begin to evolve into something more accurate and considerate

Admittedly, I'm tempted to take your side completely here... I am, frankly, disgusted by the perspective which western society has historically taken that: "The world is given to us by God" and "all living things exist only to serve us." This is ridiculous of course... all living things exist tenuously and in competition. That you will be alive tomorrow is not a certain thing. also the idea that resources are limitless is an are arrogant assumption.

I also know that, as you say, the argument you've presented here is less popular (certainly in modern times when we are all capitalist, industrialized, and westernized) than the common argument that "man is superior" and that resources are limitless...; that animals are inferior to humans, that they cannot feel, or that their feelings are unimportant. And there is this obsession with the self as totally paramount to all other considerations... By presenting this argument of connectedness, you are immediately at a disadvantage...our modern culture in the west is often stupid, arrogant, and selfish... and I admire the Eastern perspective that says we are "connected" to all things and that the concept of self is an illusion. I think there is truth to this conclusion, perhaps an absolute, unrelative truth... personally, I've found it to be a useful consideration for mental health and in meditation... people should dwell on it often... in general, I agree with Alan Watts that we should dwell on death as a state as relevant to true existence as our life... I believe that duality and individuality eventually cease prior to a more fundamental being...

Unfortunately though, I think I must disagree with your political conclusion... It seems to me that there are certain requirements (certain contained assumptions) prior to any political involvement...maybe it is as illusory as the self, but even if it's a game, then there are rules to follow. Among them is that we must have desire and we must be discriminatory in our ascription of value... we must select a nation and an "other" that is not our nation… our nation must be our species as a whole. To live in society, one must live "relative"... this is not the same as total connectedness with everything... to live "relative" you must live "apart" to that thing to some extent... you survive despite it, respectful of the fact that your environment (the other) is never fully known to you... there will always be an insecurity...an unknown element of our environment. I believe we must respect our environment, worship it, sacrifice to it... but not for it's own sake... no religious respect was ever constructed out of thin air... people sacrificed to the sun and to the rain for fear of hunger... to the lightning and to thunder for fear of it's power to destroy and to burn... we should not respect anything unconditionally in my opinion...

I also think there is a limit to the extent one can "use" the principles of total connectedness in politics and in active living... It may temporarily strengthen empathy for us to believe things have worth in themselves, but I think we inevitably betray that we don't truly believe that as we live... I don't think this is a bad thing, so long as we are wise in our determinations of worth...

A spiderweb, for instance, is beautiful to me, specifically for it's individuality... it's disconnectedness with its otherwise chaotic, asymmetric surroundings. I don't value it in itself, simply because it exists... I value it's qualities... without those, I would not ascribe beauty to it, and I would not care about it... I admire it's qualities, because I have the predilection for admiration and attention to what is different and unique... these qualities have survived the test of time, because what is noticeable can be stored as memory and used for survival... the spiderweb is a being, because it is noticeable and individual...What is noticeable is recorded as a being by the mind because this behavior can survive. From this, we might deduce that respect itself is a trait of survival, and is therefore relative to the individual (along with any concept of value, including morality).

I'm sorry for this tangent, it is an interesting subject which I often think about.

In answer to your question, I choose to say "my species” quite consciously, rather than including the entire ecosystem. One species can run out of resources while another remains unaffected… I am concerned with the preservation of other species, because they are beautiful and admirable, but primarily as it happens to be the case that their preservation benefits humanity…There are certain species which are more important to our survival than others…some whose destruction we would even benefit from, such as the malaria carrying mosquito...

A sort of “nationalism” of the species is also relevant to this topic… I believe our species must unite culturally, socially, and genetically for the species as a whole to have the best chance of survival and the least likelihood of war from internal nationalism, racism, religious differences, etc… we are one species, I believe that is a message which will need to be ingrained in our culture if we are to survive as an industrialized, globalized civilization.

We are also, as you say, one ecosystem, one planet, one solar system, one universe, one matter... but if you are political, it becomes necessary to pick an organization which you would like to preserve above others... or I think one must reconcile themselves to total passivity...
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Re: Should humanity be unified under a single government?

Post by UniversalAlien »

United Nations (UN)

"What Is the United Nations (UN)?
The United Nations, commonly referred to by its initial: UN, is an international nonprofit organization formed in 1945 to increase political and economic cooperation among its member countries.

KEY TAKEAWAYS
The United Nations is an international governing body formed in 1945 to increase political and economic cooperation among its member countries.
The UN grew out of the League of Nations following World War II, and now boasts membership among nearly every country in the world.
It is made up of five principal arms, including the UN Economic and Social Council, which coordinates the work of 15 specialized agencies."
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/u/un ... ons-un.asp

I can not remember the last time the UN was mentioned on US news media
- Why ???

Should humanity be unified under a single government? You ask????

And yet the bought and paid for news media pretends the UN doesn't even exist
- Why? Because an old conspiracy theory is true - A group of super wealthy power brokers continue to manipulate the World as they opt for complete control - And they are clandestine about it
- they give you, the peasants, the UN :!:
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Re: Should humanity be unified under a single government?

Post by marigold_23 »

UniversalAlien wrote: April 25th, 2021, 10:39 pm United Nations (UN)

"What Is the United Nations (UN)?
The United Nations, commonly referred to by its initial: UN, is an international nonprofit organization formed in 1945 to increase political and economic cooperation among its member countries.

KEY TAKEAWAYS
The United Nations is an international governing body formed in 1945 to increase political and economic cooperation among its member countries.
The UN grew out of the League of Nations following World War II, and now boasts membership among nearly every country in the world.
It is made up of five principal arms, including the UN Economic and Social Council, which coordinates the work of 15 specialized agencies."
/terms/u/united-nations-un.asp

I can not remember the last time the UN was mentioned on US news media
- Why ???

Should humanity be unified under a single government? You ask????

And yet the bought and paid for news media pretends the UN doesn't even exist
- Why? Because an old conspiracy theory is true - A group of super wealthy power brokers continue to manipulate the World as they opt for complete control - And they are clandestine about it
- they give you, the peasants, the UN :!:
Hey UniversalAlien, thanks for your response
I'm sorry, but are you answering yes or no to the question of whether humanity should be unified under a single government?
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Re: Should humanity be unified under a single government?

Post by UniversalAlien »

marigold_23 wrote: April 25th, 2021, 11:30 pm Hey UniversalAlien, thanks for your response
I'm sorry, but are you answering yes or no to the question of whether humanity should be unified under a single government?
Hi Marigold,
As you might surmise from my first response, I have mixed feelings on this subject

1. The risk of complete Totalitarian World control is always staring us in he face when thinking about any type of World Government - Often referred to by conspiracy theorists as the 'New World Order'.
[ie. Orwell's "1884"]

2. I still believe a single unified agency or government would indicate a higher level of civilization
- In a civilized World war, bloody wars. life and death conflicts. would end - We would always find a way to settle our differences without war.

3. How would you institute a World Government? How can you make most of the World's nations agree on the system, would sign on, or vote for this? We already have the United Nations {UN} which when I was younger was often in the news - When is the last time you even heard the UN mentioned in the news?
- What happened? - What went wrong?

4. Like I say the worldwide wealthy power players may not want a unified world government
- 'They' can assert more control and power by operating in a clandestine manner.
For more on this I suggest: "The Unseen Hand: An Introduction to the Conspiratorial View of History"
by A. Ralph Epperson (Author)
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