What should be the primary purpose of a government

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marigold_23
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What should be the primary purpose of a government

Post by marigold_23 »

I'd like to think that whatever political "camp" or party a person falls into is eventually determined by one's answer to this question. Is government meant simply to execute the majority will of the populace? Or, should a governments obedience to the will of the populace be considered separate to and either more or less important than a governments obedience to an established goal for the populace. For instance, no one would question that people can make terrible mistakes in judgement... we might suppose that even a majority of a population could make a joint error in judgement, perhaps even a fatal error. Should a government be responsible for the sustainability of the population, even in contradiction to that population's judgement if the two should ever become exclusively opposed to one another?

The purpose of any government is expressed in what function(s) it executes... so to answer this question, one may respond with what function(s) they think a government should execute: Should it be: "whatever function it is asked to carry out by the majority of citizens"... or, alternatively: "Whatever function best expresses the nature/desire of it's citizens (such as survival and prosperity) even if it contradicts the expressed function it is asked to carry out by what must in that instance be a mistaken function by an erroneous majority." (if we assume a majority can ever be in error)

I'd love to hear anyone's opinion here.
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Re: What should be the primary purpose of a government

Post by Scott »

Can you define "should"?

Generally speaking, in my philosophy, there are no shoulds, there are no oughts, and there is no try. In my philosophy, there is can and cannot; and, from can, there is do or do not.
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
marigold_23
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Re: What should be the primary purpose of a government

Post by marigold_23 »

Scott,
I like that, I may try to think of a way to rephrase the question... for now though, I hope this will suffice. Please tell me if you still think the question is problematic.

"Should" here is relative to the subjectivity of the one responding.

It is hypothetical for one, and it is in reference to an abstract future, such that it refers to the past and the present state of society in order to illustrate a desired transformation from those states to a new one (unless one is perfectly satisfied with the current state), or a direction towards some future state as opposed to different directions towards less desirable future states.

Here, a person may express the kind of government they would desire to exist and the kind of social organization they would want to exist in.

I am not meaning to say "should" in an objective or universal sense. Unless we first establish a specific and necessarily subjective function of government, this sort of objective evaluation of government would be impossible. I'm not proposing a universal answer to this question.

Unless one interprets this question as asking how can a government best "persist", such that they automatically assume the function of persistence given that the government in question must exist according to the question's parameters and answer with a suggestion of a hypothetically permenant social organization... (that would be really cool, please anyone feel free to do that)...otherwise, I am asking anyone who responds to propose a subjective function of government based at minimum on their own desire (which will probably be, as expected, a competing desire between freedom and security, both expressive of a deeper desire of survival).
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LuckyR
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Re: What should be the primary purpose of a government

Post by LuckyR »

marigold_23 wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 10:42 am I'd like to think that whatever political "camp" or party a person falls into is eventually determined by one's answer to this question. Is government meant simply to execute the majority will of the populace? Or, should a governments obedience to the will of the populace be considered separate to and either more or less important than a governments obedience to an established goal for the populace. For instance, no one would question that people can make terrible mistakes in judgement... we might suppose that even a majority of a population could make a joint error in judgement, perhaps even a fatal error. Should a government be responsible for the sustainability of the population, even in contradiction to that population's judgement if the two should ever become exclusively opposed to one another?

The purpose of any government is expressed in what function(s) it executes... so to answer this question, one may respond with what function(s) they think a government should execute: Should it be: "whatever function it is asked to carry out by the majority of citizens"... or, alternatively: "Whatever function best expresses the nature/desire of it's citizens (such as survival and prosperity) even if it contradicts the expressed function it is asked to carry out by what must in that instance be a mistaken function by an erroneous majority." (if we assume a majority can ever be in error)

I'd love to hear anyone's opinion here.
I believe in representative government, as opposed to true democracy. That is I prefer having a professional government of specialists who have access to better information than what is available to the public, more time and interest to ponder issues than the average citizen. Thus they have a higher chance of coming to the correct solution to problems than the voters who elected them. Therefore to answer your question, I want my government to not blindly follow voters but give the best answer based on the best information.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: What should be the primary purpose of a government

Post by Scott »

marigold_23 wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 6:41 pm "Should" here is relative to the subjectivity of the one responding.

It is hypothetical for one, and it is in reference to an abstract future, such that it refers to the past and the present state of society in order to illustrate a desired transformation from those states to a new one (unless one is perfectly satisfied with the current state), or a direction towards some future state as opposed to different directions towards less desirable future states.

Here, a person may express the kind of government they would desire to exist and the kind of social organization they would want to exist in.
Hi, marigold_23,

If I am understanding correctly, you are asking what kind of government I subjectively desire to exist in a hypothetical future.

May I ask another follow-up question; As you use the word, does 'government' necessarily entail non-consensual non-defensive violence (e.g. murder, rape, slavery, etc.)? In other words, would it be a contradiction for one to specify that they subjectively desire only for a 'government' to exist that does not engage in such non-defensive violence (e.g. murder, rape, slavery, etc.)? If it's not a contradiction, then roughly speaking that is what I want. If it is a contradiction, then I can only say that I do not desire any kind of or amount of non-consensual non-defensive violence (e.g. murder, rape, slavery, etc.).

At least in terms of theoretical interactions between adult humans capable of consent, measured such that it includes the majority of currently living adult humans, I do not want there to be any non-consensual non-defensive violence (e.g. murder, rape, slavery, etc.). In short, we can say I adamantly oppose all non-consensual non-defensive violence.
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
marigold_23
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Re: What should be the primary purpose of a government

Post by marigold_23 »

I believe in representative government, as opposed to true democracy. That is I prefer having a professional government of specialists who have access to better information than what is available to the public, more time and interest to ponder issues than the average citizen. Thus they have a higher chance of coming to the correct solution to problems than the voters who elected them. Therefore to answer your question, I want my government to not blindly follow voters but give the best answer based on the best information.
LuckyR, Thank you for your response. I agree that government officials must be specialized and professional, as opposed to a pure democracy which is regardless of the voters qualifications to select their best representative (although perhaps pure democracy would be an ideal with the absolute provision of screening candidates for qualification and education of the populace)... However In my initial question, I asked "what should be the purpose of government?" I'm glad you told me what kind of government you would want but I'm actually equally interested in the hypothetical function of this government... in other words, for what sort of efficiency of functionality did you select it? What is this hypothetical institution's purpose? The answer to that question may seem obvious but I really am interested not just in the kind of government you would select but it's purpose (or function) which would be helpful in informing we why you have selected that kind of government as opposed to a different one. I hope that makes sense, please let me know if the question seems convoluted in any way
Hi, marigold_23,

If I am understanding correctly, you are asking what kind of government I subjectively desire to exist in a hypothetical future.

May I ask another follow-up question; As you use the word, does 'government' necessarily entail non-consensual non-defensive violence (e.g. murder, rape, slavery, etc.)? In other words, would it be a contradiction for one to specify that they subjectively desire only for a 'government' to exist that does not engage in such non-defensive violence (e.g. murder, rape, slavery, etc.)? If it's not a contradiction, then roughly speaking that is what I want. If it is a contradiction, then I can only say that I do not desire any kind of or amount of non-consensual non-defensive violence (e.g. murder, rape, slavery, etc.).

At least in terms of theoretical interactions between adult humans capable of consent, measured such that it includes the majority of currently living adult humans, I do not want there to be any non-consensual non-defensive violence (e.g. murder, rape, slavery, etc.). In short, we can say I adamantly oppose all non-consensual non-defensive violence.
Hey Scott, thanks for your response.
That's correct, I want to know what kind of government you want to exist in the future (or what kind of government you wish existed now which is rather the same consideration, implying a level of dissatisfaction with the current status). However, I should have reiterated that (even more importantly) I want to know what function(s) or purpose(s) this hypothetical government must serve in your view.... that is to say, why did you select that kind of government as opposed to another or none at all and what sort of efficacy does it serve?... or, another way to answer would be (for whoever responds) the function of resolving your cumulative dissatisfaction with the current status of society / government. In other words, to tell me why this hypothetical government is ideal in your view... I would also be satisfied with just the function(s) of your ideal government, as it would be perhaps wrong to expect anyone to have in mind the specific, ideal political structure to resolve all of their problems with the current status... particularly in your case, since (admittedly) I would be surprised by a social structure that doesn't regularly implement "non-consensual", "non-defensive" violence.

To answer your follow-up question, (to the best of my understanding) government is always a semi-permanent constitutional arrangement of some kind (written or spoken). As I understand it, government is, at minimum, any "societal" arrangement...even a family structure could be described this way... an arrangement or organization implies some internal restriction, as opposed to total freedom... in any relevant social structure, members are not absolutely free as we assume that they have a communal or hierarchical system which is reactive (with members reacting to one another) and limited within that scope...

Violence, as I understand it, is basically reduceable to "action on:"... or in this context: "action on a person by a person". All action is not by the receiver but by the perpetrator, and therefore (even if one requested, say, to be punched in the face) the act was either redefined to be an act of the receiver on him or herself (such that the past receiver committing the act is separated from the present receiver and redefined as the perpetrator over chronology) or we must admit that however it may seem the receiver consented for this to happen, it was nonetheless, like all action and all violence, out of his or her control upon the happening (outside of any consent), as the receiver is never the perpetrator at the same moment, and (therefore) must be one or the other in the moment of any relevant action between them. Intention of an act may be ascribed to a perpetrator, but never a receiver. If a receiver intends the act to happen, they become the perpetrator in the same moment, and this is contradictory. We must allow that reception of action is never fully comprehended or controlled, but is always a surprise to some extent and therefore also non consensual to that same extent.

However, as if I understand correctly, you want to increase cooperation, empathy, and decrease the opposite characteristics.

Realistically, I think you could try to reduce non consensual, non defensive violence but in a society with any freedom of interaction, you could not remove it completely.
As I see it you could envision a government that does not practice murder or rape. Depending on your definition of slavery (assuming their is a valid social contract, which is certainly rare), you could also envision a society without slavery though it would probably look like slavery from without, in the same way that an ant colony appears like slavery when one sees it's hierarchical structure. Though, if there is a valid provision that members can leave, no internal power dynamic is necessarily non consensual... I'd leave that to the one answering to work out. But from my view, you could theoretically have a government without these elements. I hope that answers your question.

Would you say an ideal government's "function" should be to reduce non consensual, non defensive violence?
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Re: What should be the primary purpose of a government

Post by LuckyR »

marigold_23 wrote: April 23rd, 2021, 1:40 pm
I believe in representative government, as opposed to true democracy. That is I prefer having a professional government of specialists who have access to better information than what is available to the public, more time and interest to ponder issues than the average citizen. Thus they have a higher chance of coming to the correct solution to problems than the voters who elected them. Therefore to answer your question, I want my government to not blindly follow voters but give the best answer based on the best information.
LuckyR, Thank you for your response. I agree that government officials must be specialized and professional, as opposed to a pure democracy which is regardless of the voters qualifications to select their best representative (although perhaps pure democracy would be an ideal with the absolute provision of screening candidates for qualification and education of the populace)... However In my initial question, I asked "what should be the purpose of government?" I'm glad you told me what kind of government you would want but I'm actually equally interested in the hypothetical function of this government... in other words, for what sort of efficiency of functionality did you select it? What is this hypothetical institution's purpose? The answer to that question may seem obvious but I really am interested not just in the kind of government you would select but it's purpose (or function) which would be helpful in informing we why you have selected that kind of government as opposed to a different one. I hope that makes sense, please let me know if the question seems convoluted in any way
I think I understand what you're asking. Simple really, the purpose of government is to provide services that are important but not profitable (profitable services will be provided by corporations). A good example is the difference between the post office and FedEx. The post office provides service to every address in the country, no matter how rural and unprofitable it is. FedEx goes to large markets. Similarly, the highway system provided great value (wealth), but was too unwieldy and had too much upfront cost to be a money making enterprise for decades. Thus it was built by the government. Same with the education of children of nonwealthy parents.
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Re: What should be the primary purpose of a government

Post by marigold_23 »

I think I understand what you're asking. Simple really, the purpose of government is to provide services that are important but not profitable (profitable services will be provided by corporations). A good example is the difference between the post office and FedEx. The post office provides service to every address in the country, no matter how rural and unprofitable it is. FedEx goes to large markets. Similarly, the highway system provided great value (wealth), but was too unwieldy and had too much upfront cost to be a money making enterprise for decades. Thus it was built by the government. Same with the education of children of nonwealthy parents.
Hey Lucky_R,
Thanks for the clarification.
I see, and what would you say qualifies a service as important for a society? For instance, must any "important" service by a government contribute in some way to the longevity of the society over which it presides? Or should we conclude that importance relative to society is not determined by the greater longevity of the society as a result of the service but instead, say, the general reduction of discontent(?)

If you agree with the former case, would you also agree that any government under which a society is most likely to persist longest is to that extent preferable to (and more successful than) any government under which the society would not be expected to persist as long (indicating importance is directly related to the science of social sustainability)

If you think the importance of any service is determined by the reduction of discontent (or greater happiness) that results from it, then may I also ask, at what point should the greatest reduction of discontent (or the greatest happiness) for a society not also correlate to the greatest longevity? Would a society ever, in sound judgement, prefer self destruction to hardship and discontent?

Or do you disagree with both of these qualifications for importance?
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Re: What should be the primary purpose of a government

Post by Sculptor1 »

marigold_23 wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 10:42 am I'd like to think that whatever political "camp" or party a person falls into is eventually determined by one's answer to this question. Is government meant simply to execute the majority will of the populace? ...
I'd love to hear anyone's opinion here.
The issuing and control of currency.

Pay out such currency to achieve goals which:

protect and preserve the people, legally and militarily;
provide health services to the people;
provide education services to allow each citizens to maximise their educational potential;
provide economic regulations and systems of justice that will:
maintain safe working conditios, fair wages, allow workers representation, and prevent monopolies.
provide regulations and sanctions for various products to achieve safe products - medicines, roads, pesticides etc...

To gather such taxes as will control the money supply and give currency value.

That sort of thing...
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Re: What should be the primary purpose of a government

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LuckyR wrote: April 24th, 2021, 3:34 am Simple really, the purpose of government is to provide services that are important but not profitable (profitable services will be provided by corporations).

Oh? I thought one purpose of government is to provide services that are best, and most efficiently, delivered at a nationwide level. I didn't realise that profitability was part of the matter.
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Re: What should be the primary purpose of a government

Post by Scott »

Pattern-chaser wrote: April 24th, 2021, 12:45 pm
LuckyR wrote: April 24th, 2021, 3:34 am Simple really, the purpose of government is to provide services that are important but not profitable (profitable services will be provided by corporations).

Oh? I thought one purpose of government is to provide services that are best, and most efficiently, delivered at a nationwide level. I didn't realise that profitability was part of the matter.
The purpose of government is clearly to make the rich richer, keep the powerful powerful, and maintain or exacerbate a classist status quo using non-defensive violence. History does not just merely contain countless examples, but rather that's pretty much all that political history is: the same general story over and over and over again.

But the OP is not asking what the purpose of government is.
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
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Re: What should be the primary purpose of a government

Post by LuckyR »

marigold_23 wrote: April 24th, 2021, 9:04 am
I think I understand what you're asking. Simple really, the purpose of government is to provide services that are important but not profitable (profitable services will be provided by corporations). A good example is the difference between the post office and FedEx. The post office provides service to every address in the country, no matter how rural and unprofitable it is. FedEx goes to large markets. Similarly, the highway system provided great value (wealth), but was too unwieldy and had too much upfront cost to be a money making enterprise for decades. Thus it was built by the government. Same with the education of children of nonwealthy parents.
Hey Lucky_R,
Thanks for the clarification.
I see, and what would you say qualifies a service as important for a society? For instance, must any "important" service by a government contribute in some way to the longevity of the society over which it presides? Or should we conclude that importance relative to society is not determined by the greater longevity of the society as a result of the service but instead, say, the general reduction of discontent(?)

If you agree with the former case, would you also agree that any government under which a society is most likely to persist longest is to that extent preferable to (and more successful than) any government under which the society would not be expected to persist as long (indicating importance is directly related to the science of social sustainability)

If you think the importance of any service is determined by the reduction of discontent (or greater happiness) that results from it, then may I also ask, at what point should the greatest reduction of discontent (or the greatest happiness) for a society not also correlate to the greatest longevity? Would a society ever, in sound judgement, prefer self destruction to hardship and discontent?

Or do you disagree with both of these qualifications for importance?
Are you referring to Utopia or here on planet Earth?
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: What should be the primary purpose of a government

Post by LuckyR »

Pattern-chaser wrote: April 24th, 2021, 12:45 pm
LuckyR wrote: April 24th, 2021, 3:34 am Simple really, the purpose of government is to provide services that are important but not profitable (profitable services will be provided by corporations).

Oh? I thought one purpose of government is to provide services that are best, and most efficiently, delivered at a nationwide level. I didn't realise that profitability was part of the matter.
Well, as you know many, if not most governmental services are delivered at the local level. In addition, as I mentioned unprofitability (not profitability) is part of the equation. That's why Disneyland is a corporation and Yosemite is a National Park.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: What should be the primary purpose of a government

Post by LuckyR »

Scott wrote: April 24th, 2021, 2:06 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: April 24th, 2021, 12:45 pm
LuckyR wrote: April 24th, 2021, 3:34 am Simple really, the purpose of government is to provide services that are important but not profitable (profitable services will be provided by corporations).

Oh? I thought one purpose of government is to provide services that are best, and most efficiently, delivered at a nationwide level. I didn't realise that profitability was part of the matter.
The purpose of government is clearly to make the rich richer, keep the powerful powerful, and maintain or exacerbate a classist status quo using non-defensive violence. History does not just merely contain countless examples, but rather that's pretty much all that political history is: the same general story over and over and over again.

But the OP is not asking what the purpose of government is.
Actually "government" is just a label to describe the ruling structure of large groups. In order to avoid government, you'd have to either exist in small groups, without economies of scale, or try to cobble together a large, anarchic group. I'm not personally interested in either. You?
"As usual... it depends."
marigold_23
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Re: What should be the primary purpose of a government

Post by marigold_23 »

LuckyR wrote: April 25th, 2021, 3:08 am
marigold_23 wrote: April 24th, 2021, 9:04 am
I think I understand what you're asking. Simple really, the purpose of government is to provide services that are important but not profitable (profitable services will be provided by corporations). A good example is the difference between the post office and FedEx. The post office provides service to every address in the country, no matter how rural and unprofitable it is. FedEx goes to large markets. Similarly, the highway system provided great value (wealth), but was too unwieldy and had too much upfront cost to be a money making enterprise for decades. Thus it was built by the government. Same with the education of children of nonwealthy parents.
Hey Lucky_R,
Thanks for the clarification.
I see, and what would you say qualifies a service as important for a society? For instance, must any "important" service by a government contribute in some way to the longevity of the society over which it presides? Or should we conclude that importance relative to society is not determined by the greater longevity of the society as a result of the service but instead, say, the general reduction of discontent(?)

If you agree with the former case, would you also agree that any government under which a society is most likely to persist longest is to that extent preferable to (and more successful than) any government under which the society would not be expected to persist as long (indicating importance is directly related to the science of social sustainability)

If you think the importance of any service is determined by the reduction of discontent (or greater happiness) that results from it, then may I also ask, at what point should the greatest reduction of discontent (or the greatest happiness) for a society not also correlate to the greatest longevity? Would a society ever, in sound judgement, prefer self destruction to hardship and discontent?

Or do you disagree with both of these qualifications for importance?
Are you referring to Utopia or here on planet Earth?

I'm not referring to a utopia. I am referring to your subjective ideal government. As I understand it, "Utopia" must refer to a perfect society and is also only ever considered as fictional for that reason...it is only ever useful as a model, but usually it oversimplifies problems and sets unrealistic expectations...perfection is rarely achieved anywhere, much less in such a complex organization as a human society...
My question is hypothetical in that I'm asking what "should" be the primary purpose of government, but I'm only wishing to know why you would think any issue would in the first place qualify as an important issue such that it would warrant the attention of an ideal government in your view.
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