Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

[UniversalAlien]

LuckyR wrote:

My read of the phrase Ukraine should not exist, is less akin to the Palestinian opinion that Israel should not exist, meaning Palestine should exist in it's place. Rather more like China's opinion that Taiwan will not exist forever because it should be a part of greater China.

Good examples but the difference is, at least for now, rhetoric has not led to either all out war or genocide
- It is still conceivable that the Israel Palestinian conflict and Chinas claim to own Taiwan can be solved peaceably.

In Ukraine Russia said no - It would no longer bargain with Ukrainians and declared them, for want of a better term, non-persons.

Ukrainians must swear allegiance to Russia, or leave their homes and country or be destroyed.

The fact that peoples homes, the civilian infrastructure, and civilians themselves, are being bombed and killed marks this
'Special Military Operation' as genocide plain and simple.

The Ukrainians will not forget this and I will not forget this. For the first time in my life I see why my Russian grandfather, from an ethnic group historically sometimes persecuted by Russians came to this country {USA}.

Of course the US is not without sin - Some would consider the treatment of American Indians also to be a genocide.
- And of course we have the Chinese treating....."Human rights groups believe China has detained more than one million Uyghurs against their will over the past few years".

The Indians were a long time ago in America and the Chinese Uyghurs being 'rehabilitated' has reasons only the Chinese can answer.

But the Ukrainian genocide, in my opinion, is nothing more than a power grab with Putin from the old Soviet KGB
living in the past instead of looking to the future.

Putin is backing a losing position - And the thing to ask is how far will he go with this

Should we again start worrying about WWIII

[Pattern-chaser]

My read of the phrase Ukraine should not exist, is less akin to the Palestinian opinion that Israel should not exist, meaning Palestine should exist in it's place. Rather more like China's opinion that Taiwan will not exist forever because it should be a part of greater China.

In 1948, the UK, USA and UN took (!) part of Palestine, an existing and bona fide country, and gave it to Jewish terrorists to stop them bombing stuff. Naturally, the Palestinians objected, but no-one took any notice of them, then or now. The China Taiwan situation does seem to resemble the current Ukraine crisis better, although I know little of the history of Taiwan.

[Pattern-chaser]

LuckyR wrote:

My read of the phrase Ukraine should not exist, is less akin to the Palestinian opinion that Israel should not exist, meaning Palestine should exist in it's place. Rather more like China's opinion that Taiwan will not exist forever because it should be a part of greater China.

Good examples but the difference is, at least for now, rhetoric has not led to either all out war or genocide
- It is still conceivable that the Israel Palestinian conflict and Chinas claim to own Taiwan can be solved peaceably.

In Ukraine Russia said no - It would no longer bargain with Ukrainians and declared them, for want of a better term, non-persons.

Ukrainians must swear allegiance to Russia, or leave their homes and country or be destroyed.

The fact that peoples homes, the civilian infrastructure, and civilians themselves, are being bombed and killed marks this
'Special Military Operation' as genocide plain and simple.

The Ukrainians will not forget this and I will not forget this. For the first time in my life I see why my Russian grandfather, from an ethnic group historically sometimes persecuted by Russians came to this country {USA}.

Of course the US is not without sin - Some would consider the treatment of American Indians also to be a genocide.
- And of course we have the Chinese treating....."Human rights groups believe China has detained more than one million Uyghurs against their will over the past few years".

The Indians were a long time ago in America and the Chinese Uyghurs being 'rehabilitated' has reasons only the Chinese can answer.

But the Ukrainian genocide, in my opinion, is nothing more than a power grab with Putin from the old Soviet KGB
living in the past instead of looking to the future.

Putin is backing a losing position - And the thing to ask is how far will he go with this

Should we again start worrying about WWIII

Genocide, as you describe it, strongly resembles what some people call 'human nature'. It's certainly something humans have always striven to do, historically. Not all traditions should be retained, IMO...

[chewybrian]

I don't mean to say Bush was 100% correct and fully justified. I only say that *if* war is going to be considered justified under certain circumstances, then he seems to have checked all the boxes in that case.

Well, what's the difference between "having checked all the boxes" and "meaning to say Bush was 100% correct and fully justified".

I mean to say that I don't know when we could reasonably argue that a war is fully justified. I don't care to get behind the idea that war is an option to solve problems. Still, when you or your ally is attacked it does become an understandable response, rather than sitting idle and taking punishment or ultimately some kind of enslavement. I don't think you can fairly make a claim of genocide or war crime on the whole for Bush coming to defend Kuwait, since he only drove the aggressor out and stopped. There are some specific acts that might be called war crimes, though, like bombing the milk factory and claiming it was hiding chemical weapons.

Second only to an unprovoked invasion of your own country as a justification would seem to be an unprovoked invasion of your ally, all things equal (which they never are).

It can't be hardly argued that Russia's invasion was unprovoked. The response given by Russia to US and NATO's provocations might be questionable, but not the reality of the provocations themselves.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/ ... in-ukraine

I will withhold judgement and take a look at this when I have more time. I appreciate you taking the time to provide something to judge on its merits, as I literally could not search up sources on the claims you made.

[heracleitos]

In Ukraine Russia said no - It would no longer bargain with Ukrainians and declared them, for want of a better term, non-persons.
Ukrainians must swear allegiance to Russia, or leave their homes and country or be destroyed.

Whenever outsiders are watching, the Russian Federation goes to great lengths to minimizing casualties and damage. Therefore, it is important that outsiders keep watching and witnessing.

Besides the humanitarian aspect, it is obvious that this is actually a conflict between NATO and the Russian Federation. It is very unfortunate that the Ukranian people got caught up in the middle of it.

I consider NATO to be a treacherous entity, which incessantly encouraged Ukraine to get into trouble with Russia. As soon the proverbial turd hit the fan, however, NATO is simply nowhere to be seen. I do not know where these NATO rats are hiding nowadays. NATO are definitely not going to risk their lives and die for the problems that they were so friendly to help causing. What a bunch of cowards!

[UniversalAlien]

In Ukraine Russia said no - It would no longer bargain with Ukrainians and declared them, for want of a better term, non-persons.
Ukrainians must swear allegiance to Russia, or leave their homes and country or be destroyed.

Whenever outsiders are watching, the Russian Federation goes to great lengths to minimizing casualties and damage. Therefore, it is important that outsiders keep watching and witnessing.

Besides the humanitarian aspect, it is obvious that this is actually a conflict between NATO and the Russian Federation. It is very unfortunate that the Ukranian people got caught up in the middle of it.

I consider NATO to be a treacherous entity, which incessantly encouraged Ukraine to get into trouble with Russia. As soon the proverbial turd hit the fan, however, NATO is simply nowhere to be seen. I do not know where these NATO rats are hiding nowadays. NATO are definitely not going to risk their lives and die for the problems that they were so friendly to help causing. What a bunch of cowards!

A few years ago, before it turned so far right politically that any anti-Trump post was immediately deleted, I was writing on a so called
conspiracy forum - And asked why are we, the US and the West, still seeing Russia as an enemy After all Communism was basically gone from Russia and the old Soviet Union no longer existed. American companies were investing big in Russia and a real 'New World Order' was now possible - So what happened Who is really behind this new 'cold war' mentality which has now turned into a hot war in
Ukraine

As we see the West wants to pin the blame on Putin, you want to pin it on NATO, and I still think our ex President Trump's "make America great again", and the hell with the rest of the World, ideology plays a part as well.

Still no matter whose side you believe in - you have to admit that Russia's resorting to a hot war in Ukraine was not really necessary,
was it Putin may have been a decent KGB agent - but politically he is not playing a good game

[LuckyR]

In Ukraine Russia said no - It would no longer bargain with Ukrainians and declared them, for want of a better term, non-persons.
Ukrainians must swear allegiance to Russia, or leave their homes and country or be destroyed.

Whenever outsiders are watching, the Russian Federation goes to great lengths to minimizing casualties and damage. Therefore, it is important that outsiders keep watching and witnessing.

Besides the humanitarian aspect, it is obvious that this is actually a conflict between NATO and the Russian Federation. It is very unfortunate that the Ukranian people got caught up in the middle of it.

I consider NATO to be a treacherous entity, which incessantly encouraged Ukraine to get into trouble with Russia. As soon the proverbial turd hit the fan, however, NATO is simply nowhere to be seen. I do not know where these NATO rats are hiding nowadays. NATO are definitely not going to risk their lives and die for the problems that they were so friendly to help causing. What a bunch of cowards!

I believe Ukraine's president said not to send troops, send munitions, which I think is exactly what NATO did/is doing.

[Count Lucanor]

Still, when you or your ally is attacked it does become an understandable response, rather than sitting idle and taking punishment or ultimately some kind of enslavement.

I hope you remember that the first Gulf War expelled the Iraqi forces from Kuwait in February, 1991. If a "defense of an ally" was the motive, that should have been the end of the military operations, since the objectives of the "understandable response" had been met. However, the iraqi people continued to suffer for a decade from sanctions, destruction of civilian infrastructure, crop burning, bombings in 1993 and 1998, and the effect of depleted uranium from the hundreds of tonnes of ammunition over 300+ sites (Iraq has one of the highest rates of cancer in the world). That, of course, from the war that you find justified, but then how about the second Gulf War? What's your justification for that one?

I don't think you can fairly make a claim of genocide or war crime on the whole for Bush coming to defend Kuwait, since he only drove the aggressor out and stopped.

It has been shown that hostilities against the iraqi population did not cease in 1991. Civilian deaths amounted to a number between 100,000 and 200,000 as a result of "driving the aggessor out". But even if you want to give a break to Bush senior and Clinton, Bush junior could not run away without judgement. No wonder he has been accused of war crimes (269 to be more precise), including torture. The civilian fatal casualties from the second Gulf War range from 150,000 to 950,000. The civilian deaths so far in the Russia-Ukraine war amount to 3,778. Would you say it makes sense to call the last one genocide, but not the first two?

[UniversalAlien]

Genocide or not, the 'Special Military Operation' has made a good part of the World anti Russian:

"Russian oil: EU agrees compromise deal on banning imports"

European Union leaders have agreed on a plan to block more than two-thirds of Russian oil imports.

The ban will only affect oil that arrives by sea but not pipeline oil, following opposition from Hungary.

European Council chief Charles Michel said the deal cut off a huge source of financing for the Russian war machine.

It is part of a sixth package of sanctions approved at a summit in Brussels, which all 27 member states have had to agree on.

Russia currently supplies 27% of the EU's imported oil and 40% of its gas. The EU pays Russia around €400bn ($430bn, £341bn) a year in return.

So far, no sanctions on Russian gas exports to the EU have been put in place, although plans to open a new gas pipeline from Russia to Germany have been frozen............

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61638860


"Sweden ends 200 years of military neutrality, joins Finland in seeking NATO membership"

STOCKHOLM (AP) — Sweden’s prime minister announced Monday that Sweden will join Finland in seeking NATO membership in the wake of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, a historic shift that comes after more than 200 years of military nonalignment in the Nordic country.

The move, which is likely to upset the government of Russian President Vladimir Putin, came after neighboring Finland announced Sunday that it too would seek to join the 30-country military alliance.

READ MORE: McConnell backs Finland, Sweden NATO memberships during stop in Europe

Prime Minister Magdalena Andersson called it “a historic change in our country’s security policy” as she addressed lawmakers in the Swedish capital.

“We will inform NATO that we want to become a member of the alliance,” she said. “Sweden needs formal security guarantees that come with membership in NATO.”

Andersson adding that Sweden was acting together with Finland........

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/swed ... membership

[Count Lucanor]

Genocide or not, the 'Special Military Operation' has made a good part of the World anti Russian:

That's a statement from a pedestrian-level analysis. A less naive look will take into account the following:

In their promotion of NATO's expansion, Kissinger and Brzezinski have said that without Europe, USA would just be an island between other powers. Following the ideas of Halford Mackinder, they have said that the Eurasian continent is key for strategic world domination. Russians are no fools, of course, and they have come up with their own version of Eurasianism, which includes a Russian version of the Monroe Doctrine (the US will not allow military bases from other country anywhere in the Americas and will go to war to enforce that doctrine, as the Cuban missile crisis showed). What is at stake here is then pure geopolitics, which only knows of national interests, not morals. All actors will do what they find practical for their pursued interests, so does NATO and so does Russia. Against the advice of strategic consultants (Kennan, Mearsheimer), however, the US and its allies have chosen the path of expanding NATO, effectively challenging and provoking Russia, which at some time after the fall of the USSR did want to be integrated to Western Europe (one point you hear Putin talk often is how Russia was ignored and mistreated by Western powers during this approach). At the end, Kennan and Mearsheimer will be proven right: not only they predicted what is currently happening, but the path chosen by the US to dominate Eurasia will backfire spectacularly: Russia will fall into the hands of China, and with India not being particularly friendly to the Western alliance, it will have lost Eurasia altogether. But it's an ongoing chess game, we have to see the next moves.

[Pattern-chaser]

...the path chosen by the US to dominate Eurasia will backfire spectacularly: Russia will fall into the hands of China, and with India not being particularly friendly to the Western alliance, it will have lost Eurasia altogether.

If Russia, China and India worked together, it is difficult to imagine anything/anyone standing up effectively against them, not even the overwhelmingly-beweaponed USA.

[Tegularius]

At the end, Kennan and Mearsheimer will be proven right: not only they predicted what is currently happening, but the path chosen by the US to dominate Eurasia will backfire spectacularly: Russia will fall into the hands of China, and with India not being particularly friendly to the Western alliance, it will have lost Eurasia altogether. But it's an ongoing chess game, we have to see the next moves.

In the light of events, that seems a massive overstatement! Currently, Europe and the US can't even get the grain exports, which the Russians stole, moving out of Ukrainian ports to fend off starvation especially in 3rd world countries. Why? Is the US too afraid, too chickenshit, these would-be controllers of Eurasia, to perform what clearly isn't optional but supremely essential?

Why would Russia be concerned about Nato in the first place, since it's a defense organization certainly not willing to attack Russia. This is purely Putin's war in an effort to regain territory that once belonged to the Soviets. He noticed how relatively easy Crimea was so why not go for the whole enchilada. If Nato had not been expanding, would it seriously have made any difference for what he always wanted to do, planned to do? Consider the reasons given for the invasion namely denazification which is such a stupid absurdity impossible for anyone else to accept!

Putin's motives are clear having little to do with Nato's expansion which was never a military threat to Russia. Putin is nothing more than the 21st century's paperback version of Hitler, against which the West - in spite of all the sanctions - remains as wimpy as ever.

[UniversalAlien]

At the end, Kennan and Mearsheimer will be proven right: not only they predicted what is currently happening, but the path chosen by the US to dominate Eurasia will backfire spectacularly: Russia will fall into the hands of China, and with India not being particularly friendly to the Western alliance, it will have lost Eurasia altogether. But it's an ongoing chess game, we have to see the next moves.

In the light of events, that seems a massive overstatement! Currently, Europe and the US can't even get the grain exports, which the Russians stole, moving out of Ukrainian ports to fend off starvation especially in 3rd world countries. Why? Is the US too afraid, too chickenshit, these would-be controllers of Eurasia, to perform what clearly isn't optional but supremely essential?

Why would Russia be concerned about Nato in the first place, since it's a defense organization certainly not willing to attack Russia. This is purely Putin's war in an effort to regain territory that once belonged to the Soviets. He noticed how relatively easy Crimea was so why not go for the whole enchilada. If Nato had not been expanding, would it seriously have made any difference for what he always wanted to do, planned to do? Consider the reasons given for the invasion namely denazification which is such a stupid absurdity impossible for anyone else to accept!

Putin's motives are clear having little to do with Nato's expansion which was never a military threat to Russia. Putin is nothing more than the 21st century's paperback version of Hitler, against which the West - in spite of all the sanctions - remains as wimpy as ever.

WELL SAID

On a talk show recently the guest, a political analyst, commented that Biden's biggest mistake was telling Russia that American troops
would not get involved, no boots on the ground - Another words he said we will slap Russia on the wrist with economic sanctions and
some military hardware to Ukraine but we will not stop Russia

I wasn't around when Hitler told the World what he was going to do - But history records the rest of the World {particularly the US,
Britain, and France} did little to stop what happened next, WWII.

This same pussyfooting with a wounded bear, Russia, led by an ex Communist Party functionary, Putin, who 'may' be suffering from early onset dementia, is more than dangerous - It is very dangerous

Sometimes I wonder if those so-called geniuses who work for military and civilian 'think tanks' are so hung up in their own illusions
and delusions that they can no longer think straight and see the World for what is really happening




“Sometimes people don't want to hear the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche

[Count Lucanor]

At the end, Kennan and Mearsheimer will be proven right: not only they predicted what is currently happening, but the path chosen by the US to dominate Eurasia will backfire spectacularly: Russia will fall into the hands of China, and with India not being particularly friendly to the Western alliance, it will have lost Eurasia altogether. But it's an ongoing chess game, we have to see the next moves.

In the light of events, that seems a massive overstatement! Currently, Europe and the US can't even get the grain exports, which the Russians stole, moving out of Ukrainian ports to fend off starvation especially in 3rd world countries. Why? Is the US too afraid, too chickenshit, these would-be controllers of Eurasia, to perform what clearly isn't optional but supremely essential?

I just laid out the doctrines and strategic objectives which are behind the actions that led to this conflict. We all know, of course, that this does not necessarily mean that the US will carry out such plans without miscalculating and messing up, as it always does. Many of its ambassadors to Europe have said: "we don't care about what Russia wants, we'll do what we want". Maybe they should have not messed up with Russia. Anyway, it's too early to call the game!!

Why would Russia be concerned about Nato in the first place, since it's a defense organization certainly not willing to attack Russia.

Ha!! Wake up.

This is purely Putin's war in an effort to regain territory that once belonged to the Soviets. He noticed how relatively easy Crimea was so why not go for the whole enchilada. If Nato had not been expanding, would it seriously have made any difference for what he always wanted to do, planned to do? Consider the reasons given for the invasion namely denazification which is such a stupid absurdity impossible for anyone else to accept!

Putin's motives are clear having little to do with Nato's expansion which was never a military threat to Russia. Putin is nothing more than the 21st century's paperback version of Hitler, against which the West - in spite of all the sanctions - remains as wimpy as ever.

Sure, forget about history, politics and international relations of power, it all boils down to the demonic desires of a mad men vs the nice guys. That's just the caricature sketched out by the masters of propaganda, the same that will make a military operation with a civilian death toll of half a million look like an everyday walk in the park.

[Tegularius]

This is purely Putin's war in an effort to regain territory that once belonged to the Soviets. He noticed how relatively easy Crimea was so why not go for the whole enchilada. If Nato had not been expanding, would it seriously have made any difference for what he always wanted to do, planned to do? Consider the reasons given for the invasion namely denazification which is such a stupid absurdity impossible for anyone else to accept!

Putin's motives are clear having little to do with Nato's expansion which was never a military threat to Russia. Putin is nothing more than the 21st century's paperback version of Hitler, against which the West - in spite of all the sanctions - remains as wimpy as ever.

Sure, forget about history, politics and international relations of power, it all boils down to the demonic desires of a mad men vs the nice guys. That's just the caricature sketched out by the masters of propaganda, the same that will make a military operation with a civilian death toll of half a million look like an everyday walk in the park.

Oh, I haven't forgotten about history; history is being made right now with ramifications for just about everyone. In case you haven't noticed, it was Russia that invaded Ukraine in order to denazify it. What a stupid absurdity! Enlighten me! Did NATO ever start a war?

Maybe it's you who should wake up!