"A fish rots from the top down" - exemplary function of the government

Have philosophical discussions about politics, law, and government.
Featured Article: Definition of Freedom - What Freedom Means to Me
Post Reply
User avatar
psyreporter
Posts: 866
Joined: August 15th, 2019, 7:42 pm
Contact:

"A fish rots from the top down" - exemplary function of the government

Post by psyreporter »

In Russia there is a saying "A fish rots from the top down". It means that when the government is corrupt, people become corrupt.

In America, there is an epidemic of mass shootings.

(2021) Mass Shootings Are Our New Epidemic
https://thebostonsun.com/2021/04/22/mas ... -epidemic/

A recent FBI study has shown that most perpetrators of mass shootings have no mental health problems. The perpetrators therefore apparently act with a motive. What could that motive be?

(2018) FBI Study: Most Mass Shooters Are Not Mentally Ill
https://www.voanews.com/usa/fbi-study-m ... ntally-ill

FBI profiler Mary Ellen O'Toole mentioned the following:

O'Toole says that most people with mental health problems are nonviolent, and furthermore, that mass shootings require planning and foresight. Perpetrators, she said, "need to think with a degree of clarity." My experience is that these are individuals. are those that, if there is a mental health problem, can still function very strategically, and in a very cold-blooded and heartless way. Mental health is not the problem."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/former-fbi ... shootings/

A study from Oxford University published in the Journal of the American Medical Association (2009) showed that the risk of violence in patients with schizophrenia is almost the same compared to the general population. Only in the case of drug and alcohol abuse is the risk of violent crime 1.6x higher compared to the general population.

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2009-05-20-sm ... e-involved

Organizations such as 9/11 Truth, Scientists for Truth, Firemen for Truth, Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth, Scholars for Truth and Justice for 9/11 can be taken as an indication that the idea that the terrorist attack on 9 September 2001 was performed by the government, should be taken seriously.

I recently asked the following questions to an American politician:
With regard the truth about the 9/11 attack. Would it be possible to share your motive to be involved?

I became a political activist in the wake of watching the flim JFK and doing research on the CIA. I was outraged and felt I should do something to challenge a policy which tortures, kills, and terrorizes people.

Would it be possible to describe the favorable outcome of your work?

Just raising consciousness and awareness. At this point, hopefully more people will not buy all the propaganda deluging us on Covid19. If you were at our website, you will see that we did include a talk and film on Covid19 in our last big annual event.

Our mission statement is- to seek and disseminate truths about the terrible crimes committed on September 11, 2001, exposing gaps and deceptions in the official story. Our goal is to inspire more eyewitness revelations, truthful media coverage, and a movement that will bring the responsible criminals to justice and eliminate governmental and corporate policies that enable criminal elements to commit such acts.”

In the case that the Government has performed the attack, what would (or should) it imply?

I think it implies that our government IS a terrorist organization. While, we are mere citizens; we should not condone or support its more murderous activities. Although, I think the guns are now being pointed at us.

Most people would like to put their head in the sand and are obediently going along with the manufactured reality blasted at them constantly by the media.

It sounds like you have crossed some line to be a target in the Great Game...
As can be seen, the government is referred to as a 'terrorist organization'. The politician was a Green Party candidate and is a director of an organization.

I responded with the following:
With regard the declaration of the Government as a 'terrorist organization'. While I understand that it is a natural aim or goal, from the perspective of results it may be best to have a clear vision of how it should be.

The idea that the Government is a terrorist organization may not lead to favorable results.

A saying in Russia is "a fish rots from the top down".

Such a wisdom translated to the general nature of people makes it logical that people are inclined to denounce information that promote the idea that the Government is a terrorist organization. People (in general) logically are ought (or feel inclined) to do what matters for maintaining a peaceful mind, which is essential for stability and progress.

Is 'truth' more important than what matters for prosperous existence of individual humans and people? Without the (terrorist) Government, what 'truth' would there be left to be important for them?

To remove the potential for contention, the higher purpose of people will need to be served.

I understand that from the perspective of investigative journalism, one simply intends to fulfill his/her job as good as possible and unmasking truth is in a sense the highest purpose, while one humbly withholds from telling people how they should live or think.

To achieve results with regard to 'prevention of terrorism', it may be important to discover the root of the fact that the Government performed terrorism.

I recently read the following:

There is an old saying in Washington that the cover-up is worse than the crime.

Conventional wisdom in Washington has it that the cover-up is always worse than the crime.


This appears to be evidence that a certain morality within the Government is likely to be possible. One then simply needs to find the root of the problem, which may provide insights for experts of how it can be ensured that the Government follows a righteous path.

Yours Sincerely,
Arjan
Is "truth" more important than a peaceful state of mind? If not, what does that mean with regard to (the potential for) morality in politics?

According to many parties, the 9/11 terrorist attack was carried out by the government. If people believe that deep in their hearts, then perhaps, on the basis of the cited Russian wisdom, they can be incited / motivated to perform terrorism.

What is your opinion on the origin of the epidemic of mass shootings and do you have an idea for a potential solution?
PsyReporter | “If life were to be good as it was, there would be no reason to exist.”
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 5904
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: "A fish rots from the top down" - exemplary function of the government

Post by LuckyR »

arjand wrote: April 26th, 2021, 7:31 am In Russia there is a saying "A fish rots from the top down". It means that when the government is corrupt, people become corrupt.

In America, there is an epidemic of mass shootings.

(2021) Mass Shootings Are Our New Epidemic
https://thebostonsun.com/2021/04/22/mas ... -epidemic/

A recent FBI study has shown that most perpetrators of mass shootings have no mental health problems. The perpetrators therefore apparently act with a motive. What could that motive be?

(2018) FBI Study: Most Mass Shooters Are Not Mentally Ill
https://www.voanews.com/usa/fbi-study-m ... ntally-ill

FBI profiler Mary Ellen O'Toole mentioned the following:

O'Toole says that most people with mental health problems are nonviolent, and furthermore, that mass shootings require planning and foresight. Perpetrators, she said, "need to think with a degree of clarity." My experience is that these are individuals. are those that, if there is a mental health problem, can still function very strategically, and in a very cold-blooded and heartless way. Mental health is not the problem."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/former-fbi ... shootings/

A study from Oxford University published in the Journal of the American Medical Association (2009) showed that the risk of violence in patients with schizophrenia is almost the same compared to the general population. Only in the case of drug and alcohol abuse is the risk of violent crime 1.6x higher compared to the general population.

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2009-05-20-sm ... e-involved

Organizations such as 9/11 Truth, Scientists for Truth, Firemen for Truth, Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth, Scholars for Truth and Justice for 9/11 can be taken as an indication that the idea that the terrorist attack on 9 September 2001 was performed by the government, should be taken seriously.

I recently asked the following questions to an American politician:
With regard the truth about the 9/11 attack. Would it be possible to share your motive to be involved?

I became a political activist in the wake of watching the flim JFK and doing research on the CIA. I was outraged and felt I should do something to challenge a policy which tortures, kills, and terrorizes people.

Would it be possible to describe the favorable outcome of your work?

Just raising consciousness and awareness. At this point, hopefully more people will not buy all the propaganda deluging us on Covid19. If you were at our website, you will see that we did include a talk and film on Covid19 in our last big annual event.

Our mission statement is- to seek and disseminate truths about the terrible crimes committed on September 11, 2001, exposing gaps and deceptions in the official story. Our goal is to inspire more eyewitness revelations, truthful media coverage, and a movement that will bring the responsible criminals to justice and eliminate governmental and corporate policies that enable criminal elements to commit such acts.”

In the case that the Government has performed the attack, what would (or should) it imply?

I think it implies that our government IS a terrorist organization. While, we are mere citizens; we should not condone or support its more murderous activities. Although, I think the guns are now being pointed at us.

Most people would like to put their head in the sand and are obediently going along with the manufactured reality blasted at them constantly by the media.

It sounds like you have crossed some line to be a target in the Great Game...
As can be seen, the government is referred to as a 'terrorist organization'. The politician was a Green Party candidate and is a director of an organization.

I responded with the following:
With regard the declaration of the Government as a 'terrorist organization'. While I understand that it is a natural aim or goal, from the perspective of results it may be best to have a clear vision of how it should be.

The idea that the Government is a terrorist organization may not lead to favorable results.

A saying in Russia is "a fish rots from the top down".

Such a wisdom translated to the general nature of people makes it logical that people are inclined to denounce information that promote the idea that the Government is a terrorist organization. People (in general) logically are ought (or feel inclined) to do what matters for maintaining a peaceful mind, which is essential for stability and progress.

Is 'truth' more important than what matters for prosperous existence of individual humans and people? Without the (terrorist) Government, what 'truth' would there be left to be important for them?

To remove the potential for contention, the higher purpose of people will need to be served.

I understand that from the perspective of investigative journalism, one simply intends to fulfill his/her job as good as possible and unmasking truth is in a sense the highest purpose, while one humbly withholds from telling people how they should live or think.

To achieve results with regard to 'prevention of terrorism', it may be important to discover the root of the fact that the Government performed terrorism.

I recently read the following:

There is an old saying in Washington that the cover-up is worse than the crime.

Conventional wisdom in Washington has it that the cover-up is always worse than the crime.


This appears to be evidence that a certain morality within the Government is likely to be possible. One then simply needs to find the root of the problem, which may provide insights for experts of how it can be ensured that the Government follows a righteous path.

Yours Sincerely,
Arjan
Is "truth" more important than a peaceful state of mind? If not, what does that mean with regard to (the potential for) morality in politics?

According to many parties, the 9/11 terrorist attack was carried out by the government. If people believe that deep in their hearts, then perhaps, on the basis of the cited Russian wisdom, they can be incited / motivated to perform terrorism.

What is your opinion on the origin of the epidemic of mass shootings and do you have an idea for a potential solution?
Several things. First, I completely agree about the violence risk of those with psychoses and mood disorders being near baseline. However the risk of violence among psychopaths and sociopaths is definitely higher than average, though some don't include personality disorders in the catch all phrase of mental illness.

The origin of mass shootings was the first one. Until the first one, folks who currently want to do suicide by cop, did their suicide in another way. After the first mass shooting, it became an option. Thus it can be argued that after the first mass shooting, the rest were essentially copycat crimes.

There is no way to change the number of mass shootings, but things like limiting magazine capacity can change their lethality. The only regulation that would lower the number would be a ban on media coverage of mass killings since the killers are seeking their 15 minutes of "fame", among many other things.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 4508
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: "A fish rots from the top down" - exemplary function of the government

Post by Sculptor1 »

I think we know something is wrong when gun deaths are at 20,000 per year, mass shootings are growing, and the response from some people is that "WE NEED MORE GUNS".
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Posts: 3099
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: "A fish rots from the top down" - exemplary function of the government

Post by Pattern-chaser »

arjand wrote: April 26th, 2021, 7:31 am What is your opinion on the origin of the epidemic of mass shootings and do you have an idea for a potential solution?

Their origin lies in too many guns owned by a dangerously violent people. The only solution I have to offer is to distribute more and better guns and ammunition to all Americans, then the rest of us close our borders, hard and solid, and wait....
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
Nick_A
Posts: 3223
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm

Re: "A fish rots from the top down" - exemplary function of the government

Post by Nick_A »

Arjan
What is your opinion on the origin of the epidemic of mass shootings and do you have an idea for a potential solution?
There is only one solution but humanity as whole is not ready for it. As of now the struggle is for prestige which is believed acquired by some by killing people. The more you kill, the greater your prestige.

However, Simone Weil describes what humanity is not ready for:
"The combination of these two facts — the longing in the depth of the heart for absolute good, and the power, though only latent, of directing attention and love to a reality beyond the world and of receiving good from it — constitutes a link which attaches every man without exception to that other reality.

Whoever recognizes that reality recognizes also that link. Because of it, he holds every human being without any exception as something sacred to which he is bound to show respect.

This is the only possible motive for universal respect towards all human beings. Whatever formulation of belief or disbelief a man may choose to make, if his heart inclines him to feel this respect, then he in fact also recognizes a reality other than this world's reality. Whoever in fact does not feel this respect is alien to that other reality also." ~ Simone Weil
Humanity as a whole doesn't recognize this reality in its conscience or the Source it is associated with so struggles for prestige and for some is verified by the ability to kill what it cannot understand.

So for the foreseeable future, just get yourself a gun and participate in the grand struggle for prestige
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Posts: 3099
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: "A fish rots from the top down" - exemplary function of the government

Post by Pattern-chaser »

LuckyR wrote: April 27th, 2021, 2:51 am There is no way to change the number of mass shootings...

Oh, there are many ways! But any one of them would leave Americans preferring to commit mass shootings themselves, rather than give such things their serious consideration. The problem is not that there is no way to solve the problem. The problem is that Americans cannot even consider possible alternatives to the status quo without being inspired to go out on a killing spree.
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 5904
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: "A fish rots from the top down" - exemplary function of the government

Post by LuckyR »

Pattern-chaser wrote: April 28th, 2021, 9:35 am
LuckyR wrote: April 27th, 2021, 2:51 am There is no way to change the number of mass shootings...

Oh, there are many ways! But any one of them would leave Americans preferring to commit mass shootings themselves, rather than give such things their serious consideration. The problem is not that there is no way to solve the problem. The problem is that Americans cannot even consider possible alternatives to the status quo without being inspired to go out on a killing spree.
No, it impossible to make such mass killings stop. The folks who do them are not normal people. They are either doing suicide by cop or have some extreme motivation to kill. The number of guns in the US right now is so high that no program to reduce the number will reduce the number low enough to make guns unobtainable to such a motivated person. Add to it that 3D printing will make guns available to anyone with a printer in a couple of years.

Lastly, since driving vehicles into crowds is usually more lethal than the typical mass shooting makes a mass killing future an unrealistic goal. Mitigation, not elimination, is the best path.
"As usual... it depends."
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Politics”

Upcoming Philosphy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

Living in Color

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Previous Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021