What went wrong with communism?

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Sculptor1
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Re: What went wrong with communism?

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LuckyR wrote: June 18th, 2021, 7:16 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: June 18th, 2021, 6:20 am
LuckyR wrote: June 18th, 2021, 1:39 am
Sculptor1 wrote: June 17th, 2021, 5:02 pm

Not sure about the phrase "at the mercy of", We are certainly at the mercy of A hadnful of media moguls who are not accountable to any political system. Leaders that seem to be in control, accountable to an electorate are definitley at the mercy of these men.
While you are correct that we are at the mercy of good leadership in any system, systems that go against natural tendancies are more dependant on rules to operate correctly. Competition and thus market forces go along with natural human psychology, cooperation and sharing don't.
Don't let them tell you that is is simply wrong.
Such is the myth of capitalism run by psychopaths for their own engrandisement.
Co-operation and sharing are not only key components of human psychology, but they are far more common and widespread, than conflict. Without cooperation and sharing we would still be hitting each other over the heads with tapir jawbones and be stuck on the savanna.
How do you think humans managed to live and evolve in Africa with the world's most vicious predators to colonise the entire world without cooperation and sharing?
Humans (and even chimpanzees) have fairness as a key part of their psychological worldview. Thus why individuals can accept getting less stuff if they work less. OTOH we don't deal with working more than everyone and receiving the average very well. In fact, such a system rewards doing as little work as possible.
What country are you from?
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Sculptor1
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Re: What went wrong with communism?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 19th, 2021, 7:44 am
LuckyR wrote: June 18th, 2021, 1:39 am While you are correct that we are at the mercy of good leadership in any system, systems that go against natural tendencies are more dependent on rules to operate correctly. Competition and thus market forces go along with natural human psychology, cooperation and sharing don't.
I wish this wasn't so, but it is. Capitalism is a human failing. We are naturally selfish and greedy. Altruism is difficult for us; true community-ism even more so, it seems.
No
Humans practically invented copoeration and sharing. Humans are naturally friendly and gregarious. When they lack friendship they can sink into depression. Altruism is easy. It takes hard ideology to knock that out of us.
Watch any child hand over their food to the pets in the house. Watch a mother sacrifice herself for her children and granparents give their final years to the next generation.
As I said to Lucky (above) ". Without cooperation and sharing we would still be hitting each other over the heads with tapir jawbones and be stuck on the savanna. How do you think humans managed to live and evolve in Africa with the world's most vicious predators to colonise the entire world without cooperation and sharing?"
Humans are characterised by teamwork.
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LuckyR
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Re: What went wrong with communism?

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: June 19th, 2021, 8:15 am
LuckyR wrote: June 18th, 2021, 7:16 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: June 18th, 2021, 6:20 am
LuckyR wrote: June 18th, 2021, 1:39 am

While you are correct that we are at the mercy of good leadership in any system, systems that go against natural tendancies are more dependant on rules to operate correctly. Competition and thus market forces go along with natural human psychology, cooperation and sharing don't.
Don't let them tell you that is is simply wrong.
Such is the myth of capitalism run by psychopaths for their own engrandisement.
Co-operation and sharing are not only key components of human psychology, but they are far more common and widespread, than conflict. Without cooperation and sharing we would still be hitting each other over the heads with tapir jawbones and be stuck on the savanna.
How do you think humans managed to live and evolve in Africa with the world's most vicious predators to colonise the entire world without cooperation and sharing?
Humans (and even chimpanzees) have fairness as a key part of their psychological worldview. Thus why individuals can accept getting less stuff if they work less. OTOH we don't deal with working more than everyone and receiving the average very well. In fact, such a system rewards doing as little work as possible.
What country are you from?
How tall are you?
"As usual... it depends."
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LuckyR
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Re: What went wrong with communism?

Post by LuckyR »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 19th, 2021, 7:44 am
LuckyR wrote: June 18th, 2021, 1:39 am While you are correct that we are at the mercy of good leadership in any system, systems that go against natural tendencies are more dependent on rules to operate correctly. Competition and thus market forces go along with natural human psychology, cooperation and sharing don't.
I wish this wasn't so, but it is. Capitalism is a human failing. We are naturally selfish and greedy. Altruism is difficult for us; true community-ism even more so, it seems.
Sculptor is correct that humans can cooperate, but he left out the part that most cooperation is against a foe or problem. So even cooperation is a form of selfishness and competition. In this case for a group instead of an individual.
"As usual... it depends."
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Sculptor1
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Re: What went wrong with communism?

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: June 19th, 2021, 7:09 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: June 19th, 2021, 8:15 am
LuckyR wrote: June 18th, 2021, 7:16 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: June 18th, 2021, 6:20 am
Don't let them tell you that is is simply wrong.
Such is the myth of capitalism run by psychopaths for their own engrandisement.
Co-operation and sharing are not only key components of human psychology, but they are far more common and widespread, than conflict. Without cooperation and sharing we would still be hitting each other over the heads with tapir jawbones and be stuck on the savanna.
How do you think humans managed to live and evolve in Africa with the world's most vicious predators to colonise the entire world without cooperation and sharing?
Humans (and even chimpanzees) have fairness as a key part of their psychological worldview. Thus why individuals can accept getting less stuff if they work less. OTOH we don't deal with working more than everyone and receiving the average very well. In fact, such a system rewards doing as little work as possible.
What country are you from?
How tall are you?
Why do you not think that relevant to such a discussion?
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: What went wrong with communism?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

LuckyR wrote: June 18th, 2021, 1:39 am While you are correct that we are at the mercy of good leadership in any system, systems that go against natural tendencies are more dependent on rules to operate correctly. Competition and thus market forces go along with natural human psychology, cooperation and sharing don't.
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 19th, 2021, 7:44 am I wish this wasn't so, but it is. Capitalism is a human failing. We are naturally selfish and greedy. Altruism is difficult for us; true community-ism even more so, it seems.
Sculptor1 wrote: June 19th, 2021, 2:58 pm No
Humans practically invented copoeration and sharing. Humans are naturally friendly and gregarious. When they lack friendship they can sink into depression. Altruism is easy. It takes hard ideology to knock that out of us.
Watch any child hand over their food to the pets in the house. Watch a mother sacrifice herself for her children and granparents give their final years to the next generation.
As I said to Lucky (above) ". Without cooperation and sharing we would still be hitting each other over the heads with tapir jawbones and be stuck on the savanna. How do you think humans managed to live and evolve in Africa with the world's most vicious predators to colonise the entire world without cooperation and sharing?"
Humans are characterised by teamwork.
LuckyR wrote: June 19th, 2021, 7:15 pm Sculptor is correct that humans can cooperate, but he left out the part that most cooperation is against a foe or problem. So even cooperation is a form of selfishness and competition. In this case for a group instead of an individual.
I don't mean to say that humans cannot or do not co-operate. We are a social species. We live and work together, and always have. But our greed and selfishness are just as much a part of 'typical' humanity as our co-operative urges, and the former tend to compromise the latter. This much, I think, is true.
Pattern-chaser

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Sculptor1
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Re: What went wrong with communism?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 20th, 2021, 7:36 am
LuckyR wrote: June 18th, 2021, 1:39 am While you are correct that we are at the mercy of good leadership in any system, systems that go against natural tendencies are more dependent on rules to operate correctly. Competition and thus market forces go along with natural human psychology, cooperation and sharing don't.
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 19th, 2021, 7:44 am I wish this wasn't so, but it is. Capitalism is a human failing. We are naturally selfish and greedy. Altruism is difficult for us; true community-ism even more so, it seems.
Sculptor1 wrote: June 19th, 2021, 2:58 pm No
Humans practically invented copoeration and sharing. Humans are naturally friendly and gregarious. When they lack friendship they can sink into depression. Altruism is easy. It takes hard ideology to knock that out of us.
Watch any child hand over their food to the pets in the house. Watch a mother sacrifice herself for her children and granparents give their final years to the next generation.
As I said to Lucky (above) ". Without cooperation and sharing we would still be hitting each other over the heads with tapir jawbones and be stuck on the savanna. How do you think humans managed to live and evolve in Africa with the world's most vicious predators to colonise the entire world without cooperation and sharing?"
Humans are characterised by teamwork.
LuckyR wrote: June 19th, 2021, 7:15 pm Sculptor is correct that humans can cooperate, but he left out the part that most cooperation is against a foe or problem. So even cooperation is a form of selfishness and competition. In this case for a group instead of an individual.
I don't mean to say that humans cannot or do not co-operate. We are a social species. We live and work together, and always have. But our greed and selfishness are just as much a part of 'typical' humanity as our co-operative urges, and the former tend to compromise the latter. This much, I think, is true.
The greedy predators like to spread the myth that greed and predation are normal and inevitable.
That is the basis of capitalism. Such psychopathy is in the minority. But even predating psychopaths have to subvert and mobilise the human tendancy to co-operate. How do you think Hitler managed. Certainly not alone.
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Re: What went wrong with communism?

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: June 20th, 2021, 6:41 am
LuckyR wrote: June 19th, 2021, 7:09 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: June 19th, 2021, 8:15 am
LuckyR wrote: June 18th, 2021, 7:16 pm

Humans (and even chimpanzees) have fairness as a key part of their psychological worldview. Thus why individuals can accept getting less stuff if they work less. OTOH we don't deal with working more than everyone and receiving the average very well. In fact, such a system rewards doing as little work as possible.
What country are you from?
How tall are you?
Why do you not think that relevant to such a discussion?
Because folks from any country can understand basic human psychological tendancies.
"As usual... it depends."
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LuckyR
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Re: What went wrong with communism?

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: June 20th, 2021, 9:34 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 20th, 2021, 7:36 am
LuckyR wrote: June 18th, 2021, 1:39 am While you are correct that we are at the mercy of good leadership in any system, systems that go against natural tendencies are more dependent on rules to operate correctly. Competition and thus market forces go along with natural human psychology, cooperation and sharing don't.
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 19th, 2021, 7:44 am I wish this wasn't so, but it is. Capitalism is a human failing. We are naturally selfish and greedy. Altruism is difficult for us; true community-ism even more so, it seems.
Sculptor1 wrote: June 19th, 2021, 2:58 pm No
Humans practically invented copoeration and sharing. Humans are naturally friendly and gregarious. When they lack friendship they can sink into depression. Altruism is easy. It takes hard ideology to knock that out of us.
Watch any child hand over their food to the pets in the house. Watch a mother sacrifice herself for her children and granparents give their final years to the next generation.
As I said to Lucky (above) ". Without cooperation and sharing we would still be hitting each other over the heads with tapir jawbones and be stuck on the savanna. How do you think humans managed to live and evolve in Africa with the world's most vicious predators to colonise the entire world without cooperation and sharing?"
Humans are characterised by teamwork.
LuckyR wrote: June 19th, 2021, 7:15 pm Sculptor is correct that humans can cooperate, but he left out the part that most cooperation is against a foe or problem. So even cooperation is a form of selfishness and competition. In this case for a group instead of an individual.
I don't mean to say that humans cannot or do not co-operate. We are a social species. We live and work together, and always have. But our greed and selfishness are just as much a part of 'typical' humanity as our co-operative urges, and the former tend to compromise the latter. This much, I think, is true.
The greedy predators like to spread the myth that greed and predation are normal and inevitable.
That is the basis of capitalism. Such psychopathy is in the minority. But even predating psychopaths have to subvert and mobilise the human tendancy to co-operate. How do you think Hitler managed. Certainly not alone.
Capitalism is much more than Gordon Gecko. In a market economy folks have the freedom to work less and earn less or work more, take risks and earn more.

Do you agree that in a Communistic system everyone gets average compensation, regardless? That sort of system rewards folks who produce less and punishes those who want to work more. 40% of USSR workers took second jobs to add to their compensation. A significant subset of workers want to be rewarded more for working more. They aren't satisfied with average.
"As usual... it depends."
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Sculptor1
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Re: What went wrong with communism?

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: June 21st, 2021, 2:07 am
Sculptor1 wrote: June 20th, 2021, 6:41 am
LuckyR wrote: June 19th, 2021, 7:09 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: June 19th, 2021, 8:15 am

What country are you from?
How tall are you?
Why do you not think that relevant to such a discussion?
Because folks from any country can understand basic human psychological tendancies.
But you are expressing very localised endemic assumptions from a very narrowly defined parochial social environment.
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Sculptor1
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Re: What went wrong with communism?

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: June 21st, 2021, 2:26 am
Sculptor1 wrote: June 20th, 2021, 9:34 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 20th, 2021, 7:36 am
LuckyR wrote: June 18th, 2021, 1:39 am While you are correct that we are at the mercy of good leadership in any system, systems that go against natural tendencies are more dependent on rules to operate correctly. Competition and thus market forces go along with natural human psychology, cooperation and sharing don't.
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 19th, 2021, 7:44 am I wish this wasn't so, but it is. Capitalism is a human failing. We are naturally selfish and greedy. Altruism is difficult for us; true community-ism even more so, it seems.
Sculptor1 wrote: June 19th, 2021, 2:58 pm No
Humans practically invented copoeration and sharing. Humans are naturally friendly and gregarious. When they lack friendship they can sink into depression. Altruism is easy. It takes hard ideology to knock that out of us.
Watch any child hand over their food to the pets in the house. Watch a mother sacrifice herself for her children and granparents give their final years to the next generation.
As I said to Lucky (above) ". Without cooperation and sharing we would still be hitting each other over the heads with tapir jawbones and be stuck on the savanna. How do you think humans managed to live and evolve in Africa with the world's most vicious predators to colonise the entire world without cooperation and sharing?"
Humans are characterised by teamwork.
LuckyR wrote: June 19th, 2021, 7:15 pm Sculptor is correct that humans can cooperate, but he left out the part that most cooperation is against a foe or problem. So even cooperation is a form of selfishness and competition. In this case for a group instead of an individual.
I don't mean to say that humans cannot or do not co-operate. We are a social species. We live and work together, and always have. But our greed and selfishness are just as much a part of 'typical' humanity as our co-operative urges, and the former tend to compromise the latter. This much, I think, is true.
The greedy predators like to spread the myth that greed and predation are normal and inevitable.
That is the basis of capitalism. Such psychopathy is in the minority. But even predating psychopaths have to subvert and mobilise the human tendancy to co-operate. How do you think Hitler managed. Certainly not alone.
Capitalism is much more than Gordon Gecko. In a market economy folks have the freedom to work less and earn less or work more, take risks and earn more.

Do you agree that in a Communistic system everyone gets average compensation, regardless? That sort of system rewards folks who produce less and punishes those who want to work more. 40% of USSR workers took second jobs to add to their compensation. A significant subset of workers want to be rewarded more for working more. They aren't satisfied with average.
Please refer to my previous post to you regarding praochialism.
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Re: What went wrong with communism?

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Sculptor1 wrote: June 20th, 2021, 9:34 am The greedy predators like to spread the myth that greed and predation are normal and inevitable.
That is the basis of capitalism. Such psychopathy is in the minority. But even predating psychopaths have to subvert and mobilise the human tendancy to co-operate. How do you think Hitler managed. Certainly not alone.
Our history - even back to pre-history, and beyond - seems to confirm the dominance of our less social tendencies, but also the strong presence of our social tendencies. This predates capitalism, and maybe even psychopathy too?
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Re: What went wrong with communism?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: June 21st, 2021, 7:00 am
Sculptor1 wrote: June 20th, 2021, 9:34 am The greedy predators like to spread the myth that greed and predation are normal and inevitable.
That is the basis of capitalism. Such psychopathy is in the minority. But even predating psychopaths have to subvert and mobilise the human tendancy to co-operate. How do you think Hitler managed. Certainly not alone.
Our history - even back to pre-history, and beyond - seems to confirm the dominance of our less social tendencies, but also the strong presence of our social tendencies. This predates capitalism, and maybe even psychopathy too?
"less social" - this is a bit like how long is a piece of string.
My point is, as I made it above is that we'd never have been able to jump out of the trees and colonise the entire world, like no other animals have ever done, without out "social skills".
All this was done without heirarchical restrictions or coercions, since the colonisation of the world was achived in the pre-civilisaed period.
Any examination of the anthroplogy of non-civilised societies show that all rely on co-operations and sharing,
You seem to be basing your view point of social interactions on your personal direct experience which is all about a massively stratified society where specialisms and heirarchies have mobilised technologies and ideologies of power. And until very recently knowledge and access to it have been the preserve of certain classes of priviledged social groups within society.
Yet the world was colonised with groups of humans with mobile subsistence strategies in which specialisms were rare and revered. In such small groups negative social behavioiurs are neither productive nor tolerated. And the storage and hoarding of foods impossible, making sharing normative.
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Re: What went wrong with communism?

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Sculptor1 wrote: June 21st, 2021, 1:14 pm You seem to be basing your view point of social interactions on your personal direct experience...
<gulp> I am? I thought I was simply clarifying my view that social and anti-social tendencies can both be clearly seen and examined in our historical record.
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Re: What went wrong with communism?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: June 22nd, 2021, 6:55 am
Sculptor1 wrote: June 21st, 2021, 1:14 pm You seem to be basing your view point of social interactions on your personal direct experience...
<gulp> I am? I thought I was simply clarifying my view that social and anti-social tendencies can both be clearly seen and examined in our historical record.
No, you are claiming that negative social tendancies are dominant. I was challenging that. At the moment the world is in the grip of greed. Although we are richer as a society there is more poverty. This high tide of ugliness is due in part to the march of the technology of money accelerating away from social awareness so that people can get rich with no understanding of their impact on others, and they are protected from the truth by various ideologies which promote views that help othering the poor. The simple fact of that machanisms of distancing exist implies alone that humans are potentially better than they behave.
If you, and others want to claim what is natural to humanity you have to take longer term and wider view point. For 90% of human history there was no means to store wealth and other resources. Money of any kind was not not availiable to most humans.
WHere other exchange items are known before money athropologists have enitre sub-disciplies to try to understand exhange mechanisms such ad gifting and reciprocity.
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