ethnic democracy?What you think?

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kordofany
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ethnic democracy?What you think?

Post by kordofany »

New Democracy ________________

▪️After the death of ideology and party institutions;
▪️Transition to
ethnic democracy.
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Classical ideologies can no longer add anything new, and therefore political parties appear to be largely slapstick. Ethnic alliances look directly - and pragmatically - in the interest of the ethnic group - and with a direct instrumental mind. People do not have a great awareness of philosophies and grand narratives, but are always interested in direct benefits. This is the speech of ethnic formations. In addition, The moral ties in ethnic alliances are strong. We cannot compare the strength of a tribe leader to a party leader.
Party institutions are industrial, ethnic institutions are natural and belong to the innate origin of man, so they are more firmly established even on a historical level.
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Steve3007
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Re: ethnic democracy?What you think?

Post by Steve3007 »

So, are you suggesting that for the purposes of voting in governments, we could divide along ethnic lines rather than the current national lines? If so, I guess you're suggesting a form of ethnic cleansing? i.e. separating people into individually governed ethnic groups. Obviously there are various reasons why ideas like that have had a bit of a bad press in the past, but for starters: who decides which ethnic group each of us is a member of?
kordofany
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Re: ethnic democracy?What you think?

Post by kordofany »

Steve3007 wrote: September 27th, 2021, 8:30 am So, are you suggesting that for the purposes of voting in governments, we could divide along ethnic lines rather than the current national lines? If so, I guess you're suggesting a form of ethnic cleansing? i.e. separating people into individually governed ethnic groups. Obviously there are various reasons why ideas like that have had a bit of a bad press in the past, but for starters: who decides which ethnic group each of us is a member of?
I don't know what your country is. But I'm talking from a different angle related to Africa and many countries in particular, which suffer because the classical democracy can no longer convince them of many possibilities, so you will notice that the developing countries are experiencing ethnic conflicts. From here we must transform ethnic conflicts into a positive democratic form. As for the question: It is you who determines your ethnicity. But if a crime is committed, even in America, the police do a racial profiling. White Black Latin Asian..etc.
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Steve3007
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Re: ethnic democracy?What you think?

Post by Steve3007 »

kordofany wrote:From here we must transform ethnic conflicts into a positive democratic form.
How? I still don't know what you're proposing. I asked if you were proposing voting along ethnic lines. I'm still not sure what the answer to that question is.
As for the question: It is you who determines your ethnicity.
So if we were proposing voting along ethnic lines, would that mean we could choose the society of which we are a member for the purposes of voting and government?
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Re: ethnic democracy?What you think?

Post by kordofany »

Steve3007 wrote: September 27th, 2021, 10:07 am
kordofany wrote:From here we must transform ethnic conflicts into a positive democratic form.
How? I still don't know what you're proposing. I asked if you were proposing voting along ethnic lines. I'm still not sure what the answer to that question is.
As for the question: It is you who determines your ethnicity.
So if we were proposing voting along ethnic lines, would that mean we could choose the society of which we are a member for the purposes of voting and government?
Look at the matter from its two main components, first: the failure of political parties to attract the attention of people in developing countries because the philosophies themselves have become elitist, and unconvincing. A man in the woods will not understand what Marx wants to say, nor will he understand what Adam Smith means. Therefore, he belongs to those who defend their basic needs through their tribal leader. It has become ridiculous to say that we are Marxists or anarchists or even liberals..isn't it.
on the other hand; The traditional democracy in the West is a command democracy: who controls and directs it, it doesn't matter. But the important thing is that it is not applicable to other peoples, fragile peoples, and democracy can make the state without red lines. And subject to external interference and then shredded.
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kordofany
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Re: ethnic democracy?What you think?

Post by kordofany »

Steve3007 wrote: September 27th, 2021, 10:07 am
kordofany wrote:From here we must transform ethnic conflicts into a positive democratic form.
How? I still don't know what you're proposing. I asked if you were proposing voting along ethnic lines. I'm still not sure what the answer to that question is.
As for the question: It is you who determines your ethnicity.
So if we were proposing voting along ethnic lines, would that mean we could choose the society of which we are a member for the purposes of voting and government?

In fact, ethnic democracy is being implemented, and the clearest example of this is Iraq after its destruction by America. Likewise, in other countries, reconciliations were used on the basis of granting each ethnic bloc a share in wealth and power, such as Sudan.
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Steve3007
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Re: ethnic democracy?What you think?

Post by Steve3007 »

OK. If you're saying that it's counterproductive to try to install western democracy in other cultures, without consideration for those cultures, I agree. If you're talking about the virtues of localism, in the sense that people need to have leaders from their own cultures to whom they can relate, rather than leaders who seem to speak in alien terms about principles that were invented by alien dead men (Marx, Adam Smith, etc) I take your point.
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Re: ethnic democracy?What you think?

Post by kordofany »

kordofany wrote: September 27th, 2021, 10:38 am
Steve3007 wrote: September 27th, 2021, 10:07 am
kordofany wrote:From here we must transform ethnic conflicts into a positive democratic form.
How? I still don't know what you're proposing. I asked if you were proposing voting along ethnic lines. I'm still not sure what the answer to that question is.
As for the question: It is you who determines your ethnicity.
So if we were proposing voting along ethnic lines, would that mean we could choose the society of which we are a member for the purposes of voting and government?

In fact, ethnic democracy is being implemented, and the clearest example of this is Iraq after its destruction by America. Likewise, in other countries, reconciliations were used on the basis of granting each ethnic bloc a share in wealth and power, such as Sudan.
however; Ethnic democracy does not mean that it is applicable anywhere, just as Western democracy is not applicable everywhere.
But it also needs the availability of geographic elements, that is, that the ethnicities are confined within specific regional blocs, and this is the majority of the peoples of Africa.
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kordofany
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Re: ethnic democracy?What you think?

Post by kordofany »

Steve3007 wrote: September 27th, 2021, 10:39 am OK. If you're saying that it's counterproductive to try to install western democracy in other cultures, without consideration for those cultures, I agree. If you're talking about the virtues of localism, in the sense that people need to have leaders from their own cultures to whom they can relate, rather than leaders who seem to speak in alien terms about principles that were invented by alien dead men (Marx, Adam Smith, etc) I take your point.
I say this indeed, because there is a transformation of democracy from a relativist concept to a dogmatic ideology.
It is presented as a new religion that rejects the existence of other new concepts.
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kordofany
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Re: ethnic democracy?What you think?

Post by kordofany »

If the United Nations Charter permits the self-determination of ethnic blocs, then a fortiori, states can be composed of ethnicities, not parties, as is the case in Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Arabian Peninsula.
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Steve3007
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Re: ethnic democracy?What you think?

Post by Steve3007 »

kordofany wrote:I say this indeed, because there is a transformation of democracy from a relativist concept to a dogmatic ideology.
It is presented as a new religion that rejects the existence of other new concepts.
Yeah, but you can see why, can't you? They'd say: "Democracy is just about the people having a say over how they're ruled. It is, by definition, the opposite of imposing something on people. So what's not to like?"

But, as I think we agree, what they fail to understand is that even if it is that, it's not enough to go marching into another people's country lecturing them about it. If democracy, in whatever form suits the local conditions, is a good thing, then the people need to discover that for themselves. They needs to own it.
kordofany
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Re: ethnic democracy?What you think?

Post by kordofany »

Steve3007 wrote: September 27th, 2021, 11:00 am
kordofany wrote:I say this indeed, because there is a transformation of democracy from a relativist concept to a dogmatic ideology.
It is presented as a new religion that rejects the existence of other new concepts.
Yeah, but you can see why, can't you? They'd say: "Democracy is just about the people having a say over how they're ruled. It is, by definition, the opposite of imposing something on people. So what's not to like?"

But, as I think we agree, what they fail to understand is that even if it is that, it's not enough to go marching into another people's country lecturing them about it. If democracy, in whatever form suits the local conditions, is a good thing, then the people need to discover that for themselves. They needs to own it.
Yes; I think that democracy should be subject to criticism because it has elements that are too idealistic, and until then; Going back to the origins of human history will give us more realistic forms, with a few trimmings.
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Steve3007
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Re: ethnic democracy?What you think?

Post by Steve3007 »

kordofany wrote:Yes; I think that democracy should be subject to criticism because it has elements that are too idealistic, and until then; Going back to the origins of human history will give us more realistic forms, with a few trimmings.
Mmmm. Back to the start of human history seems a tad OTT. We'd be literally re-inventing the wheel.
kordofany
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Re: ethnic democracy?What you think?

Post by kordofany »

Steve3007 wrote: September 27th, 2021, 11:29 am
kordofany wrote:Yes; I think that democracy should be subject to criticism because it has elements that are too idealistic, and until then; Going back to the origins of human history will give us more realistic forms, with a few trimmings.
Mmmm. Back to the start of human history seems a tad OTT. We'd be literally re-inventing the wheel.
Language is understood ontologically, not literally.
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