What went wrong with communism?

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mystery
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Re: What went wrong with communism?

Post by mystery »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 30th, 2021, 11:08 am
chewybrian wrote: June 29th, 2021, 7:42 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 29th, 2021, 10:48 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 28th, 2021, 10:37 am Not quite. I agree that this is how it is, but I'm not convinced that it is justified.
LuckyR wrote: June 29th, 2021, 2:30 am I am open to your ideas on what is a justified way of acknowledging the differences in hiring various positions and filling those open positions.
I wish I had some. I'm not happy with how it is, but I can't quite see a practical way to improve matters. Perhaps getting rid of Capitalism would help? 😏
What about universal basic income? Say you give everyone $20,000 a year, and they can go out and earn whatever they want on top of it. I doubt this would much affect the wages of CEO's. However, the supply curves of labor for jobs that pretty much anyone can do would change quite drastically, I would think. If the job was fun, a lot of people would be willing to do it for a fairly low wage. If the job was miserable, then a lot of people would be relieved of having to do it to survive. So, the labor pool of people willing to be janitors might pretty well dry up, and wages for these jobs could go way up to attract enough workers. However, a lot of people might still enjoy being lifeguards, and wages for lifeguards might go down.
Yes, that would surely take us in the direction of social justice. But my original musing was more specific: does the CEO's job really benefit the company more than the janitor's? They are both necessary functions, but is one worth more $£€ than the other? I can't see it....
The CEO can probably do the function of janitor, most likely the janitor can not do the CEO function. supply and demand dictate the price, it has already been well discussed.

If we remove the CEO can the company function; yes. Can it function well, the theory is no. Can anyone else in the company step in and cover for the CEO, the theory is no.

If we remove the janitor, can the company function; yes. Can it function well, the theory is no. Can anyone else in the company step in and cover for the janitor, the theory is yes.

It is about risk, higher risk is always worth more return. Not having a qualified CEO is a very high risk, no qualified janitor not much risk.

In some cases, specialized engineers and technicians get very high compensation because of the risk to the company. We will always try to have engineers cross-train so that we can control the salary and lower the risk.

Unions are all about consolidating risk so that the risk is enough to create leverage.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: What went wrong with communism?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 30th, 2021, 11:08 am My original musing was more specific: does the CEO's job really benefit the company more than the janitor's? They are both necessary functions, but is one worth more $£€ than the other? I can't see it....

mystery wrote: July 3rd, 2021, 3:54 am The CEO can probably do the function of janitor, most likely the janitor can not do the CEO function.
Is that so in RL, I wonder, or is it just a reflection of our perception (reflected in janitor's and CEO's wages) that a CEO is worth SO much more? And I also wonder about their contribution to the business, not how demanding their task(s) might be?


mystery wrote: July 3rd, 2021, 3:54 am Can anyone else in the company step in and cover for the CEO, the theory is no.
And yet maybe this, as above, is merely a reflection of an opinion that might even be the invention of ... CEOs?


mystery wrote: July 3rd, 2021, 3:54 am Can anyone else in the company step in and cover for the janitor, the theory is yes.
No-one can do a job unless they have the necessary skills and training. I think this applies to each and every job.


mystery wrote: July 3rd, 2021, 3:54 am Not having a qualified CEO is a very high risk, no qualified janitor not much risk.
I have assumed in this example that both CEO and janitor are jobs that are essential to the business. This being the case (?), your supposition here would seem to be untrue, or at least unjustified.


mystery wrote: July 3rd, 2021, 3:54 am Unions are all about consolidating risk so that the risk is enough to create leverage.
Some might say that unions are about protecting the rights of the employees who actually produce the product and thereby earn the money the business needs to make a profit.
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Neil Wallace
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Re: What went wrong with communism?

Post by Neil Wallace »

Pattern-chaser wrote: May 28th, 2021, 9:17 am
Belindi wrote: May 28th, 2021, 4:33 am What went wrong with communism that was supposed to distribute luxuries equally?
Steve3007 wrote: May 28th, 2021, 4:59 am Sounds like a cue for a new topic.

It does indeed, and here it is.



The topic is all in the title. What went wrong with communism? My answer is that nothing went wrong with communism. The fault, if there is any fault, is in humanity. Yes, we are social animals, and we live, group, and act together in social groups of all sizes, from families to nations. But we also want stuff for ourselves, maybe stuff that others don't or can't have. The streak of greediness in us is as strong as the urge to socialise, and that is what went wrong with communism: human greed.

Morally, communism is far superior to Capitalism, but communism asks us to behave atypically, while Capitalism panders to our greed and baser nature, and so is more successful.

That's my take; what's yours? What went wrong with communism?
One problem with Communism was the theory itself. Marx was very big on critique of the existing Capitalist system, rather vague on practical implementation of Socialism. It was never particularly clear how to do "Communist Stuff". Being extremely charitable - Lenin and those who followed
had to experiment, and as with most experiments the end result was often failure with catastrophic results.
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Re: What went wrong with communism?

Post by UniversalAlien »

Pattern-chaser wrote: May 28th, 2021, 12:13 pm
Steve3007 wrote: May 28th, 2021, 11:03 am But I guess others with more knowledge of the circumstances of particular nominally communist regimes, or probably just the USSR, will probably have more to say.
I was always confused about the USSR and China, in the latter half of the 20th century. They called themselves "communists", but that seemed to me to be propaganda of the worst kind. They looked to me, from the outside, and at some distance, like state dictatorships. Communism is (in theory!) about the community, a thoroughly social thing.

The second observation I like to make about communism is that it can only work at its best if the individual is nurtured, within the communist community. If the individual is stifled, we end up with something little different from an ant-nest or bee-hive. And, for all that ants and bees are social animals, we are social animals who operate (socially and otherwise) quite differently. Mindless following of the hive-queen's commands is not for us. The individual is secondary to the community, if only through force of numbers, but nevertheless is necessary for any successful human civilisation. It's all about compromise, and finding the right balance. IMO, of course.
Just started reading this post and before I go any further and just becuase it may have not been asked:

What kind of government/country is China today :?:

Communist, capitalist, hybrid synthetic :?:

Technically China is controlled by the Chinese Communist Party correct ?

And yet people are supposedly getting rich in China.

Has China found the magic formula for mixing Socialism and Capitalism that will work :?:

Will China end up dominating the economies of the World :?:
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: What went wrong with communism?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

I think spotlighting China might be a mistake. True, China has long claimed to be a communist country, but (as I said earlier) they more resembled a state dictatorship. Communism does not stand or fall on the example offered by China.

Also, there is a lot of anti-Chinese propaganda in the USA at the moment, and this seems to influence discussion. So let's just focus on communism and/or socialism, rather than devolve into discussion of one poor example or another?


P.S. I'm no political expert, but I don't think "mixing Socialism and Capitalism" is even possible. One is based around generosity (giving others what they need) and the other on personal greed. I can't see how these two can be mixed.
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