Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

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chewybrian
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Re: Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

Post by chewybrian »

Ecurb wrote: February 27th, 2022, 7:37 pm
LuckyR wrote: February 27th, 2022, 4:53 pm
Oh I don't know, my observation is that the response is typical for a European ground war.
IN the last 50 years the main European ground wars were in the former Yugoslavia. I don't remember this much of an American media response (although, of course, we did end up bombing Serbia).

Another observation: Trump and his supporters see Russia as the last "truly European" country. OUr allies in Western Europe have all become multi-racial and multi-cultural nations. Racisim fuels Trumpite's respect for Putin and Russia.

Also, the media response is justified in that Russia is a world power and a threat. We didn't really need to fear Serbia, Croatia, or Bosnia. They weren't capable of threatening the major Western powers. Is Russia? They lack the economic power these days, but their military still packs a punch.
That all seems spot on, but especially the part about Trump supporters and racism. I am surrounded by them. My friends, family, neighbors, and coworkers are about 80% pro-Trump. They have huge blind spots in terms of seeing the kind of person Trump is and seeing his true goals (both glaringly obvious!), and seeing their own racism. They are a lot like Jim Crow supporters who thought that creating "their own" schools, bathrooms and lunch counters was a satisfactory end to racism. My own father says things like: "I'm not a racist, but there are too many black people on TV these days". Limiting peoples' rights to vote or deciding that we can't talk about gay people in school is active discrimination, but they don't even see it as passive discrimination. Their right to pretend gay people don't exist is more critical, in their minds, than the rights of gay people to be treated as, you know, people!

Sadly. I think you can describe most of them accurately as "useful idiots". For example, they are worried that increasing the minimum wage will cost them, but protective of tax cuts for the wealthy that they are convinced will lead to the creation of good jobs (even as real wages continue to fall for all but the top wage earners!). Since Reagan, wealth has been funneled to the top at ever increasing rates, yet these folks are convinced that only their oppressors can save them from the socialist boogieman.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
GE Morton
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Re: Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

Post by GE Morton »

Atla wrote: February 27th, 2022, 12:07 pm Or maybe after 20 years of being unable to stop the advancement of NATO, Putin finally snapped.
That is an important, perhaps the crucial, point.

Russia and the Ukraine have a long, though often uneasy, relationship. The Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire through the 18th-19th centuries, and one of the founding republics of the USSR in 1922. The Ukraine was the latter's agricultural "breadbasket." About 18% of the Ukraine's population are ethnic Russians, and majorities in some parts of the country, especially the eastern portion, strongly pro-Russian. Indeed, in 2015 two eastern provinces declared themselves independent states, provoking a limited civil war with the Kiev government. Most of the country's population are bilingual, fluent in both Ukrainian and Russian.

After the breakup of the USSR in 1989-90 the Ukraine declared itself to be neutral, entering into a mutual defense pact with Russia while simultaneously seeking membership in the EU. Also, in the wake of that breakup, the Western powers, including the US, began a sustained effort to woo the newly independent former Soviet republics and satellite states into the Western camp, including membership in NATO. The Baltic states (Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania), along with Poland, Albania, Hungary, Romania, and the successor states to Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia are now all NATO members.

NATO is a military alliance. Should Ukraine join, Russia would find itself completely enclosed by a military alliance it considers hostile. Given that Putin is an authoritarian besotted by the dream of resurrecting the Russian Empire, this invasion is understandable and should have been predictable, especially in light of his annexation of the Crimea in 1914 (whose population is mostly Russian and where Russia has a crucial naval base).

Western politicians should have been a bit more circumspect in encroaching upon territory long regarded by Russia as being within its sphere of influence.
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Re: Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

Post by GE Morton »

Ooops, 2014, not 1914, for the Crimean annexation.
Atla
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Re: Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Atla »

GE Morton wrote: February 28th, 2022, 3:09 pm
Atla wrote: February 27th, 2022, 12:07 pm Or maybe after 20 years of being unable to stop the advancement of NATO, Putin finally snapped.
That is an important, perhaps the crucial, point.

Russia and the Ukraine have a long, though often uneasy, relationship. The Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire through the 18th-19th centuries, and one of the founding republics of the USSR in 1922. The Ukraine was the latter's agricultural "breadbasket." About 18% of the Ukraine's population are ethnic Russians, and majorities in some parts of the country, especially the eastern portion, strongly pro-Russian. Indeed, in 2015 two eastern provinces declared themselves independent states, provoking a limited civil war with the Kiev government. Most of the country's population are bilingual, fluent in both Ukrainian and Russian.

After the breakup of the USSR in 1989-90 the Ukraine declared itself to be neutral, entering into a mutual defense pact with Russia while simultaneously seeking membership in the EU. Also, in the wake of that breakup, the Western powers, including the US, began a sustained effort to woo the newly independent former Soviet republics and satellite states into the Western camp, including membership in NATO. The Baltic states (Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania), along with Poland, Albania, Hungary, Romania, and the successor states to Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia are now all NATO members.

NATO is a military alliance. Should Ukraine join, Russia would find itself completely enclosed by a military alliance it considers hostile. Given that Putin is an authoritarian besotted by the dream of resurrecting the Russian Empire, this invasion is understandable and should have been predictable, especially in light of his annexation of the Crimea in 1914 (whose population is mostly Russian and where Russia has a crucial naval base).

Western politicians should have been a bit more circumspect in encroaching upon territory long regarded by Russia as being within its sphere of influence.
Not much wooing and encroaching was needed, because people living in many of those European post-Soviet territories were the ones who wanted the expansion of NATO the most. People want to live FREE.
But history has shown again and again and again that Russia will overrun its neighbors the first chance it gets, without care or remorse. Just business as usual for them. In the eyes of those Europeans, at this point Russia is simply deemed irredeemable, for the foreseeable future. And now Russia is once again doing exactly that, overrunning one of its neighbours.

Putin can whine all he wants that NATO has surrounded Russia to an extreme degree, they have mostly themselves to thank.
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Atla
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Re: Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Atla »

It also should be noted that Putin has never seemed so rash and impulsive before. Something seems to be off with him compared to his prior self, he's now a different sociopath. Maybe old age got to him and the Covid isolation had some effect as well.
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Tegularius
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Re: Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Tegularius »

Atla wrote: February 28th, 2022, 5:22 pm It also should be noted that Putin has never seemed so rash and impulsive before. Something seems to be off with him compared to his prior self, he's now a different sociopath. Maybe old age got to him and the Covid isolation had some effect as well.
Most dangerous now is what sociopathological impulses in the Kremlin overall will allow Putin to continue in whatever path he chooses.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
Atla
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Re: Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Atla »

Tegularius wrote: March 1st, 2022, 7:47 pm
Atla wrote: February 28th, 2022, 5:22 pm It also should be noted that Putin has never seemed so rash and impulsive before. Something seems to be off with him compared to his prior self, he's now a different sociopath. Maybe old age got to him and the Covid isolation had some effect as well.
Most dangerous now is what sociopathological impulses in the Kremlin overall will allow Putin to continue in whatever path he chooses.
Yes :( looks like, they would still carry out any order he gives.
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Darshan
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Re: Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Darshan »

Earthellism sees its philosophy helping us in this war. Putin is a brutal dictator and a master assassin. He enjoys killing his opponents in cruel and unusual ways. He cannot stand living next to a democracy like Ukraine and individually chose to destroy their democracy. Very similar to Hitler against Poland in 1939. Trump gave him confidence to do this by praising Putin at all times. Luckily, someone there learned the philosophy of earthellism and are practicing its principles. First Putin is now a human devil who craves the death of innocent free women, children and men. It took 6 million innocent people to die to destroy Hitler and 3000 innocent people to die to destroy Osama bin Laden. Unfortunately it will take 10,000 to 100,000 men, women and children to die to destroy Putin. Better to fight to the death than be a slave in your own country. All Ukrainians who die in this war are true human heroes for helping to finally destroy the great human devil of this century - Dictator Putin.
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Re: Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Darshan »

Earthellism agrees and salutes Senator Graham for the calling for the immediate removal of Dictator Putin. We are watching war crimes in real time as we relive what it felt like when Hitler invaded its neighbors. The dictator of North Korea is also a human devil like Putin and should also be removed. We all have heard War is Hell but the reverse is also true that Hell is War. The great error of the last century was the concept that killing a brutal dictator may result in someone worse. That is not true because all brutal dictators always kill or imprison anyone that could challenge their power or brutality. That is why there is never a vice-dictator.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Sy Borg »

I also dislike "evil Putin" and "crazy Putin" propaganda. Yes, he is clearly a kleptocrat, not that he's Robinson Crusoe there. Further, the western media outlets that cheered on the disastrous Iraq invasion have no business telling people what to think (not naming names, Rupert - oops!).

Trouble is, if you are dealing with an evil madman, then you must go to war, providing tremendous amounts of business to companies that benefit from the war machine. The line between reporting and paid content has long been blurred.

On the other hand, if Putin is seen as a strategic global player, then negotiations should be possible. Trouble is, given that NATO broke their agreement with Russia not to expand, I'm not sure either sure either side can trust the other to stick to any bargain.

Ultimately, if Putin is a rational actor, then mutual self interest should prevent WWIII. Still, his nuclear weapon posturing was unforgivable recklessness. I think Putin is rational, but he is also dishonest and corrupt. Based on his nuclear brinkmanship, it seems he is a psychopath, again, like other world leaders and former leaders. Clearly, any national leader that becomes a billionaire while in office as Putin has done has been up to no good. Yet, US is ranked as more inequitable than the US, so Putin's theft is perhaps less problematic than US multinationals' tax evasion.

If the US had not blown its global trust and credibility with the Iraq invasion, it would have the moral authority to better deal with this situation. At this stage, America effectively lives in a glass house and cannot throw stones without hypocrisy.

Ideally, GW Bush, Tony Blair and John Howard should have been brought before the Hague for war crimes after the Iraq invasion. Failing to do so signalled that "might is right" and nations need not bother doing the right thing, just what they can get away with. NATO's expansion against the agreement with Yeltsin is another example of might being right, back when the US seemed unassailable.

Still, Putin should ask himself the question: Why would a country with such close shared history with mother Russia prefer to side with the west? What can Putin do to convince former territories of the USSR that they would be better off joining with Russia - other than with propaganda, white-anting, threats and violence? Not stealing, providing the Russian people freedom of speech and information, and not trying to kill opposition party leaders would surely help. Can't see that happening, though.
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Re: Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Atla »

Hats off to Putin, guys. Really, what superb timing. Took me by surprise too. I really should have anticipated that. The sleeping bear always wins.
Putin seems to have just done more damage to Russia, than what the West could have hoped to do to Russia in their wildest dreams. Even if Russia wins this war, they are probably headed for a big collapse. Even if they would finally try to expose the US's tricks, like staging the Moon landings and 9/11, it probably wouldn't make much difference now, so yeah "hats off" to Putin.
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Re: Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

Post by JackDaydream »

I have read this thread and I have to admit that I am struggling to understand the full depths of the politics. I do look at news, but I am sure there are biases in reporting of facts. The big question which I have though is not simply about understanding politics, but about how the situation can be managed safely. The biggest problem is that nuclear weapons are involved and it could escalate into the greatest catastrophe of all times. There are already deaths but it is hard to know what is going to happen...

One thing which I am aware of when I look at news is that Covid_19 was seen as the big problem and, now, that has faded almost into insignificance with the war situation. It does seem like the real threat of the end of the world or civilisation is in our midst and what can be done to avert it? It may be a bigger problem than can be handled by philosophy but as human beings philosophy may be the level at which the immense problem may be considered.
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Re: Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Sy Borg »

JackDaydream wrote: March 5th, 2022, 8:10 pmOne thing which I am aware of when I look at news is that Covid_19 was seen as the big problem and, now, that has faded almost into insignificance with the war situation.
This highlights the way the media amplifies the biggest thing and reduces everything else. This echoes the way our minds work - focus on one thing and everything else will be relatively indistinct - and this seems to have an amplifier effect of creating the kind of laser focus that killed Princess Di and sent Harry abroad, that cheered on the Iraq invasion, that touts gold medal winners as heroes while the silver medallist who was 1/100th of a second behind is forgotten, or musicians that become superstars while many others of similar talents are ignored, etc.

People like to blame the tech billionaires, but the old media moguls had been playing that game long before social media. All social media has done is provided some level of empowerment for everyone, and the laser focus is on a person's own interests rather than what the media tells them to focus on. It seems that most people see this as an appalling and dangerous idea.

Might it be that most people would rather be controlled than free? The calls for freedom tend to be in limited arenas, eg. the freedom not to vax or the freedom to publicly attack blacks and gays. In the meantime, few seem to care about the phasing out of physical money, even though digital currency, aside from Bitcoin, is a means for authorities, corporations and criminals to trace everywhere you go and every cent you spend your money on. Most people - including what I think of as fake freedom campaigners - have fully embraced cashless transactions, which makes clear that many making calls for freedom are either insincere or only considering their own interests.

Watching the US in the past few years made clear that nation's yearning to be rules by an absolute monarch. Let's face it, Putin is nor Russia's president, he is Russia's king, and Xi has become China's king. Many in the US want that certainty for themselves, with polls making clear that most Republicans would prefer to live under Putin's Russian regime than under democracy with the Democrats in power. The people of the west generally seem exhausted and confused by freedom, and are leaning towards the certainty of a "hard man" father figure.

Ultimately, this is part of a larger dynamic. When a species become populous enough, there is increased competition, hostility, fighting and killing until numbers stabilise. We humans like to think we are different, but we are only different in matters of degree. Human nature remains very similar to that of other animals and, as times become harder, that animal nature emerges from beneath that thin veneer of civilisation with which we naively identify, as if the savage shadows of our nature did not exist.
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Re: Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

Post by thrasymachus »

ernestm wrote
Hats off to Putin, guys. Really, what superb timing. Took me by surprise too. I really should have anticipated that. The sleeping bear always wins.
But my hat is off to a society that allows you to say monstrous things and not be spirited away in the night. Ever read Gulag Archipelago? Don't be so proud of Putin. I mean, you may appreciate his timing or whatever, and you certainly have a point about american hypocrisy (ugh! The worst. If I see one more god d**m american flag waving in the name of.....don't get me started. A solid HALF of the country are low grade morons) , but really, who f***ing cares about this? It is a despicable lack of moral understanding that I despise with every fiber of my being. People like this and trump, too (who would have, had there been a chance, done worse!) should be boiled in their own pudding, hanged over and over for a thousand years and then have their souls thrown into purgatory (a great idea, quite real, I'm sure. It explains why some people are thrown into a world of suffering) for a million years.
Superb timing? dDn't be a willful idiot.
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JackDaydream
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Re: Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

Post by JackDaydream »

Sy Borg wrote: March 5th, 2022, 8:42 pm
JackDaydream wrote: March 5th, 2022, 8:10 pmOne thing which I am aware of when I look at news is that Covid_19 was seen as the big problem and, now, that has faded almost into insignificance with the war situation.
This highlights the way the media amplifies the biggest thing and reduces everything else. This echoes the way our minds work - focus on one thing and everything else will be relatively indistinct - and this seems to have an amplifier effect of creating the kind of laser focus that killed Princess Di and sent Harry abroad, that cheered on the Iraq invasion, that touts gold medal winners as heroes while the silver medallist who was 1/100th of a second behind is forgotten, or musicians that become superstars while many others of similar talents are ignored, etc.

People like to blame the tech billionaires, but the old media moguls had been playing that game long before social media. All social media has done is provided some level of empowerment for everyone, and the laser focus is on a person's own interests rather than what the media tells them to focus on. It seems that most people see this as an appalling and dangerous idea.

Might it be that most people would rather be controlled than free? The calls for freedom tend to be in limited arenas, eg. the freedom not to vax or the freedom to publicly attack blacks and gays. In the meantime, few seem to care about the phasing out of physical money, even though digital currency, aside from Bitcoin, is a means for authorities, corporations and criminals to trace everywhere you go and every cent you spend your money on. Most people - including what I think of as fake freedom campaigners - have fully embraced cashless transactions, which makes clear that many making calls for freedom are either insincere or only considering their own interests.
I have always been a little cautious of how to interpret news since thinking about it sociologically. The media industry controls what is knowledge. Many people do seem to take the news at face value and accept things happening. It may be that so many changes, such as cashless transactions, have been introduced under the guise of Covid_19 regulations. It is hard to know what may be introduced under the potential war situation.

It is hard to know how to see the situation clearly. I admit that I only watch and read a certain amount of news because it is all too much. I am glad that I don't have a television because if I sat watching the news alone in my room I think that I would go crazy. My own thinking gets blurred with apocalyptic fears associated with my religious pictures of the end of the world.

Unfortunately, it is true that focus often becomes on 'one thing'. Perhaps, human minds can only worry about one thing at a time. I often joke that there are so many worries that I don't know which to worry about first. But, the problem may be that the narrowing of focus in thinking leads to lopsided or shortsighted solutions. But, however it is viewed it seems that the world is in a deep mess and probably beyond the scope of all known political and philosophical logic. It is hard to see the way to freedom, especially as self interest is a stumbling block, as the 'dark' side of human nature.
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