Democracy vs. Freedom?

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complimentarymatters
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Democracy vs. Freedom?

Post by complimentarymatters »

Which is more important--democracy or freedom?

Many people say democracy is good, but it means that the majority controls the minority. How can democracy be good if it means that the minority lose their freedom?
Dewey
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Democracy vs. Freedom

Post by Dewey »

"Which is more important -- democracy or freedom?"

I'd give the nod to democracy, defined in its root sense as the rule of the people, or the government created by election in which every adult citizen can vote. I'd prefer to live in a democracy where at least I have voting rights than in a governmentless anarchy where, you might say, I have unlimited rights but no protection. However do we really need to concern ourselves with the relative importance of democracy and freedom? We need both. The importance is in the balance between them.


"How can democracy be good if it means that the minority lose their freedom?"

I'd hate to go back to pre-democratic times. Individuals then had no power, no autonomy whatsoever. Democracy is good -- so long as it is properly regulated. To regulate our democracy and ensure equal rights we have balanced it with the constitution, the bill of rights, the rule of law, the separation of powers, and the protection of liberties of speech, assembly, religion, and property.


One has to wonder why a government so well designed as I have indicated can become so dysfunctional as ours has become. It is unable to resolve the critical issues that are tearing us apart -- health care, abortion, foreign relations, immigration, taxes, and others. We citizens thrash about, blaming this or that official, political party, or group. We complain about those powerful, greedy, and corrupting "special interest" groups (excepting, of course, our own interest groups lobbying for more social security benefits and lower taxes).

The more discerning among us are beginning to see that, despite the above described provisions to regulate and control our democracy, it has become more of a problem and less of a solution. We have lost the less-formal constraints on democracy that made it work so well; the many social and political institutions undemocratic in their structure that privately and strongly influenced our political decisions -- including for instance the confidential "smoke-filled room" meetings of congressional or party leaders and the pressures exerted by relatively unbiased and civic-minded social organizations or professions.

Much of these viewpoints come from "The Future of Freedom" by Fareed Zakara (2003) I was highly impressed with his ideas and wonder about the reactions of other readers of this book.
kyle22
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Post by kyle22 »

It's better for the majority to be in control of the minority than for a minority to control the majority.
Dewey
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Democracy vs. Freedom

Post by Dewey »

Dear kyle22:

You opined: "It's better for the majority to be in control of the minority than for a minority to control the majority."

Your signoff includes: "US Presidential Candidates Blog". Apparently, you're a close follower of the current presidential race. In that context, let's suppose that the election puts the Democrats in majority control in both the administration and legislature and, for all practical purposes, the entire federal government. Thus, one day the Republicans are in control over the Democrats and the next day the Democrats control over the Republicans.

Let's further suppose you're a Republican. Do you think you would continue to hold the above opinion after the election? If so, why"
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Samhains
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Post by Samhains »

Bona Na Croin... :lol:
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strike
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Location: london, Ontario

Post by strike »

unfortunateley the argument that democracy or republican is a majority is actually wrong.

for example how many civilian people are actively involved in political desision making, the people do not make decisions, the people elect someone often from multiple choice on a ballot to do the desision makeing for them.

therefore the majority is not in power, the minority is the one making decisions as they are the smaller group.
Dewey
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Democracy vs. Freedom

Post by Dewey »

Dear Samhaines:

I do these forums to exchange ideas, to get them as well as to give them. You gave this idea: "Bona Na Croin" following my thread, so I thought that you might be addressing me. Therefore I dutifully looked up the meaning of this Latin phrase and read the pagan poem that it refers to. I learned a new poem, but I didn't get your idea.

You may not have been addressing me at all; but perhaps you wouldn't mind satisfying my curiosity with an explanation of what you meant. Thanks.
Dewey
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Democracy vs. Freedom?

Post by Dewey »

Dear Strike:

Your example of a political minority having more power than a political majority seems to me to be defective.

The minority and majority powers that I spoke of were the two principal political parties. You speak of a minority power comprising our elected representatives and a majority power comprising the people who elected them. You say of them: (1)"the people do not make decisions, the people elect someone often from multiple choice on a ballot to do the decision making for them." and (2)therefor the majority is not in power, the minority is the one making decisions...".

We, the people, do, as you say, have a representative government and we give our Reps much power. But we are also a DEMOCRACY, defined by its Greek root as "the rule of the people". WE elect the Reps and control them with numerous restraints and ratification requirements. We, the majority, have the ultimate power (though I will concede we don't wield it as well as we could and should).
fiftyfifty
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Post by fiftyfifty »

"Democracy" is an abstract concept. We can't observe it directly. By calling itself a "democracy" does'nt mean that a government operate the way that we conceptualize a "democracy" to work. We may define "democracy" as "government by the people", but what does "government by the people" mean in practical terms?
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Samhains
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Re: Democracy vs. Freedom?

Post by Samhains »

Which is more important--democracy or freedom?


Neither. :wink:
It is subjection to the will of the God and Goddess that is important, not mans will.
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strike
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Location: london, Ontario

Post by strike »

the majority is not political, it is civilian.(currently)
as the civilians make up the majority of the population we are only given multiple choices not the ability to independant ideas

but as a part of that majority i agree we do not use the power of majority very well, in history the times of majority rule is often started by revolution(quiet or violent), usually overthrowing a current political leader. wich in turn will create a political majority, and in time again a non-political minority will rise up to become a non-political majority. wich eventually revolts again. and the cycle repeats. pure freedom is impossable while there is government above
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InfinityMuse
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Joined: October 20th, 2022, 1:24 am

Re:

Post by InfinityMuse »

strike wrote: December 18th, 2007, 2:59 pm the majority is not political, it is civilian.(currently)
as the civilians make up the majority of the population we are only given multiple choices not the ability to independant ideas

but as a part of that majority i agree we do not use the power of majority very well, in history the times of majority rule is often started by revolution(quiet or violent), usually overthrowing a current political leader. wich in turn will create a political majority, and in time again a non-political minority will rise up to become a non-political majority. wich eventually revolts again. and the cycle repeats. pure freedom is impossable while there is government above
Why civilians and not man? Justly?
The biggest argument is all men. man

Man men

Wo man wo men
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Fried Egg
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Re: Democracy vs. Freedom?

Post by Fried Egg »

complimentarymatters wrote: November 9th, 2007, 7:40 pm Which is more important--democracy or freedom?

Many people say democracy is good, but it means that the majority controls the minority. How can democracy be good if it means that the minority lose their freedom?
It is not a choice between democracy or freedom, but rather a choice between democracy or tyranny. Of course, democracy will never be perfect. As Churchill once said: "democracy is the worst form of government – except for all the others that have been tried."

I think that what one must accept is that any form of social organization will inevitably lead to some people being curtailed. We are a large pool of individuals competing over the use of scarce resources. We need some set of rules that limit what we can do and allow us all to interact more peacefully. We might try to maximize freedom but we will never have absolute freedom (unless you live alone on a desert island).
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