Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

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Tegularius
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by Tegularius »

Count Lucanor wrote: June 3rd, 2022, 3:08 pmNATO can consider Russia's stance as hooliganism as much as Russia can consider NATO's stance as hooliganism. These are world powers with conflicting interests. One pushes forward, the other one pushes back. Is that too difficult to understand? NATO is not a diplomatic organization, it is a belligerent military alliance.
I see! So while Russia attacked Ukraine with the utmost belligerency and brutality against everything standing, it is NATO which is belligerent by helping Ukraine defend itself with equipment and supplies!

What planet are you on?
Count Lucanor wrote: June 3rd, 2022, 3:08 pmYou seem to be an easy target for propaganda. The fact is that all wars kill civilians, and to say that "collateral damage" happens "inadvertently" is purely a PR manouver.
It’s obvious in every war that civilians get killed even if they aren’t explicitly targeted. To think otherwise would be naive. The difference is that in Putin’s war they obviously are targeted. How otherwise explain the brutality? There’s a huge difference both in number and intent between killing civilians inadvertently or as included targets. If inadvertently killed, it won't matter to me if I was included or not, but I figure, if still standing, I got a better chance if I weren't denoted as an object to be eradicated.

Strange you don’t notice the difference! The Russians certainly can't!
Count Lucanor wrote: June 3rd, 2022, 3:08 pmYou're still trying to find moral justifications in acts of war, I don't. Some are worst than others, and the US and its allies are certainly not exempt of committing atrocities in their trangressions. They have also made sure they cannot be held accountable for their crimes by any international court.
I don’t find anything moral about a war but moral or not doesn’t decide whether justified or not. It’s true, the US and its allies are certainly not exempt of committing atrocities in their trangressions. The Americans and Allies generally during WWII have amply proven that they weren’t far below the Nazis when it comes to war crimes though not as bad as the Russians who were nothing more than one big rape gang as everyone has long known!

The subject is what’s happening in the here and now

Regarding that it’s your expressed view that NATO is the culprit having caused Russia's reaction against Ukraine. In short, it is NATO’s fault for having initiated this fiasco and Putin who was merely defending his country which was never attacked...which is about as much BS as I can stand!
Count Lucanor wrote: June 3rd, 2022, 3:08 pmYour statements do not come from objective analysis, but pure prejudice. Russians are demons and the US and NATO are angelical envoys descended from heaven. Whenever Russians do something, it is because of some essential evil, whenever the US does the same or worst, there are always reasonable explanations, because...well, they can only be the good guys. You can see it at the movies, right?
Based on your defense of Russia as the innocent here, it’s not unexpected that you would conclude with a stupid imbecilic statement to match the rest of your geopolitical insights.
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by Count Lucanor »

Tegularius wrote: June 5th, 2022, 6:17 pm
Count Lucanor wrote: June 3rd, 2022, 3:08 pmNATO can consider Russia's stance as hooliganism as much as Russia can consider NATO's stance as hooliganism. These are world powers with conflicting interests. One pushes forward, the other one pushes back. Is that too difficult to understand? NATO is not a diplomatic organization, it is a belligerent military alliance.
I see! So while Russia attacked Ukraine with the utmost belligerency and brutality against everything standing, it is NATO which is belligerent by helping Ukraine defend itself with equipment and supplies!

What planet are you on?
I'm on planet Earth, you're in some fantasy land that I'm still figuring out where it is. I mean, you are pretending to be so naive that you feel outraged and surprised that a military operation from Russia involves "belligerency and brutality", implying that other military operations from the US and European powers were not brutal. Where were you when the Iraq invasion? Afghanistan? Lybia? Vietnam? Panama? Have you forgotten the civilians targeted in Hiroshima & Nagasaki? Those in Dresden? How about the recent shellings of Yemen with support of the US and its allies? Are you suggesting that you find no signs of these "special operations" being brutal?

Of course I don't believe for a minute your surprise and outrage, it's just the typical form that propaganda takes. You're proselytizing, promoting anti-Russian sentiments and portraying US and NATO as angels. Pfff...
Count Lucanor wrote: June 3rd, 2022, 3:08 pmYou seem to be an easy target for propaganda. The fact is that all wars kill civilians, and to say that "collateral damage" happens "inadvertently" is purely a PR manouver.
Tegularius wrote: June 5th, 2022, 6:17 pm It’s obvious in every war that civilians get killed even if they aren’t explicitly targeted. To think otherwise would be naive. The difference is that in Putin’s war they obviously are targeted. How otherwise explain the brutality? There’s a huge difference both in number and intent between killing civilians inadvertently or as included targets. If inadvertently killed, it won't matter to me if I was included or not, but I figure, if still standing, I got a better chance if I weren't denoted as an object to be eradicated.

Strange you don’t notice the difference! The Russians certainly can't!
No, the difference between "obviously targeted by Russians" and "not obviously targeted by the US and NATO" is simply your biased opinion with the aim of portraying some as the demons and others like saints. Always trying to qualify morally military actions, so that the guys you feel politically affiliated look like the nice guys.
Count Lucanor wrote: June 3rd, 2022, 3:08 pmYou're still trying to find moral justifications in acts of war, I don't. Some are worst than others, and the US and its allies are certainly not exempt of committing atrocities in their trangressions. They have also made sure they cannot be held accountable for their crimes by any international court.
Tegularius wrote: June 5th, 2022, 6:17 pm I don’t find anything moral about a war but moral or not doesn’t decide whether justified or not. It’s true, the US and its allies are certainly not exempt of committing atrocities in their trangressions. The Americans and Allies generally during WWII have amply proven that they weren’t far below the Nazis when it comes to war crimes though not as bad as the Russians who were nothing more than one big rape gang as everyone has long known!

The subject is what’s happening in the here and now
Ha! WWII? Really? 80 years ago is as early as you can go in terms of brutality from the US and its allies?
Tegularius wrote: June 5th, 2022, 6:17 pm Regarding that it’s your expressed view that NATO is the culprit having caused Russia's reaction against Ukraine. In short, it is NATO’s fault for having initiated this fiasco and Putin who was merely defending his country which was never attacked...which is about as much BS as I can stand!
But you seem to stand a lot of BS from US propaganda machine.

I never used the words "defending his country", I've been inclined all the time to say "defending Russia's geopolitical interests" against the US geopolitical interests. BTW, did you forget Bush's preemptive strike doctrine? What is your assessment of such doctrine?
Tegularius wrote: June 5th, 2022, 6:17 pm
Count Lucanor wrote: June 3rd, 2022, 3:08 pmYour statements do not come from objective analysis, but pure prejudice. Russians are demons and the US and NATO are angelical envoys descended from heaven. Whenever Russians do something, it is because of some essential evil, whenever the US does the same or worst, there are always reasonable explanations, because...well, they can only be the good guys. You can see it at the movies, right?
Based on your defense of Russia as the innocent here, it’s not unexpected that you would conclude with a stupid imbecilic statement to match the rest of your geopolitical insights.
I'm not defending Russia, because "defense" here means "moral defense". It is you engaged in such ideological project, with that tone of phariseeism that pretends moral outrage and emotional disgust. I'm only concerned with the real causes of the conflict, which I have explained thoroughly. Wrong or not, that approach will always prove to make more sense than your childish tantrum.
https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/ ... sis-Is.pdf
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

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I just finished watching this documentary movie {available on Amazon Prime}:

"Citizen K"
Oscar-winning documentary filmmaker Alex Gibney delivers one of his strongest explorations of global politics in considering the strange case of Mikhail Khodorkovsky. Once believed to be the wealthiest man in Russia, Mikhail Khodorkovsky rocketed to prosperity and prominence in the 1990s, served a decade in prison, and became an unlikely leader of the anti-Putin movement. In tracking Mikhail Khodorkovsky's story, Alex Gibney creates a compelling portrait of post-Soviet Russia, a nation caught between radically divergent political models - and where fortunes can transform overnight. The collapse of the USSR ushered in an era of chaos and opportunity. With laws lagging behind socioeconomic change, Russia fomented a kind of gangster capitalism. Mikhail Khodorkovsky took advantage of the privatization of state assets, created Russia's first commercial bank, and built Yukos, Russia's biggest oil company. His success in business was accompanied by a level of political influence that would prove precarious. In 2003, just months after publicly criticizing corruption within Vladimir Putin's government, Mikhail Khodorkovsky was arrested for fraud, and Yukos' shares were frozen and conveyed to the Russian state. He was found guilty, and sentenced to nine years' incarceration. Then, in 2010, Mikhail Khodorkovsky was hit with new charges of embezzlement and money laundering: he was essentially accused by the state of stealing his own oil, in what many recognized as a show trial.—Toronto International Film Festival
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10703826/? ... _sr_srsg_4


The film is recommended for anyone interested in what is going on in Russia and its current Ukrainian invasion.

To sum it up in case you are not going to watch it - It shows how Vladimir Putin, who was a small time KGB nobody under the Soviets,
went into politics and with the help of some wealthy Russian Oligarchs managed to seize, over time, complete dictatorial control
of Russia - Enemies were eliminated by chicanery, which included accusing political opponents of trumped up crimes and/or having them killed. This included most if not all the other oligarchs that either never liked Putin to begin with, or realized he had morphed into a menace for Russia and wanted him gone.

Apparently there is a substantial cartel, including many wealthy oligarchs living in exile, who despise Vladimir Putin.
Some consider Putin's government to be a criminal enterprise :!:


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Tegularius
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by Tegularius »

Tegularius wrote: June 5th, 2022, 6:17 pm Regarding that it’s your expressed view that NATO is the culprit having caused Russia's reaction against Ukraine. In short, it is NATO’s fault for having initiated this fiasco and Putin who was merely defending his country which was never attacked...which is about as much BS as I can stand!
Count Lucanor wrote: June 5th, 2022, 7:50 pmBut you seem to stand a lot of BS from US propaganda machine.
What's happening in Ukraine is there for all TO SEE; it doesn't require US propaganda or European propaganda. Putin's agenda couldn't be clearer as is now so very clear to countries that never envisioned joining NATO or the EU's defense policy. But if your main news source is Russian radio and television then of course your views make perfect sense.

Even Denmark is now joining the European Union's Defense Policy...
The referendum was the latest example of a European country seeking closer defence links with allies in response to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.

It followed Sweden and Finland’s historic bids to join NATO – an issue to be taken up at a summit next month. Both Denmark and Germany have already promised to sharply raise defense spending
.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/6/1 ... nce-policy

...amazing all this sudden paranoia piling on the head of poor Putin. What is one to do except that which Putin has done: threaten nuclear retaliation!
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

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Tegularius wrote: June 6th, 2022, 2:21 am
Tegularius wrote: June 5th, 2022, 6:17 pm Regarding that it’s your expressed view that NATO is the culprit having caused Russia's reaction against Ukraine. In short, it is NATO’s fault for having initiated this fiasco and Putin who was merely defending his country which was never attacked...which is about as much BS as I can stand!
Count Lucanor wrote: June 5th, 2022, 7:50 pmBut you seem to stand a lot of BS from US propaganda machine.
What's happening in Ukraine is there for all TO SEE; it doesn't require US propaganda or European propaganda. Putin's agenda couldn't be clearer as is now so very clear to countries that never envisioned joining NATO or the EU's defense policy. But if your main news source is Russian radio and television then of course your views make perfect sense.

Even Denmark is now joining the European Union's Defense Policy...
The referendum was the latest example of a European country seeking closer defence links with allies in response to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.

It followed Sweden and Finland’s historic bids to join NATO – an issue to be taken up at a summit next month. Both Denmark and Germany have already promised to sharply raise defense spending
.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/6/1 ... nce-policy

...amazing all this sudden paranoia piling on the head of poor Putin. What is one to do except that which Putin has done: threaten nuclear retaliation!
Yes, what is happening in Ukraine is there for all to see. There are many people seeing it: there is good political analysis and there is a bad one. Those who look at it without objectivity, with implicit and explicit bias, tend to express views that are a bit cartoonish, with good and bad guys, and reducing everything to a battle between the irrational, mad, evil desires of their political opponents vs the reasonable, innocent, well-intentioned actions of their preferred party.

Interesting enough, the same people had not long ago another "mad enemy", an evil, anti-democratic dictator that had to be subject of economic sanctions and being politically outcast, to the point of not being recognized officially as the president of his country, while another self-appointed man with no institutional support, was recognized as the official one. Now, suddenly, Nicolas Maduro's evil, anti-democratic agenda is forgotten, and the US is allowing Europe to trade with Venezuela for oil and gas resources. Among other things, being the US that decides which are the EU economic partners and when, it is very telling about world power relations. And about the supposed moral concerns of the US and Europe.

https://www.usnews.com/news/top-news/ar ... bt-sources

Meanwhile, the US has banned Venezuela from the Summit of The Americas 2022.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
Tegularius
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by Tegularius »

Count Lucanor wrote: June 6th, 2022, 2:16 pm
Tegularius wrote: June 6th, 2022, 2:21 am
Tegularius wrote: June 5th, 2022, 6:17 pm Regarding that it’s your expressed view that NATO is the culprit having caused Russia's reaction against Ukraine. In short, it is NATO’s fault for having initiated this fiasco and Putin who was merely defending his country which was never attacked...which is about as much BS as I can stand!
Count Lucanor wrote: June 5th, 2022, 7:50 pmBut you seem to stand a lot of BS from US propaganda machine.
What's happening in Ukraine is there for all TO SEE; it doesn't require US propaganda or European propaganda. Putin's agenda couldn't be clearer as is now so very clear to countries that never envisioned joining NATO or the EU's defense policy. But if your main news source is Russian radio and television then of course your views make perfect sense.

Even Denmark is now joining the European Union's Defense Policy...
The referendum was the latest example of a European country seeking closer defence links with allies in response to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.

It followed Sweden and Finland’s historic bids to join NATO – an issue to be taken up at a summit next month. Both Denmark and Germany have already promised to sharply raise defense spending
.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/6/1 ... nce-policy

...amazing all this sudden paranoia piling on the head of poor Putin. What is one to do except that which Putin has done: threaten nuclear retaliation!
Yes, what is happening in Ukraine is there for all to see. There are many people seeing it: there is good political analysis and there is a bad one. Those who look at it without objectivity, with implicit and explicit bias, tend to express views that are a bit cartoonish, with good and bad guys, and reducing everything to a battle between the irrational, mad, evil desires of their political opponents vs the reasonable, innocent, well-intentioned actions of their preferred party.

Interesting enough, the same people had not long ago another "mad enemy", an evil, anti-democratic dictator that had to be subject of economic sanctions and being politically outcast, to the point of not being recognized officially as the president of his country, while another self-appointed man with no institutional support, was recognized as the official one. Now, suddenly, Nicolas Maduro's evil, anti-democratic agenda is forgotten, and the US is allowing Europe to trade with Venezuela for oil and gas resources. Among other things, being the US that decides which are the EU economic partners and when, it is very telling about world power relations. And about the supposed moral concerns of the US and Europe.

https://www.usnews.com/news/top-news/ar ... bt-sources

Meanwhile, the US has banned Venezuela from the Summit of The Americas 2022.
Yes! All very nice! But what has all this got to do with Putin's scorched earth policy against Ukraine? The fact that countries across the globe rely more on expediency than morality (for lack of a better word), to determine their behaviors is hardly a secret. Nevertheless, events can only be judged on what's happening NOW which is clearly creating a whole new geopolitical reality, that is, if the nukes are retained in their silos.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

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Tegularius wrote: June 6th, 2022, 3:35 pm Yes! All very nice! But what has all this got to do with Putin's scorched earth policy against Ukraine? The fact that countries across the globe rely more on expediency than morality (for lack of a better word), to determine their behaviors is hardly a secret. Nevertheless, events can only be judged on what's happening NOW which is clearly creating a whole new geopolitical reality, that is, if the nukes are retained in their silos.
Staying at your level of analysis, this has to do with a bully provoking another bully to fight, to see who gets to be the dominant bully. I'm with Mearsheimer and others here, the first bully is the US and NATO. This is a proxy war and the US cares nothing about Ukraine, if it takes sacrificing it for its political interests, it will do it.
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

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Count Lucanor wrote: June 6th, 2022, 8:50 pm
Tegularius wrote: June 6th, 2022, 3:35 pm Yes! All very nice! But what has all this got to do with Putin's scorched earth policy against Ukraine? The fact that countries across the globe rely more on expediency than morality (for lack of a better word), to determine their behaviors is hardly a secret. Nevertheless, events can only be judged on what's happening NOW which is clearly creating a whole new geopolitical reality, that is, if the nukes are retained in their silos.
Staying at your level of analysis, this has to do with a bully provoking another bully to fight, to see who gets to be the dominant bully. I'm with Mearsheimer and others here, the first bully is the US and NATO. This is a proxy war and the US cares nothing about Ukraine, if it takes sacrificing it for its political interests, it will do it.
Just for the sake of argument let's pretend - Today I am Russian and stand for the people of Russia :roll:

I liked Vladimir Putin, he gave Russia a new image, a feeling that things could be not only like before the fall of the USSR,
but even better - The Russian Federation could bring Russia back to being respected on the World stage.

And until this ill conceived 'Special Military Operation', he may have been succeeding. But now what has happened :?:
Russia has lost respect on the World stage, countries near Russia are running to NATO out of fear and the Russian image has
become tarnished.

Is Ukraine really worth this :?: There are a lot of Russians living in Ukraine, correct :?: And part of the problem seems to be related to
this conflict of Russian vs. non-Russian Ukrainians true :?:

Fact is this war is insane and should not be happening - Reminds of the American war in Vietnam another example of a useless military
exercise that killed many and accomplished NOTHING :!:

Maybe Russia and the United States who were beaten in Afghanistan should ask the Taliban to intervene and tell the Ukrainians
how to beat mega power bullies that have lots of guns but little intelligence :!:
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

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UniversalAlien wrote: June 6th, 2022, 10:40 pm Just for the sake of argument let's pretend - Today I am Russian and stand for the people of Russia :roll:

I liked Vladimir Putin, he gave Russia a new image, a feeling that things could be not only like before the fall of the USSR,
but even better - The Russian Federation could bring Russia back to being respected on the World stage.

And until this ill conceived 'Special Military Operation', he may have been succeeding. But now what has happened :?:
Russia has lost respect on the World stage, countries near Russia are running to NATO out of fear and the Russian image has
become tarnished.
I really couldn't care less for how popular Putin is in Russia or anywhere else, but just for the sake of your argument, I'll go along with this.
It appears that actually, Putin's popularity has gone up to 82% in Russia. https://www.gazeta.ru/social/news/2022/ ... ml?updated

Again, that is meaningless for me, but it should mean something to you.

Has Putin lost respect on the world stage? Well, everyone acknowledges he is winning the economic war:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... imir-putin

And Hungary is making the EU look struggling ridiculously to enact sanctions:
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/30/eu-to-d ... -firm.html
UniversalAlien wrote: June 6th, 2022, 10:40 pm Is Ukraine really worth this :?:
That's a question that should be asked also to the US, it is one of the sides in this proxy war.
UniversalAlien wrote: June 6th, 2022, 10:40 pm Fact is this war is insane and should not be happening - Reminds of the American war in Vietnam another example of a useless military
exercise that killed many and accomplished NOTHING :!:
Again, it's mind-boggling that you have to go 50+ years back to find a war that is insane. The Iraq war, which caused the death of between 500K to 1 million civilians, does not appear in your insanity radar. That is insane. I can tell you of insane wars going on now, such as Israel bombing Syria, or Saudi Arabia (helped by the US) bombing Yemen.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by heracleitos »

UniversalAlien wrote: June 6th, 2022, 10:40 pm Russia has lost respect on the World stage
I have to disagree with that view.

Russia has gained a lot of respect on the world stage by finally pushing back against NATO.

All of that was long overdue.

In violation of the 1945 Yalta treaty, NATO has built numerous military bases across the demarcation line agreed between Roosevelt and Stalin. In my opinion, either NATO dismantles these military bases, or else the Russian Federation will have no other option than to attack and destroy them.

Since all respect is ultimately based on the fear for reprisals, I have quite a bit of respect to Vladimir Putin as he has finally started reining in the arrogance and disrespect of the West. It really had to stop.

Concerning the Ukraine, I am sorry for the Ukranian people that it is their country that is the first one to be chosen as a battlefield. In my opinion, the destruction will continue and spread until the Russian Federation has finally regained its rightful position at the Yalta demarcation line.
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

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Let's see more insane wars. I wonder if they made their instigator lose respect on the world stage and if they tell us something about the "philosophy of genocide".
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by Tegularius »

Count Lucanor wrote: June 6th, 2022, 8:50 pm
Tegularius wrote: June 6th, 2022, 3:35 pm Yes! All very nice! But what has all this got to do with Putin's scorched earth policy against Ukraine? The fact that countries across the globe rely more on expediency than morality (for lack of a better word), to determine their behaviors is hardly a secret. Nevertheless, events can only be judged on what's happening NOW which is clearly creating a whole new geopolitical reality, that is, if the nukes are retained in their silos.
Staying at your level of analysis, this has to do with a bully provoking another bully to fight, to see who gets to be the dominant bully. I'm with Mearsheimer and others here, the first bully is the US and NATO. This is a proxy war and the US cares nothing about Ukraine, if it takes sacrificing it for its political interests, it will do it.
I would say it's much more complicated being a matter of not only political interest but economic as well by way of exports to the West. But if you interpret it in such a simplistic manner, that's up to you. Everything about Putin reeks of corruption which many Russians are themselves aware of. If NATO had not thus far supported Ukraine, it would by now have completely succumbed to Russia. It seems that would have been the preferable scenario according to your views. At least it would have proven the US having no "political interest" at all in the region or any other country which is non-NATO, simply ignoring what's happening and move on, business as usual...except it wouldn't have been even if the US and NATO had completely removed themselves from the offensive. To think otherwise is as geopolitically inept as it's possible to be.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by Count Lucanor »

Tegularius wrote: June 7th, 2022, 1:26 am
Count Lucanor wrote: June 6th, 2022, 8:50 pm
Tegularius wrote: June 6th, 2022, 3:35 pm Yes! All very nice! But what has all this got to do with Putin's scorched earth policy against Ukraine? The fact that countries across the globe rely more on expediency than morality (for lack of a better word), to determine their behaviors is hardly a secret. Nevertheless, events can only be judged on what's happening NOW which is clearly creating a whole new geopolitical reality, that is, if the nukes are retained in their silos.
Staying at your level of analysis, this has to do with a bully provoking another bully to fight, to see who gets to be the dominant bully. I'm with Mearsheimer and others here, the first bully is the US and NATO. This is a proxy war and the US cares nothing about Ukraine, if it takes sacrificing it for its political interests, it will do it.
I would say it's much more complicated being a matter of not only political interest but economic as well by way of exports to the West. But if you interpret it in such a simplistic manner, that's up to you. Everything about Putin reeks of corruption which many Russians are themselves aware of. If NATO had not thus far supported Ukraine, it would by now have completely succumbed to Russia. It seems that would have been the preferable scenario according to your views. At least it would have proven the US having no "political interest" at all in the region or any other country which is non-NATO, simply ignoring what's happening and move on, business as usual...except it wouldn't have been even if the US and NATO had completely removed themselves from the offensive. To think otherwise is as geopolitically inept as it's possible to be.
Are you kidding me? :roll: After I made my point of this conflict being a complicated matter and you insisted in bringing me down to the simple terms of your level of analysis, you now tell me not to "interpret it in such a simplistic manner". Epic!!

Since when political interests are not intertwined with economic interests?

Your story is that an innocent, disinterested, well-intentioned, peace-loving, non-belligerent NATO, simply reacted to a Russian invasion that just came out of the blue. For me, that is a caricature of political analysis. It does not take into account the historical precedents and the strategic interests involved in the actions of superpowers, which have never been disinterested witnesses to what has unfolded in Europe over the decades before and after the end of the Cold War. For example, the Euromaidan coup in 2014, supported by the US and NATO, stands in the background of the current political events, it was one step in NATO's expansion process. The "mad Putin" narrative started back then.
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by Tegularius »

Count Lucanor wrote: June 7th, 2022, 3:46 pmYour story is that an innocent, disinterested, well-intentioned, peace-loving, non-belligerent NATO, simply reacted to a Russian invasion that just came out of the blue
I would never have put it that way. Those are your words! Hardly anything ever just comes out of the blue in politics. With Putin there was a granite intent which was made clear when he decided "Ukraine actually doesn't have the right to exist as a state" and is taking action to bring the country back under its rule. That statement couldn’t be more specific in what it implies and intends and nothing to do with the US or NATO.

The fact the US was a corrupt power for so long does not imply or confirm they are therefore even now responsible for everything negative which happens. I think most people would logically agree with that statement...but obviously not everyone! That all the main historical powers threw their weight around from the Roman Empire to the British one with major detrimental consequences for others in their grasp is hardly beyond dispute. It’s the way it always was. That’s what China is in the process of attempting now.

Your view consists solely on the premise that because the Americans were so often corrosive in the past, they must by extension, be responsible for the situation in Ukraine now; that this is a proxy war which they caused intentionally forcing Putin to respond in the way he did...which is BS! Considered in geopolitical terms, it doesn't add up! How was NATO to benefit from this fiasco?

There is far less proxy in this war than your blind prejudice lays claim to.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/what-is-th ... -1.5804369

Since you're so certain that NATO is the culprit, what could they have done, how should they have reacted or in what manner preempted Russia’s invasion against a country which posed no danger to them?

Oh! I forgot! They had to purify it from all the Nazis who were ready to re-invade Mother Russia! Damn those Nazis! Won't they ever go away! :twisted:
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
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Count Lucanor
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by Count Lucanor »

Tegularius wrote: June 9th, 2022, 2:12 am
Count Lucanor wrote: June 7th, 2022, 3:46 pmYour story is that an innocent, disinterested, well-intentioned, peace-loving, non-belligerent NATO, simply reacted to a Russian invasion that just came out of the blue
I would never have put it that way. Those are your words! Hardly anything ever just comes out of the blue in politics. With Putin there was a granite intent which was made clear when he decided "Ukraine actually doesn't have the right to exist as a state" and is taking action to bring the country back under its rule. That statement couldn’t be more specific in what it implies and intends and nothing to do with the US or NATO.
That is just the same caricature, drawn from another angle: "Putin just got mad and the innocent Ukraine government, which was just minding their own neutral, peace-loving business, was suddenly attacked for no other reason. And then the US and NATO cavalry came to the rescue." My tears are falling to the sight of such heroism.
Tegularius wrote: June 9th, 2022, 2:12 am The fact the US was a corrupt power for so long does not imply or confirm they are therefore even now responsible for everything negative which happens. I think most people would logically agree with that statement...but obviously not everyone! That all the main historical powers threw their weight around from the Roman Empire to the British one with major detrimental consequences for others in their grasp is hardly beyond dispute. It’s the way it always was. That’s what China is in the process of attempting now.
WAS a corrupt power? Can you tell me the precise date in which it ceased to be a plutocracy and a danger to world peace and democracy?
Tegularius wrote: June 9th, 2022, 2:12 am Your view consists solely on the premise that because the Americans were so often corrosive in the past, they must by extension, be responsible for the situation in Ukraine now; that this is a proxy war which they caused intentionally forcing Putin to respond in the way he did...which is BS! Considered in geopolitical terms, it doesn't add up! How was NATO to benefit from this fiasco?
No, you're simply misrepresenting my views. I'm not using a deductive argument based on some speculative "premise" about how the US was in the past, and reaching conclusions from that. It's not that I just kind of figured out that "they must be". I'm stating the facts about what the US continues to be and continues to do right now, as the imperialistic power that it is, has been, and always will be until its end.
Tegularius wrote: June 9th, 2022, 2:12 am There is far less proxy in this war than your blind prejudice lays claim to.
The US and NATO have had their hands dirty since the conflict started in 2014. The blindness caused by your unfettered loyalty to NATOism will not change what is an obvious fact.
Tegularius wrote: June 9th, 2022, 2:12 am Since you're so certain that NATO is the culprit, what could they have done, how should they have reacted or in what manner preempted Russia’s invasion against a country which posed no danger to them?
Your question comes loaded with a fallacy, implying that NATO's actions are actually a reaction, but the fact is the expansion towards the East was going on for years, and when US and European politicians were confronted about the impact that would have on relations with Russia, they said "we don't care". It's on record. Now picture Nikita Khrushchev saying to the world when confronted about the possibility of a war with the US because of the placement of missiles in Cuba: "oh, I don't care what the Americans have to say".
Tegularius wrote: June 9th, 2022, 2:12 am Oh! I forgot! They had to purify it from all the Nazis who were ready to re-invade Mother Russia! Damn those Nazis! Won't they ever go away! :twisted:
Who knows, maybe it is Putin's version of "weapons of mass destruction". With the only difference that while such weapons were never found, the Azov Batallion fighters display their Nazi symbols openly.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
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