Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

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Tegularius
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by Tegularius »

Putin made his intentions clear and the only way to beat a bully and asshole is to become one...and, good news for you, he'll probably win in the end because the main idiots in NATO, like Macron and Scholz including Biden are still far too wimpy in response even in the delivery of weapons Ukraine needs as a single force holding back the Russians. The withholding of grain upon which much of the world depends is a travesty, less by way of Putin from whom one would expect such a maneuver, but from the NATO countries themselves in not forcing a release. The West is a cowardly entity. Putin knows his enemies better than they know him. All he has to do is threaten, and we stand back terrified. It looks like the EU and NATO are not too far from falling apart internally which is to the complete advantage of Russia as a homogenous entity compared to all the miscellaneous nationalities, interests and dissensions inherent in NATO and its policies.

There is no further point in continuing this debate. If you want to be an apologist for Putin after everything he threatened, implied and explicitly expressed envisioning himself as a conquering version of Peter the Great, I'm confident Sergey Lavrov wouldn't mind having you as his assistant.
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Count Lucanor
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

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Tegularius wrote: June 11th, 2022, 6:12 pm There is no further point in continuing this debate. If you want to be an apologist for Putin after everything he threatened, implied and explicitly expressed envisioning himself as a conquering version of Peter the Great, I'm confident Sergey Lavrov wouldn't mind having you as his assistant.
I have not even attempted to defend Putin, but in the Manichean political world that you live, you require everyone to go along with your propagandist view that portrays some belligerent nations as innocent observers of other's actions and unobjectable crusaders of a moral cause. So, if one does not buy your pamphlet, one is an apologist against that crusade.
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by Tegularius »

Count Lucanor wrote: June 11th, 2022, 6:38 pm
Tegularius wrote: June 11th, 2022, 6:12 pm There is no further point in continuing this debate. If you want to be an apologist for Putin after everything he threatened, implied and explicitly expressed envisioning himself as a conquering version of Peter the Great, I'm confident Sergey Lavrov wouldn't mind having you as his assistant.
I have not even attempted to defend Putin, but in the Manichean political world that you live, you require everyone to go along with your propagandist view that portrays some belligerent nations as innocent observers of other's actions and unobjectable crusaders of a moral cause. So, if one does not buy your pamphlet, one is an apologist against that crusade.
Objecting to the Nazi style invasion of another country that caused no harm to the invader for whatever reason they use to justify it is what I object to.

Not NATO or the EU's actions but Putin's statement that Ukraine has no right to exist independent of Russia, is the REAL reason for this war while you just keep on harping that NATO and the US as its sole cause. It's long been known that Putin has an obsession with Ukraine considering it Russian territory; that, by his own words, he wants to regain lands that formerly belonged to the Soviet empire aspiring to a legacy in emulation of Peter the Great! But you don't acknowledge that in any way! Like I said, you would serve Lavrov exceptionally well!
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

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Tegularius wrote: June 11th, 2022, 8:19 pm Objecting to the Nazi style invasion of another country that caused no harm to the invader for whatever reason they use to justify it is what I object to.

Not NATO or the EU's actions but Putin's statement that Ukraine has no right to exist independent of Russia, is the REAL reason for this war while you just keep on harping that NATO and the US as its sole cause. It's long been known that Putin has an obsession with Ukraine considering it Russian territory; that, by his own words, he wants to regain lands that formerly belonged to the Soviet empire aspiring to a legacy in emulation of Peter the Great! But you don't acknowledge that in any way! Like I said, you would serve Lavrov exceptionally well!
This is the same caricature of political analysis that you have proclaimed since the beginning: the ambitious, mad, warmonger mr. Bad Guy against the innocent, non-belligerent, peaceful Ukrainians. It is exactly the same portrayal of the situation that is found in the propagandist view of the enemies of Russia, so you're basically reproducing their propaganda.

I reject such biased, distorted "analysis" and offered a more balanced, comprehensive one, which takes into account the historical factors and geopolitics, which can be summed up in the concept of Eurasianism. I mentioned the doctrines and strategic objectives that form the historical background to this conflict. I backed up my claims with references to Kissinger, Brzezinski, Mackinder, Kennan and Mearsheimer. Don't believe me when I say that Ukraine is another chess piece in the geopolitical chessboard played by the US and NATO, just listen to Brzezinski 25 years ago:
Ukraine, a new and important space on the Eurasian chessboard, is a geo-political pivot because its very existence as an independent country helps to transform Russia. Without Ukraine, Russia ceases to be a Eurasian empire.” Zbigniew Brzezinski, The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy and Its Geostrategic Imperatives, 1997, p.46.
And while I highlighted Western Eurasianism, I took care of also mentioning that "Russians are no fools, of course, and they have come up with their own version of Eurasianism, which includes a Russian version of the Monroe Doctrine..." Duguin is Putin's Brzezinski.

There is no good vs bad guys here. You might consider them all bad if you want to. There are superpowers fighting for dominance of Eurasia. One side pushed too much, it took its expansion strategy right up to that "geopolitical pivot" called Ukraine, at the border of its enemy, and the other side reacted. It was predictable.
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Tegularius
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by Tegularius »

Count Lucanor wrote: June 11th, 2022, 9:58 pm

There is no good vs bad guys here. You might consider them all bad if you want to. There are superpowers fighting for dominance of Eurasia. One side pushed too much, it took its expansion strategy right up to that "geopolitical pivot" called Ukraine, at the border of its enemy, and the other side reacted. It was predictable.
It's feared, with reason, that the territorial demands of Russia won't end with Ukraine, not according to Putin's Soviet style philosophy. On the other hand if they can't get Ukraine, it's unlikely they'll get any other part of Eastern Europe. Not just that, but as already apparent, unallied countries now seek alliance with NATO. No country once under the Soviet umbrella in any way wants to be there again! So yes, NATO's and the EU's reaction to Putin's invasion was very predictable. What was not predictable is the brutality of it. The Russian psyche remains more Mongolian than Western.
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

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Tegularius wrote: June 11th, 2022, 10:23 pm
Count Lucanor wrote: June 11th, 2022, 9:58 pm

There is no good vs bad guys here. You might consider them all bad if you want to. There are superpowers fighting for dominance of Eurasia. One side pushed too much, it took its expansion strategy right up to that "geopolitical pivot" called Ukraine, at the border of its enemy, and the other side reacted. It was predictable.
It's feared, with reason, that the territorial demands of Russia won't end with Ukraine, not according to Putin's Soviet style philosophy. On the other hand if they can't get Ukraine, it's unlikely they'll get any other part of Eastern Europe. Not just that, but as already apparent, unallied countries now seek alliance with NATO. No country once under the Soviet umbrella in any way wants to be there again! So yes, NATO's and the EU's reaction to Putin's invasion was very predictable. What was not predictable is the brutality of it. The Russian psyche remains more Mongolian than Western.
The problem is: you have the US and NATO with undeniable interest in the strategic position of Ukraine in the chessboard of Eurasian politics. That means that any political manouvers taking place in and around Ukraine has an effect in the relations of power between the US, NATO and Russia, especially if the US and NATO have taken part in such manouvers. Knowing that your actions will have an effect on your opponent, amounts to the same as provocation. Since that factor cannot be eliminated from the equation, one can hardly think of Russian actions as expansion initiatives. You could only argue that if the US and its NATO alliance were not belligerent actors in the geopolitical scene.
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

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Count Lucanor wrote: June 11th, 2022, 11:26 pm
Tegularius wrote: June 11th, 2022, 10:23 pm
Count Lucanor wrote: June 11th, 2022, 9:58 pm

There is no good vs bad guys here. You might consider them all bad if you want to. There are superpowers fighting for dominance of Eurasia. One side pushed too much, it took its expansion strategy right up to that "geopolitical pivot" called Ukraine, at the border of its enemy, and the other side reacted. It was predictable.
It's feared, with reason, that the territorial demands of Russia won't end with Ukraine, not according to Putin's Soviet style philosophy. On the other hand if they can't get Ukraine, it's unlikely they'll get any other part of Eastern Europe. Not just that, but as already apparent, unallied countries now seek alliance with NATO. No country once under the Soviet umbrella in any way wants to be there again! So yes, NATO's and the EU's reaction to Putin's invasion was very predictable. What was not predictable is the brutality of it. The Russian psyche remains more Mongolian than Western.
The problem is: you have the US and NATO with undeniable interest in the strategic position of Ukraine in the chessboard of Eurasian politics. That means that any political manouvers taking place in and around Ukraine has an effect in the relations of power between the US, NATO and Russia, especially if the US and NATO have taken part in such manouvers. Knowing that your actions will have an effect on your opponent, amounts to the same as provocation. Since that factor cannot be eliminated from the equation, one can hardly think of Russian actions as expansion initiatives. You could only argue that if the US and its NATO alliance were not belligerent actors in the geopolitical scene.
NO that is not the problem - That is an attempt to use rhetoric to mask what the problem is
- The problem is Russia is using by genocide 'a special military operation' to destroy not only a country but an ethnic group as well.

Again:
gen·o·cide
/ˈjenəˌsīd/
noun
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group
"a campaign of genocide"

Definition:
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Killing members of the group;
a. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
b. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
c. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
d. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Elements of the crime:
The Genocide Convention establishes in Article I that the crime of genocide may take place in the context of an armed conflict, international or non-international, but also in the context of a peaceful situation. The latter is less common but still possible. The same article establishes the obligation of the contracting parties to prevent and to punish the crime of genocide.

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

So say all you want about NATO and America's military operations over the years, some of which may be questionable in a moral sense
- But none could really be considered genocidal in nature; Be it Vietnam, Iraq, Syria or wherever - America never decided to
wipe-out a country by genocide - Russia has made such a decision and will pay the consequences - It stands to lose a lot more than it
might gain even if it succeeds.

Putn says he is going to de-nazify Ukraine :?: - This is only now possible if he takes his 'special military operation' out of Ukraine :!:
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

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UniversalAlien wrote: June 12th, 2022, 5:46 am
So say all you want about NATO and America's military operations over the years, some of which may be questionable in a moral sense
- But none could really be considered genocidal in nature; Be it Vietnam, Iraq, Syria or wherever - America never decided to
wipe-out a country by genocide - Russia has made such a decision and will pay the consequences - It stands to lose a lot more than it
might gain even if it succeeds.
I think that statement sums up the type of dishonesty and fanatism that motivates your posts here. So deny the obvious and demonize all your political opponents at your wish, but that will not change reality.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
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Tegularius
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by Tegularius »

Count Lucanor wrote: June 11th, 2022, 11:26 pm
Tegularius wrote: June 11th, 2022, 10:23 pm
Count Lucanor wrote: June 11th, 2022, 9:58 pm

There is no good vs bad guys here. You might consider them all bad if you want to. There are superpowers fighting for dominance of Eurasia. One side pushed too much, it took its expansion strategy right up to that "geopolitical pivot" called Ukraine, at the border of its enemy, and the other side reacted. It was predictable.
It's feared, with reason, that the territorial demands of Russia won't end with Ukraine, not according to Putin's Soviet style philosophy. On the other hand if they can't get Ukraine, it's unlikely they'll get any other part of Eastern Europe. Not just that, but as already apparent, unallied countries now seek alliance with NATO. No country once under the Soviet umbrella in any way wants to be there again! So yes, NATO's and the EU's reaction to Putin's invasion was very predictable. What was not predictable is the brutality of it. The Russian psyche remains more Mongolian than Western.
The problem is: you have the US and NATO with undeniable interest in the strategic position of Ukraine in the chessboard of Eurasian politics. That means that any political manouvers taking place in and around Ukraine has an effect in the relations of power between the US, NATO and Russia, especially if the US and NATO have taken part in such manouvers. Knowing that your actions will have an effect on your opponent, amounts to the same as provocation. Since that factor cannot be eliminated from the equation, one can hardly think of Russian actions as expansion initiatives. You could only argue that if the US and its NATO alliance were not belligerent actors in the geopolitical scene.
...not expansion per se but expansion to the size it once was or nearly so.

All politics is a chess game! Moving pieces around to checkmate the opponent is like chess itself, one of the oldest games around. It's one which will always be played especially between diplomats but when the rules are broken it may be the last game ever played. Nuclear retaliation is Putin's threat; the expansion to former boundaries, "taking back what they assume belongs to them" is Putin's threat. It didn't come from NATO or any part of the West. Anyone who threatens a nuclear response "if you get in my way" is clearly not going to refrain from utterly destroying other countries. In spite of the miseries caused by US policies and actions what is happening now by way of atrocity hasn't been done since Hitler...and it ain't over yet!

Who is the prime rule-breaker in this confrontation? Rhetorical question only since your conclusion is clear which Putin's own words and actions fail to endorse!

https://www.businessinsider.com/putin-s ... ale-2022-6

I don't expect the above in any way to revise your opinion but there's a big difference in insisting you're right and being right. It hardly ever fails to be the case that people will continue to insist regardless of opposing evidence.
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

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Tegularius wrote: June 12th, 2022, 4:07 pm All politics is a chess game! Moving pieces around to checkmate the opponent is like chess itself, one of the oldest games around. It's one which will always be played especially between diplomats but when the rules are broken it may be the last game ever played.
I'm betting on you not being so naive as to think Western powers operate by the rule of law. When they wanted to invade, they did. When they wanted to use the doctrine of preemptive strikes, they did so. When they wanted to use forbidden weapons, they did it. When they wanted to sacrifice the life of innocent civilians, they didn't hesitate. When they wanted to lie about it, they did it. When they wanted to torture prisoners, they did. When they wanted to pursue the whistleblowers of their war crimes, they did.
Tegularius wrote: June 12th, 2022, 4:07 pm In spite of the miseries caused by US policies and actions what is happening now by way of atrocity hasn't been done since Hitler...and it ain't over yet!
I can't believe someone could be so misinformed as to make such statement. I mean: we have close to a million civilian deaths in Iraq and less than 10K in Ukraine. You look at this, scratch your head, think for a while and then say: "Oh, Ukraine is the worst, nothing like that since Hitler. Iraq? Oh well, nothing unusual there." Epic.
Tegularius wrote: June 12th, 2022, 4:07 pm Who is the prime rule-breaker in this confrontation? Rhetorical question only since your conclusion is clear which Putin's own words and
It was not Putin expanding to the West that started all of this. The Euromaidan was already a step forward in the expansion of the West and its anti-Russian campaign. It was called by Mearshmeier back then.
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by Tegularius »

Ok, we're all assholes. Got it! But nothing the US or NATO did since Hitler approaches Putin's near attempt at genocide in the Ukraine and the possibility of nuclear war. The human race would hardly be a loss if it incinerated itself anyways. It's everything else I feel sorry for!
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

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Count Lucanor wrote: June 13th, 2022, 3:02 pm
I can't believe someone could be so misinformed as to make such statement. I mean: we have close to a million civilian deaths in Iraq and less than 10K in Ukraine. You look at this, scratch your head, think for a while and then say: "Oh, Ukraine is the worst, nothing like that since Hitler. Iraq? Oh well, nothing unusual there." Epic.
BTW, how did you get to a million deaths in Iraq? Easy to say, but where is the evidence and more importantly what were the causes if the number is accurate and not merely estimated which can be anything depending on who's doing the estimating?
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

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Tegularius wrote: June 13th, 2022, 4:29 pm Ok, we're all assholes. Got it!
"We"??? Doesn't that say it all? You cannot imagine not rooting for your team, right? I hope you realize that this has a name: it starts with "f" and ends with "m".
Tegularius wrote: June 13th, 2022, 4:29 pm But nothing the US or NATO did since Hitler approaches Putin's near attempt at genocide in the Ukraine and the possibility of nuclear war. The human race would hardly be a loss if it incinerated itself anyways. It's everything else I feel sorry for!
There's nothing particularly more brutal in this war than in any other recent wars. There are no "nice wars", and it has nothing to do with nationality or either side representing good or evil. Wars are brutal by definition, they represent the worst of mankind. You might start forgetting this after you have been bombarded for decades with propaganda movies from the militainment industry.
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

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Tegularius wrote: June 13th, 2022, 4:56 pm
Count Lucanor wrote: June 13th, 2022, 3:02 pm
I can't believe someone could be so misinformed as to make such statement. I mean: we have close to a million civilian deaths in Iraq and less than 10K in Ukraine. You look at this, scratch your head, think for a while and then say: "Oh, Ukraine is the worst, nothing like that since Hitler. Iraq? Oh well, nothing unusual there." Epic.
BTW, how did you get to a million deaths in Iraq? Easy to say, but where is the evidence and more importantly what were the causes if the number is accurate and not merely estimated which can be anything depending on who's doing the estimating?
There are estimates from the 1st gulf war between 100K and 200K, and between 90K and 650K in the 2nd invasion. That makes it around 200K for the lower estimate and close to a million for the highest estimate. All this the deaths of civilians only. In any case, if this doesn't amount to genocide, then you could hardly claim the less than 5K civilian deaths so far in Ukraine amount to genocide.
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

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Count Lucanor wrote: June 13th, 2022, 9:44 pm
Tegularius wrote: June 13th, 2022, 4:56 pm
Count Lucanor wrote: June 13th, 2022, 3:02 pm
I can't believe someone could be so misinformed as to make such statement. I mean: we have close to a million civilian deaths in Iraq and less than 10K in Ukraine. You look at this, scratch your head, think for a while and then say: "Oh, Ukraine is the worst, nothing like that since Hitler. Iraq? Oh well, nothing unusual there." Epic.
BTW, how did you get to a million deaths in Iraq? Easy to say, but where is the evidence and more importantly what were the causes if the number is accurate and not merely estimated which can be anything depending on who's doing the estimating?
There are estimates from the 1st gulf war between 100K and 200K, and between 90K and 650K in the 2nd invasion. That makes it around 200K for the lower estimate and close to a million for the highest estimate. All this the deaths of civilians only. In any case, if this doesn't amount to genocide, then you could hardly claim the less than 5K civilian deaths so far in Ukraine amount to genocide.
AND THE EVIDENCE FOR THESE NONSENSE NUMBERSS :?: The KGB :?: Or what do they call themselves now the FSB :?:

Here is the Russia I was taught to hate - The new Soviet empire of Vlad Putn returning to the World:

"How Many People Did Stalin Kill? Inside The Horrific Death Toll Of The Soviet Dictator"

By Kaleena Fraga | Checked By John Kuroski
Published May 13, 2022
Updated May 16, 2022
After taking power in the 1920s, Joseph Stalin killed at least 9 million people through mass murder, forced labor, and famine, but the true figure may be as high as 60 million.
From the 1920s through his death in 1953, Joseph Stalin ruled the Soviet Union through fear and violence. He instituted punitive policies that resulted in devastating famines, sent his enemies to prison camps, and executed those he believed opposed him. So, how many people did Stalin kill?

The number is difficult to determine. No neat and tidy sum encapsulates the terror of the Stalin years, which means that many historians have had to cobble together facts from available sources. But various estimates have emerged.
According to historians who studied Soviet archives before and after the fall of the Soviet Union, Joseph Stalin likely killed between six million and 20 million people. However, given the widespread and often unrecorded deaths of the Stalin years, it’s certainly possible that that number is even higher.
https://allthatsinteresting.com/how-man ... talin-kill


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