Democracy and tyranny. Is there a middle ground?

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Sy Borg
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Re: Democracy and tyranny. Is there a middle ground?

Post by Sy Borg »

GE Morton wrote: May 24th, 2022, 7:29 pm
5. If you use measurability to determine whether issues warrant the intervention of the state, how would you measure the trauma of a young adult after being molested in childhood? Historical abuse, be it children or adults, would be legal in your model.
You don't need to measure that. Child molestation is illegal prima facie. Moreover, how traumatic that is depends on the details, and even more on the individual. You don't need to measure how traumatic a rape or armed robbery is, either, and that is not a factor in determining whether an accused is guilty of them. All those things can can have lasting consequences for some; others put them behind them quickly and get on with their lives.
Why would child molesting be illegal in your system but sexist or homophobic bullying would be legal?

Neither can be measured without fresh DNA samples, which would be exceedingly unlikely in child abuse cases.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Democracy and tyranny. Is there a middle ground?

Post by Sy Borg »

GE Morton wrote: May 24th, 2022, 7:29 pm
6. The point is that your version of libertarianism is incoherent in a range of areas, this being just one. You likewise have no answer to the issue of a non-taxing government gaining revenue to fund the military, police, courts and lawyers, prison complexes, not to mention project management, administration and financial management.
And another false attribution. I've never proposed a "non-taxing government," and given the extent of our previous discussions of taxes, you very well know that.
Thus, your libertarianism favours a dominant, monolithic government that takes money from its citizens by force to fund powerful military and police forces, with plentiful courts and prison systems to cope with the chaos, with all other functions being privately owned. No public health. No public legal resources. No unemployment benefits. No age pension. No disability benefits.

No public wildlife areas. No heritage protection. All roads would be private and tolled. Schools, universities, retailers and workplaces would refuse people on the basis of race, sexuality, gender etc. There would be no nationwide utilities so the country's communications, electricity and water would be in private hands (perhaps US telecommunications could be owned by China?).

Such a society can only crumble under its own hubris, rather like your arguments on the forum.
Ecurb
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Re: Democracy and tyranny. Is there a middle ground?

Post by Ecurb »

GE Morton wrote: May 24th, 2022, 12:29 pm

Well, you just seem to be ignoring the arguments previously made. Property laws --- most of them, in the common law tradition --- are not "artificially instituted." They have a clear and compelling moral basis. You're also ignoring the implications of the reductio ad absurdum concerning lost opportunities. The "opportunities" you imagine cannot be seized, which is absurd.
I haven't ignored your arguments. I disagree, and since I've explained why many times, I needn't do it again.
Well, no. An absurd scenario is not a reductio ad absurdum argument. The latter is an argument showing that a proposition, plausible on its face, leads to absurdities when applied consistently.
What are you talking about? The logical consequences of property rights are (or could be) exactly the scenario I proposed. I correctly called it a reduction ad absurdum.
Oh, surely you can recognize a difference between those. Yes, a customer is a "partner," in a sense --- someone with whom one intentionally enters into a relationship pursuant to mutual or complementary interests.
That is true, of course. And it is reasonable for the legal system (which, after all, regulates the entire economy through, among other things, property law) to regulate economic relationships distinctly from social ones.


Well, whether a purported right is a "fiat right" is not a matter of opinion. The latter is a legal right which has no basis other than the whim of some lawgiver. Property rights (as understood in the liberal and common law traditions) have an objective and morally defensible basis, which precedes any laws. And, in fact, they don't vary much from culture to culture. What may count as private property (as opposed to communal property) varies somewhat, but the first possession principle determines ownership nearly everywhere, for personal/private as well as communal property. Notions such as "Our ancestral lands" rest upon that principle.
My grandson, (First grade, in public school in Portland, OR) engages in a ritual "land acknowledgement" pledge. It has, apparently, replaced the Pledge of Alliegance. I wish I had a copy, because, althought he recited it for me, I can't remember the exact words. But it goes on about thanking the Multnomah and Clackamas Indians for the Land surrounding Portlands. "They lived here peacefully for tens of thousands of years..." is the part I remmeber, or something close to it. It's ridiculous First, the Natives were not peaceable, and secomd.they didn't live there for "tens of thousands of years". In fact, they probably usurped the land themselves, from whoever lived their previously. I mention this because property exists only in as much as it can be enforced. "First Possession" means nothing, unless it can be protected. All those castles in Europe testify to this reality. Raiding was once considered a respectable occupation.

IN modern America, the property rights are protected by the state. Great! We don't need all those castles and private sstanding armies. But property rights are simply those that the state chooses to legislate and protect. If the state chooses to honor "first possession" -- so be it. But it's nonsense to suggest that because common law -- from the days of slavery -- defines ownership that way, we must do the same.
GE Morton
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Re: Democracy and tyranny. Is there a middle ground?

Post by GE Morton »

Sy Borg wrote: May 24th, 2022, 7:42 pm
You insist on your right to out transpeople publicly by using their old pronouns, who may only be known as a woman or man to those listening. You 100% do NOT have a right to out queer people. Some advocate of freedom, you are. You refuse transpeople to right to get on with their lives, insisting that you can casually derail their personal and professional lives just to prove a point.
I thought you said comments re: "transpeople" were off-topic would be deleted from thread?

But, yes, I do have the right to "out" queer people. That would fall squarely under the right of free speech. It might not be the kind thing to do in many cases, but there is certainly a right to do it. The right of free speech covers insulting speech, embarrassing speech, "politically incorrect" speech, and even "hate speech." Free speech is not confined to kind, complimentary, soothing or "affirming" speech.
Your comments about "delusions" are about half a century out of date. If you can't bother researching, you are unworthy of interaction.
Er, no. I gave the definition of "delusion" in a previous thread. That definition was drawn from a current dictionary. The meaning of that word has not changed in at least the last 300 years, and that some are unwilling to use it because it has unflattering connotations does not change its meaning, nor have the facts which render propositions asserting it true.
GE Morton
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Re: Democracy and tyranny. Is there a middle ground?

Post by GE Morton »

GE Morton wrote: May 24th, 2022, 10:44 pm
Er, no. I gave the definition of "delusion" in a previous thread.

Incorrect. It was in a previous comment in this thread.
GE Morton
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Re: Democracy and tyranny. Is there a middle ground?

Post by GE Morton »

Sy Borg wrote: May 24th, 2022, 8:17 pm
Your version of libertarianism is a ridiculous, childish ideology that ignores history, social dynamics, economics, logic and ethics. It is utterly incoherent to the point of delusion.

Well, that is a nice string of ad hominems and baseless claims, but it is spectacularly devoid of any actual refutations of anything I've said.

There are countless ways to cause harm, and many are measurable, but you limit the state's intervention to society to policing just these few basic areas. For example, what about unregulated:

- killing animals
- killing trees
- loud parties and music late at night
- littering
- unregulated dumping toxic chemicals in creeks and rivers
- arson in wilderness areas
- destroying public property (no moral agents were harmed)
- traffic rules
- bullying and harassment without physical contact
All of those, except perhaps killing trees, cause measurable harms, and are illegal in most jurisdictions. Do you want me to go through them one-by-one? "Destroying public property" certainly does cause harm to moral agents, namely the citizens and taxpayers who lose the benefits that property affords them and for which they have paid, and the costs to repair or replace it. The only difference between destroying public property and private property is that the losses fall on more people.
How far will your regulatory scope increase when you realise that many government functions that you decry make for a better society overall.
That depends on what you consider to be a "better society overall." Every tyrant and ideologue who ever lived --- from Plato to Caesar to the medieval popes to Torquemada to Marx to Lenin to Mussolini and Hitler to Kim Jong-un has claimed the Utopias they envisioned were "better societies overall."
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Sy Borg
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Re: Democracy and tyranny. Is there a middle ground?

Post by Sy Borg »

GE Morton, your obsessive attitude towards transpeople strikes me as unhealthy. Demanding the right to destroy people's careers and relationships by freely revealing their confidential information for no good reason is unambiguously psychopathic behaviour.

Whatever, any discussion about how to order a society has been derailed by your fixation on doing nasty things to transsexuals, so the thread will be locked and I will start a new one.

GE Morton wrote: May 24th, 2022, 11:16 pm
Sy Borg wrote: May 24th, 2022, 8:17 pm
Your version of libertarianism is a ridiculous, childish ideology that ignores history, social dynamics, economics, logic and ethics. It is utterly incoherent to the point of delusion.

Well, that is a nice string of ad hominems and baseless claims, but it is spectacularly devoid of any actual refutations of anything I've said.

There are countless ways to cause harm, and many are measurable, but you limit the state's intervention to society to policing just these few basic areas. For example, what about unregulated:

- killing animals
- killing trees
- loud parties and music late at night
- littering
- unregulated dumping toxic chemicals in creeks and rivers
- arson in wilderness areas
- destroying public property (no moral agents were harmed)
- traffic rules
- bullying and harassment without physical contact
All of those, except perhaps killing trees, cause measurable harms, and are illegal in most jurisdictions. Do you want me to go through them one-by-one? "Destroying public property" certainly does cause harm to moral agents, namely the citizens and taxpayers who lose the benefits that property affords them and for which they have paid, and the costs to repair or replace it. The only difference between destroying public property and private property is that the losses fall on more people.
How far will your regulatory scope increase when you realise that many government functions that you decry make for a better society overall.
That depends on what you consider to be a "better society overall." Every tyrant and ideologue who ever lived --- from Plato to Caesar to the medieval popes to Torquemada to Marx to Lenin to Mussolini and Hitler to Kim Jong-un has claimed the Utopias they envisioned were "better societies overall."
We were not talking about "most jurisdictions" because you are a libertarian and reject those systems, remember?

On most metrics relevant to the wellbeing of the populace, the US lags far behind other western nations. The information is easily accessible online.
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