News, Conspiracy and Post Truth: What is Happening in the World?

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JackDaydream
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News, Conspiracy and Post Truth: What is Happening in the World?

Post by JackDaydream »

Sociological analysis has involved critical analysis of news and how the mass media generate or 'manufacture' news. The items on news headlines and broadcasts represent the picture of reality which owners of the organisations behind the media. It can be argued that items on the news cannot always be taken at face value. I have found this to present a difficulty because there is s need for information and accuracy about events.

In searching for alternative perspectives, one major trend is conspiracy theories. In, 'The Rough Guide to Conspiracy Theories' James McConnachie and Robin Tudge say,
' "conspiracy" means a very particular kind of plan. It must involve more than one person_ no "lone gunman" can make up a conspiracy of one. It must have goals that are either criminal, hostile or nefariously political_ no one can conspire to forgive Third World debt or feed the homeless. And it must be secret_ conspirators do not announce their manifestos to the world.

One writer who I have read in the past is David Icke, who speaks of hidden agendas behind politics, including secret organisations of power, such as the Illuminati. He considers there to be so much more to events such as assassinations and the attacks of September 11th. I do read such ideas as food for thinking and it is easy to get carried away in this. One idea which I do take seriously is that Lady Diana's death in a car crash was not a mere accident. Icke's most outrageous idea is that the British Royal family are shapeshifing reptiles.'

How is clarity of thought and accurate facts obtained. The problem of this is looked at by Michael Kakutani, in, 'The death of Truth' (2018). He looks in particular how the idea of truth as being objective is mocked through the rise of relativism and the deconstruction of postmodernism. He sees the collapse of the idea of truth as giving rise to problems in society and in politics.
Kakutani argues that in the twentieth century there was,
'a despoiling of truth' and he quotes Hannah Arendt,
'The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction( ie the standards of thought) no longer exist.' He also points to the rise of fake news.

In this thread I am asking you to think about how you understand truth and lack of it in the mass media in the twentieth century. Do conspiracy theories have any sway on your understanding of what is happening in the world? How much and what is important to know? How can accurate and factual information be gathered from sources?
stevie
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Re: News, Conspiracy and Post Truth: What is Happening in the World?

Post by stevie »

What is the criterion of truth?
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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JackDaydream
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Re: News, Conspiracy and Post Truth: What is Happening in the World?

Post by JackDaydream »

@stevie

Your question of this may be what Kakutani is speaking of in the idea of the breakdown of truth. However, I certainly don't see it as being simple and am particularly influenced by postmodernism and its breakdown of meanings.

I guess it may be how far one goes. Each person perceives events from a particular subjective angle. But there may be some versions which are more truthful or reliable than others. The case of outright lies is in the existence of fake news. I have been fooled by a few things which I read on my phone. Once in lockdown, I read on my phone that all sale of alcohol in shops( pubs were shut) was going to be illegal. I told a friend before realising it was fake. Perhaps, I was a bit of a fool but I read it on my phone. Also, I read that the department store 'Woolworths' was going to reopen and was rather disappointing that was not true.

So, it is not really the case of definitive answers of truth being sought necessarily but the basics. I don't have a television so when I get up I do need to know the news, especially in a time of rules and restrictions. Generally, many people I know watch the news and accept it as being completely accurate. There may be the need for some basis of 'truth' within the media, such as whether there are major incidents. However, a critical approach to facts and 'truth' may lead to deeper scrutiny than the superficial headlines, especially as newspapers may write these on the basis of trying to lead people to buy the papers.
Gertie
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Re: News, Conspiracy and Post Truth: What is Happening in the World?

Post by Gertie »

Jack
How is clarity of thought and accurate facts obtained. The problem of this is looked at by Michael Kakutani, in, 'The death of Truth' (2018). He looks in particular how the idea of truth as being objective is mocked through the rise of relativism and the deconstruction of postmodernism. He sees the collapse of the idea of truth as giving rise to problems in society and in politics.
Kakutani argues that in the twentieth century there was,
'a despoiling of truth' and he quotes Hannah Arendt,
'The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction( ie the standards of thought) no longer exist.' He also points to the rise of fake news.
I think it's true that our certainty in the notion of truth, and trust in institutions has been undermined, morality too - and that genie isn't going back in the bottle. I'd say this asks us to take a more sophisticated approach to such concepts, as well as asking ''what are they for''.

I don't think conspiracy theories are helpful, because in the public square we need some shared territory where we can find ways to agree what 'truth', 'facts' and 'right and wrong' mean to us as a society, and which can help us to thrive. Institutions and education, mores and narratives we broadly agree we can communally rely on.

In the UK we have the BBC which was supposed to be independant and trustworthy, offering that type of reliable shared resource, a touchstone in a shouty, opinionated world, where privileged voices dictate agendas and other's reactions. Of course every news service is selective and to some extent follows the zeitgeist, but the BBC's aim is worthy. Unfortunately it requires a government and citizenry to protect those values, and we're heading in the other direction at the moment.
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Re: News, Conspiracy and Post Truth: What is Happening in the World?

Post by AmericanKestrel »

stevie wrote: January 24th, 2022, 9:03 am What is the criterion of truth?
Great question. There is evidence, there is news, history, facts, and falsity. None of these are truths. Truth to be truth cannot change, cannot become a lie. Saddam never had any nuclear weapons, yet US bombed and destroyed the country base on "evidence."
I think Truth is very hard to find, it at all we can. We can only have "facts and evidence for now."
"The Serpent did not lie."
Gee
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Re: News, Conspiracy and Post Truth: What is Happening in the World?

Post by Gee »

What is happening in the World? Objectivity.

People see objective evidence as true -- it is not. Evidence requires interpretation and all interpretation is subjective.

Science and objectivity is seen to be true and valid; religion and subjectivity is seen to be mostly opinion and is suspect.

So what happens when we dismiss subjectivity as not really valid? We dismiss and deny nobility, integrity, honesty, compassion, and a whole host of other characteristics that can not be proven or shown objectively.

Gee
stevie
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Re: News, Conspiracy and Post Truth: What is Happening in the World?

Post by stevie »

JackDaydream wrote: January 24th, 2022, 9:33 am @ stevie

Your question of this may be what Kakutani is speaking of in the idea of the breakdown of truth. However, I certainly don't see it as being simple and am particularly influenced by postmodernism and its breakdown of meanings.

I guess it may be how far one goes. Each person perceives events from a particular subjective angle. But there may be some versions which are more truthful or reliable than others. The case of outright lies is in the existence of fake news. I have been fooled by a few things which I read on my phone. Once in lockdown, I read on my phone that all sale of alcohol in shops( pubs were shut) was going to be illegal. I told a friend before realising it was fake. Perhaps, I was a bit of a fool but I read it on my phone. Also, I read that the department store 'Woolworths' was going to reopen and was rather disappointing that was not true.

So, it is not really the case of definitive answers of truth being sought necessarily but the basics. I don't have a television so when I get up I do need to know the news, especially in a time of rules and restrictions. Generally, many people I know watch the news and accept it as being completely accurate. There may be the need for some basis of 'truth' within the media, such as whether there are major incidents. However, a critical approach to facts and 'truth' may lead to deeper scrutiny than the superficial headlines, especially as newspapers may write these on the basis of trying to lead people to buy the papers.
To me it appears thus: it isn't reasonable to appeal to people to acknowledge something as 'truth' if one isn't able to reveal a/the criterion of 'truth'. To replace the term 'truth' by the term 'fact' is no remedy if one isn't able to reveal a/the criterion of facticity either. To ignore this but still argue using the terms 'truth' and/or 'fact' either is [philosophical] dogmatism or [non-philosophical] policy executed as politics.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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JackDaydream
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Re: News, Conspiracy and Post Truth: What is Happening in the World?

Post by JackDaydream »

@Gertie

I used to find conspiracy theory useful for thinking from different angles but I have got to the point where I think that it just makes everything so confusing. The other day, I was having a conversation with someone who has been a candidate in local elections for many years. This person suggested to me that the emphasis on climate change in the news is based on deception. I didn't get into the discussion because I thought that it was probably going too far.

It could be that there is so much confusion about what is reality going on in the world that it leads people to switch off. Generally, I take the view that the best approach is to weigh up the sources and see beyond the headlines. But, even the headlines sometimes carry a certain amount of conspiracy. I began thinking about this several days ago in connection with stories about Boris Johnson. There had been accounts of him breaking rules by having drinking parties during lockdown and how he was practically finished as prime minister. Then, a couple of days later, there were headlines about how there had been a plot to 'oust Boris' by the stories which had been spread.

Many people may switch off from the news because there seems to be so much rhetoric. Personally, I like to know what is going on but prefer to look at various sources in order to be critically aware. However, if I spend too much time thinking about the news I end up getting depressed because it is mostly bad news. Many people may feel this, but, then the problem left is that the news is not abstract philosophy but events which have practical implications on our lives, and in some ways our own lives may become part of the news, even if we are not rich and famous.
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JackDaydream
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Re: News, Conspiracy and Post Truth: What is Happening in the World?

Post by JackDaydream »

@Gee

The difference between objectivity and subjectivity is extremely complicated. So called objectivity would almost be that of an omniscient narrator, when that is not possible. Perhaps, the best possible is understanding the various subjective views. This may just be a war of ideas and who has loudest and what the majority believe. That may be the problem and I am not sure that there is any real solution.
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JackDaydream
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Re: News, Conspiracy and Post Truth: What is Happening in the World?

Post by JackDaydream »

@stevie

It may be that people are inclined to replace the word 'truth' with fact because there is less of a moral connotation. It is still as problematic as truth because there is so much ambiguity of facts. People may look towards statistics but, even then, that would involve questioning the basis of how the statistics were put together. This makes it hard to distinguish facts and fiction with so much blurring. It is definitely a problem and can lead to a sense of chaos of information.
stevie
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Re: News, Conspiracy and Post Truth: What is Happening in the World?

Post by stevie »

stevie wrote: January 24th, 2022, 9:03 am What is the criterion of truth?
stevie wrote: January 25th, 2022, 3:20 am To me it appears thus: it isn't reasonable to appeal to people to acknowledge something as 'truth' if one isn't able to reveal a/the criterion of 'truth'. To replace the term 'truth' by the term 'fact' is no remedy if one isn't able to reveal a/the criterion of facticity either. To ignore this but still argue using the terms 'truth' and/or 'fact' either is [philosophical] dogmatism or [non-philosophical] policy executed as politics.
So what's the consequence when neither the truth/facticity of news, conspiracy theories and postulates of politics can be ascertained in terms of 'truth' and/or 'fact'?
For the individual: put assertions of 'truth' or 'facts' into the garbage of speculations and beliefs and take everything that others claim/assert with a grain of salt, don't get involved in their views and stay distanced.
For the collective: they have to agree on conventions as to the grounds for taking particular decisions that are not exclusively individually private.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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Re: News, Conspiracy and Post Truth: What is Happening in the World?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

JackDaydream wrote: January 24th, 2022, 8:51 am In this thread I am asking you to think about how you understand truth and lack of it in the mass media in the twentieth century.
  • Our media sometimes report the 'truth' as they understand it.
  • At other times, they knowingly offer lies sponsored by their owners.
  • And sometimes their news is unintentionally untrue, as they are mistaken.
What is reported in the media is a mixture of these three. Deciding which of the three has given rise to a particular piece of news is the difficult bit.


JackDaydream wrote: January 24th, 2022, 8:51 am Do conspiracy theories have any sway on your understanding of what is happening in the world?
Conspiracy theories sometimes offer useful and interesting ideas, but mostly they are fantasies and wishful thinking. In general, conspiracy theories have no influence on my understanding of the world.


JackDaydream wrote: January 24th, 2022, 8:51 am How much and what is important to know?
That is easier to judge once we know it; chicken and egg. Until we know something, how can we judge its worth?


JackDaydream wrote: January 24th, 2022, 8:51 am How can accurate and factual information be gathered from sources?
With difficulty. 😉
Pattern-chaser

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JackDaydream
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Re: News, Conspiracy and Post Truth: What is Happening in the World?

Post by JackDaydream »

@stevie

In some ways, I have stopped trying to know all the facts/truth in the news, but I definitely have times when I really get stressed out by the news. If there is an issue which I am following, I try to read it in various newspapers. I don't read newspapers that much but some people do every single day. I couldn't do that because the news can be so miserable.

I do have friends who believe in conspiracy theories in.a big way, which is why I think about the ideas. I have moments when I start to wonder, but often it can be a situation of thinking from the paranoid position.
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JackDaydream
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Re: News, Conspiracy and Post Truth: What is Happening in the World?

Post by JackDaydream »

@Pattern-chaser

You are probably right that some of the inaccuracies in the news are genuine errors. I do agree that the conspiracies are often fantasies and that is why they may be attractive to some people. Once an idea,such as the idea of totalitarian control, is thought about it is possible to imagine all sorts of possible things. In a way, they are like cartoon caricatures or the soap operas of the news, as a form of entertainment. They can also make people fearful as well. A person who believed in the conspiracy ideas might even be afraid to voice the ideas online for fear of the consequences.
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JackDaydream
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Re: News, Conspiracy and Post Truth: What is Happening in the World?

Post by JackDaydream »

I am wondering has anyone here read any of David Icke's books. If so, what do you think of his approach? I find some of his ideas, fairly interesting such as secret societies connected to organisations. I do wonder about the idea of the Illuminati, and to what extent it exists or whether it is a myth.
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