Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

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GE Morton
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Re: Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

Post by GE Morton »

Sy Borg wrote: March 5th, 2022, 2:25 am
Ultimately, if Putin is a rational actor, then mutual self interest should prevent WWIII. Still, his nuclear weapon posturing was unforgivable recklessness. I think Putin is rational, but he is also dishonest and corrupt. Based on his nuclear brinkmanship, it seems he is a psychopath, again, like other world leaders and former leaders. Clearly, any national leader that becomes a billionaire while in office as Putin has done has been up to no good. Yet, US is ranked as more inequitable than the US, so Putin's theft is perhaps less problematic than US multinationals' tax evasion.
Now, now. There is no (or very little) "tax evasion" among US corporations. They pay what they legally owe. The Russian economic oligarchy arose with Yeltsin, when he privatized many former State-owned industries --- and handed them over to various political cronies.
What are the policies that you think have most driven the US's relatively high levels of inequality?

Sy Borg wrote: March 5th, 2022, 2:25 am
Still, Putin should ask himself the question: Why would a country with such close shared history with mother Russia prefer to side with the west? What can Putin do to convince former territories of the USSR that they would be better off joining with Russia - other than with propaganda, white-anting, threats and violence? Not stealing, providing the Russian people freedom of speech and information, and not trying to kill opposition party leaders would surely help. Can't see that happening, though.
It's misleading to claim "the country" would prefer to side with the West. Some of its people --- a large fraction --- would, mainly because they see it as the route to greater prosperity. But there are also many who feel a kinship with Russia, because of that long history and especially their common fight against the Nazis in WWII. Also, some 18% of Ukrainians are ethnic Russians.

I suspect a settlement per which Ukraine could align economically with the West, such as as by joining the EU, but not joining NATO or permitting NATO forces or operations on its territory, would satisfy Putin. But that may be wishful thinking.
Yes, it was just shorthand. There will always be a range of views and some polarisation.

I also agree with the idea of NATO compromising with Russia on Ukraine, but it seems the horse has bolted. Not sure that "We will not let Russia dictate who joins NATO" was a smart approach in hindsight, especially given the many gains NATO made close to Russia anyway. Ideally, there would be give and take. Even more ideally, the Ukraine people would decide their own destiny, but it is too significant to Mother Russia and its new powerful friend, America, for that to happen. After all, it's not as though Russia and America have shown similar interest in issues in Africa. I suppose if those warring nations had "abundant reserves of coal, iron ore, natural gas, manganese, salt, oil, graphite, sulphur, kaolin, titanium, nickel, magnesium, timber, and mercury" as Ukraine does, the superpowers would be more interested.
GE Morton
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Re: Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

Post by GE Morton »

Aaaargh!

What happened to my post, Sy? The above was not mine, despite the byline, but looks like your response to it.

??
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Sy Borg
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Re: Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Sy Borg »

Very sorry GE! I clicked the edit rather than the quote button.

There are parts of your post I can piece back together from the above, but some is lost unless you can remember it and I can edit it back in.

Sorry again for losing your thoughts, which I largely agreed with BTW. Will avoid posting before coffee from now on to avoid similar mindless mistakes.
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JackDaydream
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Re: Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

Post by JackDaydream »

Sy Borg wrote: March 6th, 2022, 5:19 am Very sorry GE! I clicked the edit rather than the quote button.

There are parts of your post I can piece back together from the above, but some is lost unless you can remember it and I can edit it back in.

Sorry again for losing your thoughts, which I largely agreed with BTW. Will avoid posting before coffee from now on to avoid similar mindless mistakes.
What is interesting here is that from what I have heard and read is that it would only take someone operating nuclear weapons to press a wrong button to cause nuclear devastation by accident. So, let's hope that whoever is responding to Putin and others to make sure they have plenty of coffee. Apparently, there has been near misses in the past. It has always been a problem that mass annihilation has been possible at the touch of a switch. it may only now with the current political crisis of Ukraine that many people will really think about the way in which nuclear weapons present such a threat for mass destruction.
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chewybrian
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Re: Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

Post by chewybrian »

GE Morton wrote: February 28th, 2022, 3:09 pm
Atla wrote: February 27th, 2022, 12:07 pm Or maybe after 20 years of being unable to stop the advancement of NATO, Putin finally snapped.
That is an important, perhaps the crucial, point.

Russia and the Ukraine have a long, though often uneasy, relationship. The Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire through the 18th-19th centuries, and one of the founding republics of the USSR in 1922. The Ukraine was the latter's agricultural "breadbasket."

Western politicians should have been a bit more circumspect in encroaching upon territory long regarded by Russia as being within its sphere of influence.
Calling Ukraine the "breadbasket" of Russia or the USSR is like calling a liquor store which you robbed your "liquor cabinet" or "safety deposit box". Russia starved the people in Ukraine while it took their wheat from them! They have no more claim to Ukraine than Great Britain has to India right now. We would have no duty to be circumspect if Great Britain had designs on re-taking India, and we have no such duty to watch our steps regarding Russia and Ukraine. Seldom are issues of politics as clear-cut as many of us would like them to be. This, however, is no gray area.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
Atla
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Re: Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Atla »

chewybrian wrote: March 6th, 2022, 8:47 am Calling Ukraine the "breadbasket" of Russia or the USSR is like calling a liquor store which you robbed your "liquor cabinet" or "safety deposit box". Russia starved the people in Ukraine while it took their wheat from them! They have no more claim to Ukraine than Great Britain has to India right now. We would have no duty to be circumspect if Great Britain had designs on re-taking India, and we have no such duty to watch our steps regarding Russia and Ukraine. Seldom are issues of politics as clear-cut as many of us would like them to be. This, however, is no gray area.
Exactly. How many Ukrainians did Stalin kill to free up space in Ukraine so that Russians can settle in? 4 million dead? And in the USSR the Russians occupied those European countries for half a century by force, and now some people think it was a happy union of countries who felt that they belonged together?

What's this attitude anyway that some people have about "satisfying" Putin and having a "give and take" with Russia. If people want to satisfy Putin, they should give him Alaska or something, leave Eastern Europe out of it already, people have suffered enough.
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GE Morton
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Re: Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

Post by GE Morton »

Sy Borg wrote: March 6th, 2022, 5:19 am Very sorry GE! I clicked the edit rather than the quote button.

There are parts of your post I can piece back together from the above, but some is lost unless you can remember it and I can edit it back in.

Sorry again for losing your thoughts, which I largely agreed with BTW. Will avoid posting before coffee from now on to avoid similar mindless mistakes.
No great loss, but that link reporting the West's perceived assurances to Yeltsin re: NATO is worth reading, for those interested in this issue:

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book ... tsin-heard
GE Morton
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Re: Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

Post by GE Morton »

chewybrian wrote: March 6th, 2022, 8:47 am
Calling Ukraine the "breadbasket" of Russia or the USSR is like calling a liquor store which you robbed your "liquor cabinet" or "safety deposit box". Russia starved the people in Ukraine while it took their wheat from them!
You're probably referring to Lenin and Stalin's campaign against the Kulaks in 1917-1921, and the subsequent famine. That was genocide, but had support of elements within Ukraine. There has always been pro-independence and pro-Russian sentiments among Ukrainians. (The war on Kulaks targeted not only Ukrainian kulaks, but those throughout the USSR).
They have no more claim to Ukraine than Great Britain has to India right now.
Oh, I agree they have no claim to it. But they do have a legitimate concern about being surrounding by a military alliance they perceive as hostile, and what they consider a betrayal of the West's assurances on that issue. See the link above.
GE Morton
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Re: Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

Post by GE Morton »

GE Morton wrote: March 5th, 2022, 10:05 pm
What are the policies that you think have most driven the US's relatively high levels of inequality?
Economic inequalities in the US are not driven by any government policies. They are endemic in any animal population. They are greater in the US than in some other countries because the US has more ethnic and cultural diversity than most European countries, and because the US government historically did not view mitigating it to be within its constitutional obligations or powers.
Ecurb
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Re: Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Ecurb »

GE Morton wrote: March 6th, 2022, 1:10 pm
GE Morton wrote: March 5th, 2022, 10:05 pm
What are the policies that you think have most driven the US's relatively high levels of inequality?
Economic inequalities in the US are not driven by any government policies. They are endemic in any animal population. They are greater in the US than in some other countries because the US has more ethnic and cultural diversity than most European countries, and because the US government historically did not view mitigating it to be within its constitutional obligations or powers.
Relative to whom? The U.S. is not one of the 30 most unequal countries in the world in either wealth or income inequality, acc. these stats: https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country

It is true that we are less equal that any European country -- but not by very much. The difference between the U.S. and many of our (more unequal) Western Hemisphere neighbors is far greater than that between the U.S. and Italy or the U.K.

Also, for all the bad-mouthing of the U.S. for invading Iraq (well deserved, by the way), weren't Australia and the U.K. our allies in that war? Why are all of you Aussies and Brits slamming us? Look to your own house!

One more thing: where is the Light Brigade when we need them?
GE Morton
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Re: Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

Post by GE Morton »

Ecurb wrote: March 6th, 2022, 1:34 pm
It is true that we are less equal that any European country -- but not by very much. The difference between the U.S. and many of our (more unequal) Western Hemisphere neighbors is far greater than that between the U.S. and Italy or the U.K.
This ubiquitous whining about economic inequality is tedious, a phony bugaboo contrived by the Left to illustrate the "evils of capitalism."

A free economy is bound to be unequal, because people are unequal --- in the skills, talents, interests, ambitions, and attitudes that create wealth. It is a perfectly natural outcome of those inherent inequalities, and there is nothing evil, or even remarkable, about it.
AverageBozo
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Re: Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

Post by AverageBozo »

GE Morton wrote: March 6th, 2022, 2:34 pm
Ecurb wrote: March 6th, 2022, 1:34 pm
It is true that we are less equal that any European country -- but not by very much. The difference between the U.S. and many of our (more unequal) Western Hemisphere neighbors is far greater than that between the U.S. and Italy or the U.K.
This ubiquitous whining about economic inequality is tedious, a phony bugaboo contrived by the Left to illustrate the "evils of capitalism."

A free economy is bound to be unequal, because people are unequal --- in the skills, talents, interests, ambitions, and attitudes that create wealth. It is a perfectly natural outcome of those inherent inequalities, and there is nothing evil, or even remarkable, about it.
I agree, however I wonder what skills the top percentile has that the next doesn’t have. Perhaps the differentiation of skills lies along a continuum, making the differences imperceptible. Perhaps the differences are a matter of degree, not kind.

Your thoughts?
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Sy Borg
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Re: Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Sy Borg »

Thanks for your understanding, GE. I have just had a strong cup of tea, which will hopefully provide sufficient fuel to avoid similar lost posts. Pretty embarrassing.
JackDaydream wrote: March 6th, 2022, 7:13 am
Sy Borg wrote: March 6th, 2022, 5:19 am Very sorry GE! I clicked the edit rather than the quote button.

There are parts of your post I can piece back together from the above, but some is lost unless you can remember it and I can edit it back in.

Sorry again for losing your thoughts, which I largely agreed with BTW. Will avoid posting before coffee from now on to avoid similar mindless mistakes.
What is interesting here is that from what I have heard and read is that it would only take someone operating nuclear weapons to press a wrong button to cause nuclear devastation by accident. So, let's hope that whoever is responding to Putin and others to make sure they have plenty of coffee. Apparently, there has been near misses in the past. It has always been a problem that mass annihilation has been possible at the touch of a switch. it may only now with the current political crisis of Ukraine that many people will really think about the way in which nuclear weapons present such a threat for mass destruction.
Spare us from blundering bureaucrats! :wink:

I'm hoping that the Ukraine project hobbles Russia as the Iraq mess neutered American power. I am not sure the secular people of Ukraine will have the same drive to thwart Russia over decades as ideological Iraqis did to America, though.
AverageBozo
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Re: Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

Post by AverageBozo »

As a mind experiment, let’s say that Cuba is an independent communist nation. By international treaty, Cuba has stated that it will never align with or rely on Russia for its national defense.

Let’s say that it becomes apparent that Russia wants Cuba to join Russia for purposes of military coordination. By doing so, Cuba would be added to the world’s communist landscape and move from being an independent neutral country to becoming a threat to the U.S.

How would you expect the Americans to react?
Ecurb
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Re: Misconceptions of Putin's Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Ecurb »

AverageBozo wrote: March 6th, 2022, 3:21 pm
GE Morton wrote: March 6th, 2022, 2:34 pm
Ecurb wrote: March 6th, 2022, 1:34 pm
It is true that we are less equal that any European country -- but not by very much. The difference between the U.S. and many of our (more unequal) Western Hemisphere neighbors is far greater than that between the U.S. and Italy or the U.K.
This ubiquitous whining about economic inequality is tedious, a phony bugaboo contrived by the Left to illustrate the "evils of capitalism."

A free economy is bound to be unequal, because people are unequal --- in the skills, talents, interests, ambitions, and attitudes that create wealth. It is a perfectly natural outcome of those inherent inequalities, and there is nothing evil, or even remarkable, about it.
I agree, however I wonder what skills the top percentile has that the next doesn’t have. Perhaps the differentiation of skills lies along a continuum, making the differences imperceptible. Perhaps the differences are a matter of degree, not kind.

Your thoughts?
We're getting off topic here, but I think it's irrelevant whether the wealthy are more skilled, harder working, or more ambitious than the rest of us. Who cares? The important thing is to charitably guarantee food and shelter for everyone (since we can afford it, and since it makes society better for us all). Of course this might mean taxing the rich -- you can't get blood from a turnip -- but I wouldn't do that to diminish inequality, but to get needed money from the most reasonable source.

For all the talk of the Russian oligarchy and kleptocracy, the U.S. is more "unequal" than Russia (acc. these stats; I have no idea how they are derived.)
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