Democracy and tyranny. Is there a middle ground?

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Sy Borg
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Democracy and tyranny. Is there a middle ground?

Post by Sy Borg »

Australia's spy chief is worried democracy is bending toward tyranny. It's a struggle that will define the 21st century
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-15/ ... /101065102

Forum member, Lucky, said something to me the other day that was obvious enough, yet is inevitably glossed over, perhaps due to political correctness.

He pointed out that educated people have fewer children, which means populations are ever more selected to be ignorant. That is, with each generation, there will be vastly more children of uneducated people than of educated people. Thus, each election will involve ever more people who quite simply do not know enough to make an informed opinion, voting with emotions, based on looks or demeanour, unaware of the differing functions and powers of federal and state jurisdictions, etc.

Democracy only makes sense when most of the population actually understands the issues enough to effectively even vote in their self-interest, rather than being taken in by smooth lies, unsupported claims, slogans, showmanship and swagger.

If democracy defends itself by sidelining the especially ignorant, how can it avoid the extreme censorship and intrusive control of dictatorships in Asia, the Middle East and Africa, where telling obvious truths? eg. even acknowledging the CCP's mass slaughter of innocents in Tiananmen Square can lead to severe punishments.

Are there any current governance models that show promise?

So, how can democracy (realistically) be saved and, if not, how can democracies avoid descent into the short-sighted stupidity, denial of obvious reality and extreme kleptocracy of toxic systems of government in China, Russia and NK?
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Re: Democracy and tyranny. Is there a middle ground?

Post by Robert66 »

This is a fascinating and wicked problem. Unfortunately the solutions tend to fall into a category which could be labelled Impossible. I will outline a few:

- Educate the uneducated. This would require massive increases in spending on public schools, which aint likely to happen. Western kleptocracies, characterised by their penchant for treating public money as their own private stash, benefit by starving the public education sector of necessary funding. For them it is a win-win: spend less on the sector, and enjoy the voting outcome - less educated, more gullible voters.

-Reverse the decline in union membership. Few industries or sectors retain strong unions, but those which do are the almost the only ones in which workers ever get a pay rise. Restoring the power of unions is linked, ultimately, to improving education outcomes, because workers receiving better incomes means workers with more choices in educating their children. Low income workers must settle for whatever public education is on offer.

-Multi-member electorates. Rather than many, relatively small electorates, represented by a single member of parliament (who may have received just 30% of the primary vote), we would be better served by fewer, and larger electorates represented by 6 or 8 MPs. This would result in a system which better matches the voting will of the people. Eg the 15-20% who vote for green parties would likely get a seat at the table, which tends not to be the case currently. Unfortunately getting this change to happen would be like getting turkeys to vote for Christmas. Multi member electorates do exist however (only in better educated places like Germany).

Putting on my optimist's hat (which I had to find and dust off) I would say that the declining living standards for so many, in nations which were once much more egalitarian - where the gap between rich and poor was once much smaller - will render the poor more receptive to the benefits of union membership. These are simple really: be part of a strong union, and benefit from wage rises to keep pace with inflation, as well as improvements to working conditions.

Oh, and a rethink about taxation is in order if we are to address this wicked problem. I will probably open myself up to a barrage of criticism, yet I believe that the wise allocation of a modestly increased tax revenue could do a lot to help with the increasingly dire situation faced by so many of our fellow citizens.
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Re: Democracy and tyranny. Is there a middle ground?

Post by LuckyR »

Sy Borg wrote: May 14th, 2022, 11:32 pm
Australia's spy chief is worried democracy is bending toward tyranny. It's a struggle that will define the 21st century
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-15/ ... /101065102

Forum member, Lucky, said something to me the other day that was obvious enough, yet is inevitably glossed over, perhaps due to political correctness.

He pointed out that educated people have fewer children, which means populations are ever more selected to be ignorant. That is, with each generation, there will be vastly more children of uneducated people than of educated people. Thus, each election will involve ever more people who quite simply do not know enough to make an informed opinion, voting with emotions, based on looks or demeanour, unaware of the differing functions and powers of federal and state jurisdictions, etc.

Democracy only makes sense when most of the population actually understands the issues enough to effectively even vote in their self-interest, rather than being taken in by smooth lies, unsupported claims, slogans, showmanship and swagger.

If democracy defends itself by sidelining the especially ignorant, how can it avoid the extreme censorship and intrusive control of dictatorships in Asia, the Middle East and Africa, where telling obvious truths? eg. even acknowledging the CCP's mass slaughter of innocents in Tiananmen Square can lead to severe punishments.

Are there any current governance models that show promise?

So, how can democracy (realistically) be saved and, if not, how can democracies avoid descent into the short-sighted stupidity, denial of obvious reality and extreme kleptocracy of toxic systems of government in China, Russia and NK?
Hey, thanks for the shout out, but perhaps I made my original point (though accurate enough) take on inappropriate and broader than relevant implications.

So while I agree with your concern about the future, I believe that it has other, more powerful causes.

Some further ideas.

First, there is clearly not a direct correlation between educational level and genetically passed native intelligence.

Second, higher education access is growing faster than the decline in fecundity observed in the educated.

Third, the source IMO of your observation, while always present at a lower level, has recently been hugely accelerated by online "journalism" and social media. Basically the ability to drown out fact based, relatively unbiased stories with carefully crafted stories specifically created to sway voters to vote against their economic best interest, with the pressing of a keystroke, stacks the deck such that a numerically tiny number of powerful and wealthy people can command a statistical majority of votes. In the past, not everyone read newspapers and the total number of newspapers was small. A few on the right and a few on the left. It was basically a tie. Now essentially everyone is online and consuming "news" online is much more common than any other source.

It is really quite simple to detect poor as well as high quality information sources. However, just as it is simple to detect that emails from Nigerian princes are scams, there are a significant minority of consumers of online content who are so excited to tap into sources that agree with their worldview, that they don't question the accuracy of the content.
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Re: Democracy and tyranny. Is there a middle ground?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Sy Borg wrote: May 14th, 2022, 11:32 pm Educated people have fewer children, which means populations are ever more selected to be ignorant. That is, with each generation, there will be vastly more children of uneducated people than of educated people.
As well as what has already been said, with which I generally agree, this approach bothers me. This is because in the USA, the non-white section of the electorate will very soon outnumber the white former-majority. A similar thing is happening in the UK's Northern Ireland, where the republican (Catholic) movement is also coming to outnumber the former unionist (Protestant) majority. The old school factions that are being displaced will not go quietly. ... And they will (ab)use arguments like this to justify their more and more extreme responses to losing their leadership role.

Maybe it's unreasonable of me to focus in this way, but I can see it might raise problems... 🤔
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Re: Democracy and tyranny. Is there a middle ground?

Post by Sy Borg »

Robert66 wrote: May 15th, 2022, 1:04 am This is a fascinating and wicked problem. Unfortunately the solutions tend to fall into a category which could be labelled Impossible. I will outline a few:

- Educate the uneducated. This would require massive increases in spending on public schools, which aint likely to happen. Western kleptocracies, characterised by their penchant for treating public money as their own private stash, benefit by starving the public education sector of necessary funding. For them it is a win-win: spend less on the sector, and enjoy the voting outcome - less educated, more gullible voters.
I think there should be a test to see whether citizens are capable of making an informed vote. At this stage, thousands of intelligent, educated teenagers are denied the vote while thoroughly ignorant adults have as much of a vote as anyone else.

If a person is denied the vote, there's nothing to stop them actually trying to learn what's going on - at least which the relevant policy areas of each jurisdiction - and reinstate their voting rights.

Of course, those with a vested interest in increasing the supply of "less educated, gullible voters", will block these measures, because they are the same people seeking to turn western democracies into autocracies.
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Re: Democracy and tyranny. Is there a middle ground?

Post by UniversalAlien »

Sy Borg wrote: May 15th, 2022, 8:59 pm
Robert66 wrote: May 15th, 2022, 1:04 am This is a fascinating and wicked problem. Unfortunately the solutions tend to fall into a category which could be labelled Impossible. I will outline a few:

- Educate the uneducated. This would require massive increases in spending on public schools, which aint likely to happen. Western kleptocracies, characterised by their penchant for treating public money as their own private stash, benefit by starving the public education sector of necessary funding. For them it is a win-win: spend less on the sector, and enjoy the voting outcome - less educated, more gullible voters.
I think there should be a test to see whether citizens are capable of making an informed vote. At this stage, thousands of intelligent, educated teenagers are denied the vote while thoroughly ignorant adults have as much of a vote as anyone else.

If a person is denied the vote, there's nothing to stop them actually trying to learn what's going on - at least which the relevant policy areas of each jurisdiction - and reinstate their voting rights.

Of course, those with a vested interest in increasing the supply of "less educated, gullible voters", will block these measures, because they are the same people seeking to turn western democracies into autocracies.

This is how the 'White' South kept black people from voting - Kept blacks under 'Jim Crow' suppression in the South:
Jim Crow was the name of the racial caste system which operated primarily, but not exclusively in southern and border states, between 1877 and the mid-1960s. Jim Crow was more than a series of rigid anti-black laws. It was a way of life. Under Jim Crow, African Americans were relegated to the status of second class citizens. Jim Crow represented the legitimization of anti-black racism. Many Christian ministers and theologians taught that whites were the Chosen people, blacks were cursed to be servants, and God supported racial segregation. Craniologists, eugenicists, phrenologists, and Social Darwinists, at every educational level, buttressed the belief that blacks were innately intellectually and culturally inferior to whites. Pro-segregation politicians gave eloquent speeches on the great danger of integration: the mongrelization of the white race. Newspaper and magazine writers routinely referred to blacks as ******, coons, and darkies; and worse, their articles reinforced anti-black stereotypes. Even children's games portrayed blacks as inferior beings (see "From Hostility to Reverence: 100 Years of African-American Imagery in Games"). All major societal institutions reflected and supported the oppression of blacks.

Colored Served in Rear

The Jim Crow system was undergirded by the following beliefs or rationalizations: whites were superior to blacks in all important ways, including but not limited to intelligence, morality, and civilized........
https://www.ferris.edu/HTMLS/news/jimcrow/what.htm

Of course today's Republican Party is trying set this up again,
Conservatives don't believe in equality not of the races or the sexes as you can see them stealing women's rights as well.
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Re: Democracy and tyranny. Is there a middle ground?

Post by heracleitos »

Sy Borg wrote: May 14th, 2022, 11:32 pm He pointed out that educated people have fewer children, which means populations are ever more selected to be ignorant. That is, with each generation, there will be vastly more children of uneducated people than of educated people.
We may confuse "education" with "schooling" here.

More schooling does not mean more education. More schooling is probably more correlated to more debt and more financial distress. More schooling is certainly correlated to more indoctrination.

If schooling is detrimental to sexual reproduction, which I certainly believe it is, then such outcome is a tremendous indictment against the school system. In that case, the public school is an evolutionary dead end. Overschooling then leads to Darwinian elimination.

So, is the system not working?

No, on the contrary, it is.

In fact, the Darwinian system is working exactly as intended.
Sy Borg wrote: May 14th, 2022, 11:32 pm Democracy only makes sense when ...
According to Nassim Taleb's "The most intolerant wins. Dictatorship of a small minority.", society is not even meant to be governed by a majority.

Most people do not choose. Most people find themselves renormalized whether they like it or not. For various reasons, their opinion does not matter, and will never matter.

Hence, democracy has always been a deceptive and manipulative lie.

In fact, I am not against democracy. However, I am also not against its collapse. The real question is rather how you can make money, or gain other benefits, from the thing crashing and burning?
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Re: Democracy and tyranny. Is there a middle ground?

Post by Sy Borg »

heracleitos wrote: May 16th, 2022, 12:54 am
Sy Borg wrote: May 14th, 2022, 11:32 pm He pointed out that educated people have fewer children, which means populations are ever more selected to be ignorant. That is, with each generation, there will be vastly more children of uneducated people than of educated people.
We may confuse "education" with "schooling" here.

More schooling does not mean more education. More schooling is probably more correlated to more debt and more financial distress. More schooling is certainly correlated to more indoctrination.

If schooling is detrimental to sexual reproduction, which I certainly believe it is, then such outcome is a tremendous indictment against the school system. In that case, the public school is an evolutionary dead end. Overschooling then leads to Darwinian elimination.

So, is the system not working?

No, on the contrary, it is.

In fact, the Darwinian system is working exactly as intended.
The mass pedagogic education systems from which I emerged, that are still largely in play, have proved to be inadequate for task.

I appreciate that you ignored the issues I raised with your adoption of Islam's mindless primitivism, such as when I raised the Taliban preventing women from gaining an education, preventing women from free movement and forcing the burqa.

So it's clear that you believe women should not be educated, lest they become less effective brood sows - chattel controlled by men. Thankfully, this is year 2022, not 1022.

Have fun celebrating the death of democracy and the rebirth of kleptocratic totalitarianism.
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Re: Democracy and tyranny. Is there a middle ground?

Post by Sy Borg »

UniversalAlien wrote: May 15th, 2022, 9:22 pm
Of course today's Republican Party is trying set this up again,
Conservatives don't believe in equality not of the races or the sexes as you can see them stealing women's rights as well.
Heracleitis's post above makes clear the kind of angles adopted by today's "conservatives" - who are ever less distinguishable from radical supporters of autocracies - closer to Putin than Biden.

The west may be ever more kleptocratic, but it has a long way to go to achieve the audacious levels of theft perpetrated on the people by autocracies. Putin is one of the richest men in the world. How does politician earn so much?

It seems difficult to find a middle ground between democracies and autocracies due to the inherently unstable nature of societies that seek personal freedoms for people. So, while the west has changed significantly in the last few decades, North Korea remains consistent. Dogma is consistent, and thus a recipe for stagnation, and so theocracies commit ever greater atrocities so as to maintain power. With God or Allah on their side, they justify any level of cruelty or injustice, as long as it is perpetrated on the non-religious.

Surely there's a better way.
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Re: Democracy and tyranny. Is there a middle ground?

Post by LuckyR »

heracleitos wrote: May 16th, 2022, 12:54 am
Sy Borg wrote: May 14th, 2022, 11:32 pm He pointed out that educated people have fewer children, which means populations are ever more selected to be ignorant. That is, with each generation, there will be vastly more children of uneducated people than of educated people.
We may confuse "education" with "schooling" here.

More schooling does not mean more education. More schooling is probably more correlated to more debt and more financial distress. More schooling is certainly correlated to more indoctrination.

If schooling is detrimental to sexual reproduction, which I certainly believe it is, then such outcome is a tremendous indictment against the school system. In that case, the public school is an evolutionary dead end. Overschooling then leads to Darwinian elimination.

So, is the system not working?

No, on the contrary, it is.

In fact, the Darwinian system is working exactly as intended.
Sy Borg wrote: May 14th, 2022, 11:32 pm Democracy only makes sense when ...
According to Nassim Taleb's "The most intolerant wins. Dictatorship of a small minority.", society is not even meant to be governed by a majority.

Most people do not choose. Most people find themselves renormalized whether they like it or not. For various reasons, their opinion does not matter, and will never matter.

Hence, democracy has always been a deceptive and manipulative lie.

In fact, I am not against democracy. However, I am also not against its collapse. The real question is rather how you can make money, or gain other benefits, from the thing crashing and burning?
Please "school" us on your thoughts on the difference between schooling and education that you are referring to. For example, give an example of education in the absence of "schooling".

I don't know what you mean by "detrimental to sexual reproduction", but in case you are unfamiliar with the actual situation, education of women leads to them making the decision to put off childrearing until they can actually afford the children they will have. Your phrasing sounds like you think education leads to infertility.
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Re: Democracy and tyranny. Is there a middle ground?

Post by Good_Egg »

LuckyR wrote: May 15th, 2022, 3:48 am First, there is clearly not a direct correlation between educational level and genetically passed native intelligence.
I think you'll find that the statistical correlation is quite high. Measuring intelligence in newborns is problematic, but in western societies, intelligence at the earliest age at which it can be meaningfully measured is quite a good statistical predictor of whether someone will complete degree-level education.

At the individual level, of course, there are all sorts of reasons why someone with the academic potential may not end up as a graduate. And maybe that's what you meant ?
Sy Borg wrote: May 14th, 2022, 11:32 pm Are there any current governance models that show promise?
Seems to me that what we used to have in the past is an in-between system where groups of educated people developed two alternatives which all voters then chose between.

That sort of democracy is less about the masses ruling, and more about a safeguard against any one small group becoming tyrannical.

In the future, the internet may be used to develop all sorts of creative schemes whereby individuals verify their understanding of the issues prior to submitting their preferred solutions, which then get averaged into a workable programme for government.

But the present is a mess. Internet access is not yet a universal right. We struggle with ways to identify ourselves to computers easily and reliably. Systems are unverifiably complex - how can we trust that whoever programmed the system isn't cheating ? We're deluged with information but lack trustworthy ways to filter out what's true and what's important.

In response there's what seems an increasing trend of voting for celebrities. With celebrity being increasingly managed in the attention economy of the online world.
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Re: Democracy and tyranny. Is there a middle ground?

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LuckyR wrote: May 16th, 2022, 3:23 am Please "school" us on your thoughts on the difference between schooling and education that you are referring to. For example, give an example of education in the absence of "schooling".
An apprenticeship or an internship is probably more useful for acquiring money-making skills. Historically, a father would teach his son. We switched to a government controlled school-based alternative around 150 years ago. There is no problem in the world that the government won't make worse.

Nowadays, schools teach mostly propaganda augmented by a very moderate amount of stale knowledge. It's got nothing to do with skills. But then again, there is nothing to fix, really. Let it just collapse.
LuckyR wrote: May 16th, 2022, 3:23 am I don't know what you mean by "detrimental to sexual reproduction", but in case you are unfamiliar with the actual situation, education of women leads to them making the decision to put off childrearing until they can actually afford the children they will have. Your phrasing sounds like you think education leads to infertility.
If you put off childrearing long enough, it effectively does lead to infertility. But then again, who even cares? Just like everyone else, I am not interested in solving the problem but only in making money from it.
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Re: Democracy and tyranny. Is there a middle ground?

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heracleitos wrote: May 16th, 2022, 6:21 amNowadays, schools teach mostly propaganda augmented by a very moderate amount of stale knowledge. It's got nothing to do with skills. But then again, there is nothing to fix, really. Let it just collapse.
So it can be replaced by the kind of a theocracy that you recommend?

Ditching school to return to familial education is a return to the Iron Age ideology you espouse.

Your answers are unsatisfactory to the question on this thread. The idea is to seek a middle ground, not to revert to primitive autocracy.
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Re: Democracy and tyranny. Is there a middle ground?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Sy Borg wrote: May 15th, 2022, 8:59 pm I think there should be a test to see whether citizens are capable of making an informed vote. At this stage, thousands of intelligent, educated teenagers are denied the vote while thoroughly ignorant adults have as much of a vote as anyone else.
Once you set out on this path, I think you're doomed. Once some citizens are considered worthy of a vote, and others not, you encounter the obvious question: who decides who is worthy? Slippery-slope time. All citizens do their duty, pay their taxes, and so on. That alone should entitle each and every one of them to their say, no matter how convinced you might be that they are unworthy to exercise this right. I'm sorry, but this particular strand of Elitism doesn't and won't fly.
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Re: Democracy and tyranny. Is there a middle ground?

Post by heracleitos »

Sy Borg wrote: May 16th, 2022, 7:06 am Ditching school to return to familial education is a return to the Iron Age ideology you espouse.
Everybody joins the consensus that he prefers. If you don't like Windows, then use Linux instead. I don't pay for other people's choices and I do not expect them to pay for mine either.

I already live exactly like I want. That is not a question of democracy but of self-sovereignty.

Tyranny does not work against a large enough and diehard enough consensus. The ruling mafia already stays at a safe distance from what we do, lest we deport them again from Kabul Airport.
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