What makes America Great?

Have philosophical discussions about politics, law, and government.
Featured Article: Definition of Freedom - What Freedom Means to Me
gad-fly
Posts: 1133
Joined: October 23rd, 2019, 4:48 pm

What makes America Great?

Post by gad-fly »

By America I mean the United States of America.

There is a Book Club topic "What makes a country big?" At the risk of cluttering, my intention is to bring out the United States as a specific and typical example.

My basic premise: if the US is great, first of all, it must afford to be great. As the Confucian saying goes: Sustenance goes before valor, or food before being good. If the US, to survive, must be mean, you cannot blame her for that.

Yours is a general compliment when you say the US is great. It does not imply that the UK (Great Britain), China, or even Russia is less. No offense please. "US is great" is an expression of feeling, Like "I love you, Dad". Not exactly, though. Because "US is great" is more subject to contest. "I don't think so?" What has my love for my dad got to do with you? Fortunately, this title avoids that by not asking whether the US is great or not. It asks for reasons but not positions: What makes it great? You may comment on what make it not great too, of course, and drawing you conclusion in the end.

I suggest the US is great functional on various factors: size, geography, history, culture, idealism, tradition, foundation, and so on. I shall leave plenty of room to fill in and elaborate, but let me finish by what I have learnt from history: What makes her Great is because she is riding on the shoulders of giants. Not every country can do that. Indeed, most don't.
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: What makes America Great?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

gad-fly wrote: June 17th, 2022, 3:13 pm What makes her Great is because she is riding on the shoulders of giants.
I think she is 'great' because she is riding on the shoulders of tyrants. I.e. she is following all the imperial powers that preceded her. Empire = greatness? 🤔 Perhaps that's what "great" means, or is intended to mean?
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
gad-fly
Posts: 1133
Joined: October 23rd, 2019, 4:48 pm

Re: What makes America Great?

Post by gad-fly »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 18th, 2022, 7:19 am
gad-fly wrote: June 17th, 2022, 3:13 pm What makes her Great is because she is riding on the shoulders of giants.
I think she is 'great' because she is riding on the shoulders of tyrants. I.e. she is following all the imperial powers that preceded her. Empire = greatness? 🤔 Perhaps that's what "great" means, or is intended to mean?
As an adjective, anonyms of Great is Small or Mean. Argument for and against the case can be made by comparison, rather than by cherry picking. She is great because others are not, on such specific points.

By giants, I can refer to the Grecian states of democracy, Rome founded as a republic and the banishment of its kings, the Roman Forum, the French Revolution, and the horror and mistakes following colonization by European powers. America devolves not by copying the powers that be. The founding fathers chose to do the opposite by following their ideal, most of which are acquired.

I can find no tyrants in American history. Putin has been referred to as a tyrant.
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: What makes America Great?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

The tyrants I refer to are all the preceding empires.
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
gad-fly
Posts: 1133
Joined: October 23rd, 2019, 4:48 pm

Re: What makes America Great?

Post by gad-fly »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 18th, 2022, 2:10 pm The tyrants I refer to are all the preceding empires.

Yours is a thoughtful observation. Empires were around before and after America was born. Her roots would absorb nutrients from such soil, as from the soil of the UK with its Magna Carta, and from the French Revolution. Slavery, for example, was banned later than in the UK. The same applies to the atrocious treatment of her natives.

What makes her great is her capacity and her pace to learn from the mistakes of being mean and ugly, quickly and decisively. An astounding turn-round from bottom to top, in a land of opportunity.

Hopefully, Canada can copy her to recover from the cruelty of the residential schools. Perhaps, some day, China can be great too. In this respect, they may also stand on the shoulders of giants, though not now.
stevie
Posts: 762
Joined: July 19th, 2021, 11:08 am

Re: What makes America Great?

Post by stevie »

gad-fly wrote: June 17th, 2022, 3:13 pm By America I mean the United States of America.

There is a Book Club topic "What makes a country big?" At the risk of cluttering, my intention is to bring out the United States as a specific and typical example.

My basic premise: if the US is great, first of all, it must afford to be great. As the Confucian saying goes: Sustenance goes before valor, or food before being good. If the US, to survive, must be mean, you cannot blame her for that.

Yours is a general compliment when you say the US is great. It does not imply that the UK (Great Britain), China, or even Russia is less. No offense please. "US is great" is an expression of feeling, Like "I love you, Dad". Not exactly, though. Because "US is great" is more subject to contest. "I don't think so?" What has my love for my dad got to do with you? Fortunately, this title avoids that by not asking whether the US is great or not. It asks for reasons but not positions: What makes it great? You may comment on what make it not great too, of course, and drawing you conclusion in the end.

I suggest the US is great functional on various factors: size, geography, history, culture, idealism, tradition, foundation, and so on. I shall leave plenty of room to fill in and elaborate, but let me finish by what I have learnt from history: What makes her Great is because she is riding on the shoulders of giants. Not every country can do that. Indeed, most don't.
The rational answer to the topic question is: ignorance.
The compassionate answer to the topic question is: pride about and/or love of one's American homeland and its native culture
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
gad-fly
Posts: 1133
Joined: October 23rd, 2019, 4:48 pm

Re: What makes America Great?

Post by gad-fly »

stevie wrote: June 19th, 2022, 4:33 pm
The rational answer to the topic question is: ignorance.
The compassionate answer to the topic question is: pride about and/or love of one's American homeland and its native culture
ignorance would deny one from taking a stand.

Pride and love of one's homeland would induce one to be patriotic, not chauvinistic. Chauvin said; My country, right or wrong. If he were Russian today, he would defend the "special military operation", not because it is great, but because you know what. Rationally it would appear that you are almost more confused than him.

What makes America great? Nothing? Fine, and thanks for making it clear.
gad-fly
Posts: 1133
Joined: October 23rd, 2019, 4:48 pm

Re: What makes America Great?

Post by gad-fly »

stevie wrote: June 19th, 2022, 4:33 pm
The rational answer to the topic question is: ignorance.
The compassionate answer to the topic question is: pride about and/or love of one's American homeland and its native culture
The question "What makes America great?" is premised on the recognition that America is great, in the present tense. Nevertheless, you can argue form the opposite end why she is not great. To mention ignorance as the reason is a sarcastic remark.

Great is often confused with large, forceful, and powerful. Is Greater London Council, now demised. great? No. Is Great Britain great? Hard to say.

Great has to do with influence, respect, admiration, and moral advancement, like "grace" which goes beyond beauty.

You can argue that America was mean and even evil, in the way it treated natives called "Red Indians" and blacks "Negro". I think that America, in general, is great since the Second World War. The world should be thankful for her being around.

What makes her great? I can think of quite a few good reasons, but I am not about here to elaborate. It is, of course, easier to engage in nit-picking.
User avatar
3017Metaphysician
Posts: 1621
Joined: July 9th, 2021, 8:59 am

Re: What makes America Great?

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

gad-fly wrote: June 17th, 2022, 3:13 pm By America I mean the United States of America.

There is a Book Club topic "What makes a country big?" At the risk of cluttering, my intention is to bring out the United States as a specific and typical example.

My basic premise: if the US is great, first of all, it must afford to be great. As the Confucian saying goes: Sustenance goes before valor, or food before being good. If the US, to survive, must be mean, you cannot blame her for that.

Yours is a general compliment when you say the US is great. It does not imply that the UK (Great Britain), China, or even Russia is less. No offense please. "US is great" is an expression of feeling, Like "I love you, Dad". Not exactly, though. Because "US is great" is more subject to contest. "I don't think so?" What has my love for my dad got to do with you? Fortunately, this title avoids that by not asking whether the US is great or not. It asks for reasons but not positions: What makes it great? You may comment on what make it not great too, of course, and drawing you conclusion in the end.

I suggest the US is great functional on various factors: size, geography, history, culture, idealism, tradition, foundation, and so on. I shall leave plenty of room to fill in and elaborate, but let me finish by what I have learnt from history: What makes her Great is because she is riding on the shoulders of giants. Not every country can do that. Indeed, most don't.
GF!

In a word: Freedom.
“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” "Spooky Action at a Distance"
― Albert Einstein
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: What makes America Great?

Post by LuckyR »

You mean besides Trump?
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
3017Metaphysician
Posts: 1621
Joined: July 9th, 2021, 8:59 am

Re: What makes America Great?

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

LuckyR wrote: August 29th, 2022, 6:49 pm You mean besides Trump?
Hahaha good one! That begs the question(s) though, what makes America a cult of personality, or wait, a cult of criminality(?).

I think that qualifies as a legitimate topic in the political sciences... .

On the plus side, let freedom ring! Otherwise known as: Life Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness!
“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” "Spooky Action at a Distance"
― Albert Einstein
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: What makes America Great?

Post by LuckyR »

3017Metaphysician wrote: August 30th, 2022, 9:29 am
LuckyR wrote: August 29th, 2022, 6:49 pm You mean besides Trump?
Hahaha good one! That begs the question(s) though, what makes America a cult of personality, or wait, a cult of criminality(?).

I think that qualifies as a legitimate topic in the political sciences... .

On the plus side, let freedom ring! Otherwise known as: Life Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness!
Wrong way of looking at it. Every country (or any statistically significant random group) will have a subset of those vulnerable to being under the influence of strong personalities. What differs is the availability of these personalities and whether they can also get support among the more savvy to get to 51% (or in countries with electoral colleges) in the high 40s.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
3017Metaphysician
Posts: 1621
Joined: July 9th, 2021, 8:59 am

Re: What makes America Great?

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

LuckyR wrote: August 31st, 2022, 1:33 pm
3017Metaphysician wrote: August 30th, 2022, 9:29 am
LuckyR wrote: August 29th, 2022, 6:49 pm You mean besides Trump?
Hahaha good one! That begs the question(s) though, what makes America a cult of personality, or wait, a cult of criminality(?).

I think that qualifies as a legitimate topic in the political sciences... .

On the plus side, let freedom ring! Otherwise known as: Life Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness!
Wrong way of looking at it. Every country (or any statistically significant random group) will have a subset of those vulnerable to being under the influence of strong personalities. What differs is the availability of these personalities and whether they can also get support among the more savvy to get to 51% (or in countries with electoral colleges) in the high 40s.
Not a wrong way of looking at it at the least. As far as cult's of personalities/criminalities, things like radicalization, extremism, and stability, all relate to political/social sciences dealing within systems of governance and power, and the analysis of political activities, political thought, political behavior, constitutions and laws.

Lessons learned and teaching moments were plentiful during the Trump admin.. It was primarily lessons in what not to do. It called into question expectation levels from those in leadership roles. Leaders take the oath's to uphold many of those foregoing important aspects of governing. And as you may know, cult's of personality seek to manipulate individuals by projecting false ideologies for the purposes of personal power and greed. It's feeding off the ignorant. And the majority are all ignorant to a greater or lessor degree, from the basic fact we put faith in our leaders to do the right thing. We learned what the warning signs are now. Hopefully we won't forget.

I would agree that there will always be cult's of personalities ready to take aim on the ignorant. But remember, no matter who is in office, some element of faith will always be required. In the alternative, it's okay to vote based on the lessor of two evils.

That said, if you are suggesting one should always do their homework before voting, I would take no exceptions!
“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” "Spooky Action at a Distance"
― Albert Einstein
AverageBozo
Posts: 502
Joined: May 11th, 2021, 11:20 am

Re: What makes America Great?

Post by AverageBozo »

Military might.

This is to say with respect to greatness that is awesome, large and bears gravitas.

As was noted, sustenance comes before valor. And I would add before greatness. It is military forcefulness that attains and maintains sustenance above lesser countries.

Many wonderful things that are posited as reasons for America’s greatness cannot be guaranteed without the ability to apply, or threaten to apply, physical force.

Of course one could cite wealth over might, as in the application of economic force to other nations. However, wealth must be achieved by means of the military’s dominant position over both allies and foes.

Ironically, it takes wealth to build a strong military. And just as the military can obtain more riches, wealth can buy more physical power.

But in the final analysis it is power per se that inspires others to respect America’s greatness.

Perhaps economic power v physical power is a matter of the carrot and the stick, I.e. buying favor from others rather than forcing compliance by others.

But just as avoidance of pain is a stronger individual survival instinct than the gathering of pleasure, national interests are keen to avoid the wrath of an impressive military power.

Or maybe it’s a matter of the chicken or the egg.

Just to be sure, military might, though it makes America great, is not what I like best about America in that sense of greatness.
User avatar
3017Metaphysician
Posts: 1621
Joined: July 9th, 2021, 8:59 am

Re: What makes America Great?

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

AverageBozo wrote: August 31st, 2022, 3:19 pm Military might.

This is to say with respect to greatness that is awesome, large and bears gravitas.

As was noted, sustenance comes before valor. And I would add before greatness. It is military forcefulness that attains and maintains sustenance above lesser countries.

Many wonderful things that are posited as reasons for America’s greatness cannot be guaranteed without the ability to apply, or threaten to apply, physical force.

Of course one could cite wealth over might, as in the application of economic force to other nations. However, wealth must be achieved by means of the military’s dominant position over both allies and foes.

Ironically, it takes wealth to build a strong military. And just as the military can obtain more riches, wealth can buy more physical power.

But in the final analysis it is power per se that inspires others to respect America’s greatness.

Perhaps economic power v physical power is a matter of the carrot and the stick, I.e. buying favor from others rather than forcing compliance by others.

But just as avoidance of pain is a stronger individual survival instinct than the gathering of pleasure, national interests are keen to avoid the wrath of an impressive military power.

Or maybe it’s a matter of the chicken or the egg.

Just to be sure, military might, though it makes America great, is not what I like best about America in that sense of greatness.
AB!

Thank you for that dose of reality. It's sad to admit, but military power has many advantages when it comes to freedom. Albeit more of an existential human condition thing (which is sad in its own rite), I agree it's a necessary evil and is something we may not like best about America...
“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” "Spooky Action at a Distance"
― Albert Einstein
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Politics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021