Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Have philosophical discussions about politics, law, and government.
Featured Article: Definition of Freedom - What Freedom Means to Me
User avatar
Count Lucanor
Posts: 2318
Joined: May 6th, 2017, 5:08 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco
Location: Panama
Contact:

Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by Count Lucanor »

Tegularius wrote: May 31st, 2022, 11:19 pm
Count Lucanor wrote: May 31st, 2022, 11:02 pm
Tegularius wrote: May 31st, 2022, 4:10 pm This is purely Putin's war in an effort to regain territory that once belonged to the Soviets. He noticed how relatively easy Crimea was so why not go for the whole enchilada. If Nato had not been expanding, would it seriously have made any difference for what he always wanted to do, planned to do? Consider the reasons given for the invasion namely denazification which is such a stupid absurdity impossible for anyone else to accept!

Putin's motives are clear having little to do with Nato's expansion which was never a military threat to Russia. Putin is nothing more than the 21st century's paperback version of Hitler, against which the West - in spite of all the sanctions - remains as wimpy as ever.
Sure, forget about history, politics and international relations of power, it all boils down to the demonic desires of a mad men vs the nice guys. That's just the caricature sketched out by the masters of propaganda, the same that will make a military operation with a civilian death toll of half a million look like an everyday walk in the park.
Oh, I haven't forgotten about history; history is being made right now with ramifications for just about everyone. In case you haven't noticed, it was Russia that invaded Ukraine in order to denazify it. What a stupid absurdity!

Maybe it's you who should wake up!
In case you haven't noticed, I never stated any belief that the cause behind the war is the "denazification" of Ukraine. I said what are the causes, read!! Putin will give justifications in the same way that Bush junior gave justifications for invading Iraq, which had very little to do with the real causes, that are to be found in geopolitics. Ultimately, this is a proxy war.
Tegularius wrote: May 31st, 2022, 11:19 pm Enlighten me! Did NATO ever start a war?
You must be kidding. NATO is a military alliance, not a diplomatic conference. Get serious or less naive.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
Tegularius
Posts: 712
Joined: February 6th, 2021, 5:27 am

Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by Tegularius »

Count Lucanor wrote: June 1st, 2022, 12:01 am
Tegularius wrote: May 31st, 2022, 11:19 pm
Count Lucanor wrote: May 31st, 2022, 11:02 pm
Tegularius wrote: May 31st, 2022, 4:10 pm This is purely Putin's war in an effort to regain territory that once belonged to the Soviets. He noticed how relatively easy Crimea was so why not go for the whole enchilada. If Nato had not been expanding, would it seriously have made any difference for what he always wanted to do, planned to do? Consider the reasons given for the invasion namely denazification which is such a stupid absurdity impossible for anyone else to accept!

Putin's motives are clear having little to do with Nato's expansion which was never a military threat to Russia. Putin is nothing more than the 21st century's paperback version of Hitler, against which the West - in spite of all the sanctions - remains as wimpy as ever.
Sure, forget about history, politics and international relations of power, it all boils down to the demonic desires of a mad men vs the nice guys. That's just the caricature sketched out by the masters of propaganda, the same that will make a military operation with a civilian death toll of half a million look like an everyday walk in the park.
Oh, I haven't forgotten about history; history is being made right now with ramifications for just about everyone. In case you haven't noticed, it was Russia that invaded Ukraine in order to denazify it. What a stupid absurdity!

Maybe it's you who should wake up!
In case you haven't noticed, I never stated any belief that the cause behind the war is the "denazification" of Ukraine. I said what are the causes, read!! Putin will give justifications in the same way that Bush junior gave justifications for invading Iraq, which had very little to do with the real causes, that are to be found in geopolitics. Ultimately, this is a proxy war.
Tegularius wrote: May 31st, 2022, 11:19 pm Enlighten me! Did NATO ever start a war?
You must be kidding. NATO is a military alliance, not a diplomatic conference. Get serious or less naive.
I asked did NATO ever start a war not whether or if it's a military alliance! Proxy war or not, you're almost certainly going to encounter steep resistance in being that brutal against civilians which acts as incentive for the defenders to keep fighting. But the Russians have always been like that! It's far less about geopolitics than Putin's ambition to reclaim at least part of the former Soviet empire. If it's simply all about geopolitics as compared to naked aggression why did Finland and Sweden, who were so far neutral, now decide to join. What were the geopolitical implications for them to apply NOW which normally they wouldn't have done?
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8375
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by Pattern-chaser »

UniversalAlien wrote: May 31st, 2022, 6:28 pm
Tegularius wrote: May 31st, 2022, 4:10 pm
Count Lucanor wrote: May 31st, 2022, 8:49 am At the end, Kennan and Mearsheimer will be proven right: not only they predicted what is currently happening, but the path chosen by the US to dominate Eurasia will backfire spectacularly: Russia will fall into the hands of China, and with India not being particularly friendly to the Western alliance, it will have lost Eurasia altogether. But it's an ongoing chess game, we have to see the next moves.
In the light of events, that seems a massive overstatement! Currently, Europe and the US can't even get the grain exports, which the Russians stole, moving out of Ukrainian ports to fend off starvation especially in 3rd world countries. Why? Is the US too afraid, too chickenshit, these would-be controllers of Eurasia, to perform what clearly isn't optional but supremely essential?

Why would Russia be concerned about Nato in the first place, since it's a defense organization certainly not willing to attack Russia. This is purely Putin's war in an effort to regain territory that once belonged to the Soviets. He noticed how relatively easy Crimea was so why not go for the whole enchilada. If Nato had not been expanding, would it seriously have made any difference for what he always wanted to do, planned to do? Consider the reasons given for the invasion namely denazification which is such a stupid absurdity impossible for anyone else to accept!

Putin's motives are clear having little to do with Nato's expansion which was never a military threat to Russia. Putin is nothing more than the 21st century's paperback version of Hitler, against which the West - in spite of all the sanctions - remains as wimpy as ever.
WELL SAID :!:

On a talk show recently the guest, a political analyst, commented that Biden's biggest mistake was telling Russia that American troops
would not get involved, no boots on the ground - Another words he said we will slap Russia on the wrist with economic sanctions and
some military hardware to Ukraine but we will not stop Russia :!:

I wasn't around when Hitler told the World what he was going to do - But history records the rest of the World {particularly the US,
Britain, and France} did little to stop what happened next, WWII.

This same pussyfooting with a wounded bear, Russia, led by an ex Communist Party functionary, Putin, who 'may' be suffering from early onset dementia, is more than dangerous - It is very dangerous :!:

Sometimes I wonder if those so-called geniuses who work for military and civilian 'think tanks' are so hung up in their own illusions
and delusions that they can no longer think straight and see the World for what is really happening :?:




“Sometimes people don't want to hear the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
It alarms me a little that the discussion of these matters calls for firm and resolute action against Putin, without considering the possible consequences. Yes, I agree that Putin's threats and actions should be countered. But I am also aware that, from where I sit, I can see that Putin might, if backed into a corner, use the nuclear, biological or chemical weapons he has at his disposal. Action against Putin that pushes him to such extreme action(s) is unsuccessful and undesirable action. Action that moves us away from WW3, and pushes Russia out of the Ukraine, is what we want, I think.

Then, when that is achieved, maybe we could look at the genocidal antics of Israel as it brutally digests the land, resources, and possessions of the Palestinian people?
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
Tegularius
Posts: 712
Joined: February 6th, 2021, 5:27 am

Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by Tegularius »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 1st, 2022, 7:07 am
UniversalAlien wrote: May 31st, 2022, 6:28 pm
Tegularius wrote: May 31st, 2022, 4:10 pm
Count Lucanor wrote: May 31st, 2022, 8:49 am At the end, Kennan and Mearsheimer will be proven right: not only they predicted what is currently happening, but the path chosen by the US to dominate Eurasia will backfire spectacularly: Russia will fall into the hands of China, and with India not being particularly friendly to the Western alliance, it will have lost Eurasia altogether. But it's an ongoing chess game, we have to see the next moves.
In the light of events, that seems a massive overstatement! Currently, Europe and the US can't even get the grain exports, which the Russians stole, moving out of Ukrainian ports to fend off starvation especially in 3rd world countries. Why? Is the US too afraid, too chickenshit, these would-be controllers of Eurasia, to perform what clearly isn't optional but supremely essential?

Why would Russia be concerned about Nato in the first place, since it's a defense organization certainly not willing to attack Russia. This is purely Putin's war in an effort to regain territory that once belonged to the Soviets. He noticed how relatively easy Crimea was so why not go for the whole enchilada. If Nato had not been expanding, would it seriously have made any difference for what he always wanted to do, planned to do? Consider the reasons given for the invasion namely denazification which is such a stupid absurdity impossible for anyone else to accept!

Putin's motives are clear having little to do with Nato's expansion which was never a military threat to Russia. Putin is nothing more than the 21st century's paperback version of Hitler, against which the West - in spite of all the sanctions - remains as wimpy as ever.
WELL SAID :!:

On a talk show recently the guest, a political analyst, commented that Biden's biggest mistake was telling Russia that American troops
would not get involved, no boots on the ground - Another words he said we will slap Russia on the wrist with economic sanctions and
some military hardware to Ukraine but we will not stop Russia :!:

I wasn't around when Hitler told the World what he was going to do - But history records the rest of the World {particularly the US,
Britain, and France} did little to stop what happened next, WWII.

This same pussyfooting with a wounded bear, Russia, led by an ex Communist Party functionary, Putin, who 'may' be suffering from early onset dementia, is more than dangerous - It is very dangerous :!:

Sometimes I wonder if those so-called geniuses who work for military and civilian 'think tanks' are so hung up in their own illusions
and delusions that they can no longer think straight and see the World for what is really happening :?:




“Sometimes people don't want to hear the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
It alarms me a little that the discussion of these matters calls for firm and resolute action against Putin, without considering the possible consequences. Yes, I agree that Putin's threats and actions should be countered. But I am also aware that, from where I sit, I can see that Putin might, if backed into a corner, use the nuclear, biological or chemical weapons he has at his disposal. Action against Putin that pushes him to such extreme action(s) is unsuccessful and undesirable action. Action that moves us away from WW3, and pushes Russia out of the Ukraine, is what we want, I think.
It should be clear to Putin...or made very clear to him that whatever he threatens to do can also be done to the whole of Russia. It's a two-way street and that's the default reality of it. Giving in to a bully isn't going to solve problems, only create more.

Putin had it made! He got Crimea with very few consequences initiated by the West which Putin already expected knowing that its leaders had a backbone made of jello; no one attacked Russia and clearly no one was going to or even considering it. He could have kept feeding his ultra parasitical oligarchs to purchase estates and mansions all over the West which amounted to wealth that belonged to the people of the country it came from. So what was the point of all this BS except his ambition to draw himself large in the history books as having reclaimed, at least partially, the Soviet empire!

The West still elicits all the symptoms of spinelessness in not going forth with a large fleet of warships ready and primed to fire if necessary to release the grains which never belonged to Russia but with which Putin attempts to blackmail the West. Based on the consequences for the world in withholding these grain exports it should have been noticed by the stupid, wimpy West that a very serious red line has been crossed.

If nothing else works, as true of Putin, the only way to really challenge an asshole is to become one.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
User avatar
Count Lucanor
Posts: 2318
Joined: May 6th, 2017, 5:08 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco
Location: Panama
Contact:

Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by Count Lucanor »

Tegularius wrote: June 1st, 2022, 1:05 am I asked did NATO ever start a war not whether or if it's a military alliance!
The US is a leading member of NATO and it has started many wars for itself or with the explicit support of NATO. NATO invaded Afghanistan in 2001. It also intervened in Libya in 2011. If as you claim, NATO was a peaceful defense force that only reacts to attacks, why then the need to expand it? To defend from whom? If your answer is Russia, then you will be proving my point.
Tegularius wrote: June 1st, 2022, 1:05 am Proxy war or not, you're almost certainly going to encounter steep resistance in being that brutal against civilians which acts as incentive for the defenders to keep fighting.
No doubt Palestinians and nations invaded by the US and its allies will put up a good fight before being submitted.
Tegularius wrote: June 1st, 2022, 1:05 amIf it's simply all about geopolitics as compared to naked aggression why did Finland and Sweden, who were so far neutral, now decide to join. What were the geopolitical implications for them to apply NOW which normally they wouldn't have done?
For the same reason: it is in line with the objectives of NATO's expansion. Both Finland and Sweden are NATO partners since they joined the EU in 1995. They are not neutral since then.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
heracleitos
Posts: 439
Joined: April 11th, 2022, 9:41 pm

Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by heracleitos »

Count Lucanor wrote: June 1st, 2022, 11:11 pm If your answer is Russia, then you will be proving my point.
Now that Romania is a member of NATO, you get things like this:
U.S. reinforcement troops to arrive in Romania, more expected

The ministry said a part of the squadron, which will be named Task Force (TF) Cougar, will enter Romania at around 2000 GMT and drive across the country to the Mihail Kogalniceanu military base in the eastern county of Constanta.

U.S. forces have used the Mihail Kogalniceanu air base on the Black Sea since 1999. Romania, a NATO member since 2004, also hosts a ballistic missile defense system.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us ... 2022-02-09
Ukraine joining NATO would mean NATO building military bases in Ukraine, right across the border with Russia.

Russia does not want that.
Ukraine did not care.
So, Russia told Ukraine that if they do not care, they would make them care.
Ukraine still did not care.
...
The rest is history.
User avatar
Count Lucanor
Posts: 2318
Joined: May 6th, 2017, 5:08 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco
Location: Panama
Contact:

Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by Count Lucanor »

heracleitos wrote: June 2nd, 2022, 12:27 am
Count Lucanor wrote: June 1st, 2022, 11:11 pm If your answer is Russia, then you will be proving my point.
Now that Romania is a member of NATO, you get things like this:
U.S. reinforcement troops to arrive in Romania, more expected

The ministry said a part of the squadron, which will be named Task Force (TF) Cougar, will enter Romania at around 2000 GMT and drive across the country to the Mihail Kogalniceanu military base in the eastern county of Constanta.

U.S. forces have used the Mihail Kogalniceanu air base on the Black Sea since 1999. Romania, a NATO member since 2004, also hosts a ballistic missile defense system.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us ... 2022-02-09
Ukraine joining NATO would mean NATO building military bases in Ukraine, right across the border with Russia.

Russia does not want that.
Ukraine did not care.
So, Russia told Ukraine that if they do not care, they would make them care.
Ukraine still did not care.
...
The rest is history.
Note also that the Monroe Doctrine is in effect. The US has not tolerated, nor will tolerate in the Americas, anything remotely close to a military alliance with foreign powers. But it demands from Russia that it accepts military bases one step from the Red Square. Put up resistance to that and you are a mad man with demonic desires.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
User avatar
UniversalAlien
Posts: 1596
Joined: March 20th, 2012, 9:37 pm
Contact:

Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by UniversalAlien »

Count Lucanor wrote: June 2nd, 2022, 11:47 am
heracleitos wrote: June 2nd, 2022, 12:27 am
Count Lucanor wrote: June 1st, 2022, 11:11 pm If your answer is Russia, then you will be proving my point.
Now that Romania is a member of NATO, you get things like this:
U.S. reinforcement troops to arrive in Romania, more expected

The ministry said a part of the squadron, which will be named Task Force (TF) Cougar, will enter Romania at around 2000 GMT and drive across the country to the Mihail Kogalniceanu military base in the eastern county of Constanta.

U.S. forces have used the Mihail Kogalniceanu air base on the Black Sea since 1999. Romania, a NATO member since 2004, also hosts a ballistic missile defense system.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us ... 2022-02-09
Ukraine joining NATO would mean NATO building military bases in Ukraine, right across the border with Russia.

Russia does not want that.
Ukraine did not care.
So, Russia told Ukraine that if they do not care, they would make them care.
Ukraine still did not care.
...
The rest is history.
Note also that the Monroe Doctrine is in effect. The US has not tolerated, nor will tolerate in the Americas, anything remotely close to a military alliance with foreign powers. But it demands from Russia that it accepts military bases one step from the Red Square. Put up resistance to that and you are a mad man with demonic desires.
WHAT :?: - Ever heard of this small island just south of Florida {USA} called CUBA :?:
{That's the island that caused President Kennedy to challenge Russia {the old Soviet Union, just like Putin wants} to get the missiles
out of or WWIII :!:

Not to mention Venezuela in South America.

I can't stop you from trolling this post, but at least get your facts right :idea:



“Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate.
[Inaugural Address, January 20 1961]”
― John Fitzgerald Kennedy


“Mankind must put an end to war - or war will put an end to mankind.
[Address before the United Nations, September 25 1961]”
― John F. Kennedy
User avatar
Count Lucanor
Posts: 2318
Joined: May 6th, 2017, 5:08 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco
Location: Panama
Contact:

Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by Count Lucanor »

UniversalAlien wrote: June 2nd, 2022, 6:13 pm
Count Lucanor wrote: June 2nd, 2022, 11:47 am Note also that the Monroe Doctrine is in effect. The US has not tolerated, nor will tolerate in the Americas, anything remotely close to a military alliance with foreign powers. But it demands from Russia that it accepts military bases one step from the Red Square. Put up resistance to that and you are a mad man with demonic desires.
WHAT :?: - Ever heard of this small island just south of Florida {USA} called CUBA :?:
{That's the island that caused President Kennedy to challenge Russia {the old Soviet Union, just like Putin wants} to get the missiles
out of or WWIII :!:

Not to mention Venezuela in South America.

I can't stop you from trolling this post, but at least get your facts right :idea:
So you're implying that the US was actually very happy or indifferent to the presence of a Soviet-friendly Cuba UNTIL missiles were installed there by Khrushchev. That has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I have heard in quite a while. Never heard of Bay of Pigs? Never heard of the counter-revolutionary operations against Cuba? Never heard of an embargo?

It is ironic, to the point of becoming cynical, that you mention the Cuban missile crisis to defend your views against mine, when it is actually a very clear illustration of the point I'm making. Kennedy was effectively enacting the Monroe Doctrine there. As a good US politician, he was hostile to the Cuban regime even before being president.
I want to talk with you tonight about the most glaring failure of American foreign policy today - about a disaster that threatens the security of the whole Western Hemisphere - about a Communist menace that has been permitted to arise under our very noses...

[...]This is a critical situation - to find so dangerous an enemy on our very doorstep. The American people want to know how this was permitted to happen - how the iron curtain could have advanced almost to our front yard.
(REMARKS OF SENATOR JOHN F. KENNEDY AT DEMOCRATIC DINNER, CINCINNATI, OHIO, OCTOBER 6, 1960).

You could take those words, update names and locations, and put them in Putin's mouth. Not much difference.

So yes, just as the US will not tolerate (even willing to start WWIII) any military menace near its borders, Russia will not tolerate such threats, either. That makes sense, but the cognitive dissonance created by your heartfelt desire to demonize the political rivals of the US and NATO will not allow you to see it.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
heracleitos
Posts: 439
Joined: April 11th, 2022, 9:41 pm

Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by heracleitos »

Count Lucanor wrote: June 2nd, 2022, 8:12 pm So yes, just as the US will not tolerate (even willing to start WWIII) any military menace near its borders, Russia will not tolerate such threats, either.
The Russian Federation would always have had to some day push back.

They could also have waited for NATO to plant the American flag on top of the Kremlin, but they seem to have decided to act a bit earlier.

The EU's feeble attempt at economically and financially boycotting the Russian Federation will only further cement the new geopolitical reality.

The EU want to "pay" for oil, gas, and other supplies, with Euros into frozen bank accounts from which the Russian Federation cannot spend. How ridiculous! Who the hell would want that kind of Euros for their oil and gas?

The solution, for the Russian Federation, is to cut off and fully arrest all direct trade with the EU, and to find new customers elsewhere.

Why even give the EU time to adjust?

If I were the Russian Federation, I would cut off absolutely all gas supplies in September, just before the onset of the winter months.

Ukraine is disrespectful and arrogant, because the EU is, and ultimately, because somewhere in the background the USA are instigating all of them to be disrespectful and arrogant towards the Russian Federation.

I expect China to start pushing back too, because that is also long overdue. Now the time has come to duly rein in the arrogance.
Tegularius
Posts: 712
Joined: February 6th, 2021, 5:27 am

Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by Tegularius »

Tegularius wrote: June 1st, 2022, 1:05 amI asked did NATO ever start a war not whether or if it's a military alliance!
Count Lucanor wrote: June 1st, 2022, 11:11 pmThe US is a leading member of NATO and it has started many wars for itself or with the explicit support of NATO. NATO invaded Afghanistan in 2001. It also intervened in Libya in 2011. If as you claim, NATO was a peaceful defense force that only reacts to attacks, why then the need to expand it?
You can’t come along with better examples? Russia is only reacting against NATO's expansion!?

It's expansion comes from those who want to join as is happening with Sweden and Finland who now want inclusion considering Russia's hooliganism. Whatever Russia expected worked in reverse causing the expansion!

The U.S. was attacked in 2001 and the NATO mandate triggered accordingly. If it hadn’t been activated, the NATO protocols would have been useless. Had this not happened, Afghanistan would not have been attacked which strictly speaking it wasn’t. It was the terrorist groups in Afghanistan that were focused on, not the civilian population as is happening in Ukraine. Look at Afghanistan now under Taliban rule! Who do you think most people would prefer back in control...especially the women!

Obviously such an attack as happened against the US initiated the expected response by its NATO allies conforming to their mandate.

Admittedly NATO’S operation in Libya is more dubious and there is still much debate about it but to claim it as some kind of qualifying precursor to Russia’s transgression against Ukraine is obscene considering what’s happening there now and not least, what they did in Syria.
Tegularius wrote: June 1st, 2022, 1:05 amIf it's simply all about geopolitics as compared to naked aggression why did Finland and Sweden, who were so far neutral, now decide to join. What were the geopolitical implications for them to apply NOW which normally they wouldn't have done?
Count Lucanor wrote: June 1st, 2022, 11:11 pmFor the same reason: it is in line with the objectives of NATO's expansion. Both Finland and Sweden are NATO partners since they joined the EU in 1995. They are not neutral since then.
Being part of the EU it’s unlikely they can be completely neutral. It would be a contradiction if that were so! However, their military and politics has so far been independent of NATO, which, based on Russia’s thoroughly unjustified attack on Ukraine, they now wish to understandably rescind since Putin’s Russia has clearly gone rogue.

Russia has a massive inferiority complex. It's Putin's agenda to set right by making Russia Great Again by attempting to regain its former boundaries. Being subject to such disorder on a national level, as exemplified in their news and media channels, they will project their own deficiencies as caused by others. To boot, they have an overriding Nazi neurosis ready to thrust that term on anyone they wish to dehumanize and treat accordingly which explains the atrocities in Ukraine and again demonstrated in their media sick with hatred. The Russian army has always consisted of murderers of civilians, torturers, and most egregiously rapists. Wherever they are the story is always the same.

This is not news to the countries who now want to join NATO even though it may come as a surprise to you.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
User avatar
Count Lucanor
Posts: 2318
Joined: May 6th, 2017, 5:08 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco
Location: Panama
Contact:

Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by Count Lucanor »

Tegularius wrote: June 3rd, 2022, 1:32 am
Tegularius wrote: June 1st, 2022, 1:05 amI asked did NATO ever start a war not whether or if it's a military alliance!
Count Lucanor wrote: June 1st, 2022, 11:11 pmThe US is a leading member of NATO and it has started many wars for itself or with the explicit support of NATO. NATO invaded Afghanistan in 2001. It also intervened in Libya in 2011. If as you claim, NATO was a peaceful defense force that only reacts to attacks, why then the need to expand it?
You can’t come along with better examples? Russia is only reacting against NATO's expansion!?
You have not been reading:
Count Lucanor wrote:In their promotion of NATO's expansion, Kissinger and Brzezinski have said that without Europe, USA would just be an island between other powers. Following the ideas of Halford Mackinder, they have said that the Eurasian continent is key for strategic world domination. Russians are no fools, of course, and they have come up with their own version of Eurasianism, which includes a Russian version of the Monroe Doctrine (the US will not allow military bases from other country anywhere in the Americas and will go to war to enforce that doctrine, as the Cuban missile crisis showed). What is at stake here is then pure geopolitics, which only knows of national interests, not morals. All actors will do what they find practical for their pursued interests, so does NATO and so does Russia. Against the advice of strategic consultants (Kennan, Mearsheimer), however, the US and its allies have chosen the path of expanding NATO, effectively challenging and provoking Russia, which at some time after the fall of the USSR did want to be integrated to Western Europe (one point you hear Putin talk often is how Russia was ignored and mistreated by Western powers during this approach).
Tegularius wrote: June 3rd, 2022, 1:32 am It's expansion comes from those who want to join as is happening with Sweden and Finland who now want inclusion considering Russia's hooliganism. Whatever Russia expected worked in reverse causing the expansion!
NATO can consider Russia's stance as hooliganism as much as Russia can consider NATO's stance as hooliganism. These are world powers with conflicting interests. One pushes forward, the other one pushes back. Is that too difficult to understand? NATO is not a diplomatic organization, it is a belligerent military alliance.
Tegularius wrote: June 3rd, 2022, 1:32 am Had this not happened, Afghanistan would not have been attacked which strictly speaking it wasn’t. It was the terrorist groups in Afghanistan that were focused on, not the civilian population as is happening in Ukraine.
You seem to be an easy target for propaganda. The fact is that all wars kill civilians, and to say that "collateral damage" happens "inadvertently" is purely a PR manouver.
More than a decade ago, the U.S. military recognized that when NATO and U.S. air strikes inadvertently killed civilians in Afghanistan, those strikes diminished U.S. standing with ordinary Afghans, making it harder to win the war. The U.S. military then focused on reducing harm to civilians. Thus, in June 2009, General Stanley McChrystal, who was alarmed by thenumber of civilians being killed by U.S.airstrikes in Afghanistan,ordered that the rules of engagement for using air power be tight, so that the risk to civilians would be minimized. When on 17 July 2009, two weeks after the publication of McChrystal's directive, 13 civilians were wounded and at least five were killed in a U.S. close air support strike in Kandahar, Afghanistan, General McChrystal was livid. He said, "What is it we don't understand? We're going to lose this f***ing war if we don't stop killing civilians."

"From 2017 through 2019, with the war in a long stalemate, the U.S. relaxed its rules of engagement for airstrikes. As a consequence, civilian casualties due to airstrikes increased from 2017 through 2019. n 2019, more Afghan civilians were killed in airstrikes than at any time since early 2002."
https://media.carnegie.org/filer_public ... 7_2020.pdf
Tegularius wrote: June 3rd, 2022, 1:32 am Admittedly NATO’S operation in Libya is more dubious and there is still much debate about it but to claim it as some kind of qualifying precursor to Russia’s transgression against Ukraine is obscene considering what’s happening there now and not least, what they did in Syria.
You're still trying to find moral justifications in acts of war, I don't. Some are worst than others, and the US and its allies are certainly not exempt of committing atrocities in their trangressions. They have also made sure they cannot be held accountable for their crimes by any international court.
https://archive.globalpolicy.org/intern ... e-icc.html
Tegularius wrote: June 3rd, 2022, 1:32 am Russia has a massive inferiority complex. It's Putin's agenda to set right by making Russia Great Again by attempting to regain its former boundaries. Being subject to such disorder on a national level, as exemplified in their news and media channels, they will project their own deficiencies as caused by others. To boot, they have an overriding Nazi neurosis ready to thrust that term on anyone they wish to dehumanize and treat accordingly which explains the atrocities in Ukraine and again demonstrated in their media sick with hatred. The Russian army has always consisted of murderers of civilians, torturers, and most egregiously rapists. Wherever they are the story is always the same.
Your statements do not come from objective analysis, but pure prejudice. Russians are demons and the US and NATO are angelical envoys descended from heaven. Whenever Russians do something, it is because of some essential evil, whenever the US does the same or worst, there are always reasonable explanations, because...well, they can only be the good guys. You can see it at the movies, right?
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6136
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by Consul »

The current geographical situation: 125,000 km2 (~20%) of Ukraine occupied by Russia!

Image

For comparison: If 125,000 km2 of Germany or Italy were occupied by Russia:

Image

Image

SOURCE: https://katapult-magazin.de/de/artikel/ ... er-zu-viel
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
User avatar
UniversalAlien
Posts: 1596
Joined: March 20th, 2012, 9:37 pm
Contact:

Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by UniversalAlien »

Image
In Russia we only had two TV channels. Channel One was propaganda. Channel Two consisted of a KGB officer telling you: Turn back at once to Channel One.
-Yakov Smirnoff
The problem with Russia is not corruption per se, or even Putin per se. Russian government is not corrupt because Vladimir Putin has absolute power. Russian government has been corrupt and will always be as long as anyone has absolute power.
- Robert Zubrin
When men are arrested without any legal basis and for political reasons, it's merely a routine, everyday occurrence in Russia, and hardly anyone has any sympathy.
-Alexei Navalny
There were no strategic mistakes that could affect Russia's history and it further development. No, there were no such mistakes. Tactical errors were made in some less significant options, problems and so on. But, on the whole, Russia embarked on a correct path and it changed.
-Boris Yeltsin
User avatar
UniversalAlien
Posts: 1596
Joined: March 20th, 2012, 9:37 pm
Contact:

Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by UniversalAlien »

"Russian chess grandmaster Kasparov criticizes Russia, calls support for Ukraine
'Bankrupt Putin's war machine. Freeze & seize Russia's finances & those of him and his gang,' former chess champion says"
Image
ANKARA

Russian chess grandmaster Garry Kasparov on Thursday criticized Russian military intervention and called support for Ukraine.

"Support Ukraine militarily, immediately, everything but boots on the ground. All weapons, intel, cyber," the former world chess champion wrote on his Twitter account.

"Bankrupt Putin's war machine. Freeze & seize Russia's finances & those of him and his gang," he added.

Kasparov said Russia should be kicked out of every international and financial institution in the world, including Interpol.

"Ban all elements of Putin's global propaganda machine. Turn them off, shut them down, send them home. Stop helping the dictator spread lies & hate," he wrote.

He also said all countries' ambassadors should be recalled from Russia, adding, "There is no point in talking. The new unified message is 'stop or be isolated completely'."

Kasparov, who became the youngest undisputed world chess champion in 1985, at the age of 22, argued that Russian oil and natural gas should be replaced.

He advocated that the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) should be pressured to increase their crude oil production.

"Acknowledge there will be costs, sacrifices. We waited too long, the price is high, but it will only get higher. It's time to fight," he added.
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/russian ... ne/2513893
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Politics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021