What Does the Bible Actually Say about Abortion?

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UniversalAlien
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What Does the Bible Actually Say about Abortion?

Post by UniversalAlien »

Because it is such a contentious issue today politically I am putting this in the Politics rather then the religious forum section.

"What Does the Bible Actually Say about Abortion?"

Many conservative Christians use scripture to justify their positions but ignore Jesus’s teachings on humanity and equality
BY MICHAEL COREN
IN 2020, A UNITED METHODIST pastor in Birmingham, Alabama, named Dave Barnhart wrote something on social media, about critics of abortion, that provoked quite a reaction from all sides of the debate.

He said that the “unborn” are a very convenient group to organize around because they don’t make any demands of you and they’re not morally complicated—unlike those in prison, those with addictions, or those trapped in poverty. “You can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power, or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing, or making reparations to anyone. They are, in short, the perfect people to love if you want to claim you love Jesus but actually dislike people who breathe.”
It’s a strong and determined statement. It does seem that those who describe themselves as pro-life are extremely selective in their areas of compassion. That, at least, is true of a great many within the movement. Indeed, by their increasing support for extreme conservative politicians and policies, they’re not merely indifferent to Christian causes but actively hostile toward them. But, first, let’s look at what Jesus and the scriptures actually say about the subject of abortion. You may be surprised.

AS WITH HOMOSEXUALITY and a number of other topics that seem to so energize and enrage conservative Christians, abortion is hardly mentioned in the Bible.

There is ample evidence to show that abortion was practised in the ancient world—in Egypt, for example, as far back as sixteen centuries before the birth of Christ. What we don’t find are many prohibitions against it. Pro-lifers will point to the command of God in Genesis, “Whoever sheds the blood of a human, by a human shall that person’s blood be shed; for in his own image God made humankind.” So, murder is punished by murder. Which is a strict legal code for an ancient people living without police, a sophisticated justice system, or any of the social or prohibitive structures taken for granted in modern times. But this passage is about one adult killing another, and it has nothing at all to do with abortion.
Another oft-used quote, and another that mentions the womb, is in Psalm 139. “For it was you who formed my inward parts; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; that I know very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes beheld my unformed substance. In your book were written all the days that were formed for me, when none of them as yet existed.”

Lyrical and beautiful stuff. But, again, what is being said? This passage is surely about God’s power, but it doesn’t say anything that is at all specific or exclusive to the fetus. The Christian belief is that God knows all, knows us, knows who and what we are. Knows, remember, the woman who is desperate, poor, young, and alone—who can’t afford to have a child, who was raped or abused, who is terrified, who has no health care, who is crying out, after much thought and consideration, to terminate her pregnancy. Knows the goodness and purity in her heart and the harshness of those who condemn. Put simply, the ancient, biblical statement that God is all-powerful has no relevance to the rights of women over their own bodies.
Exodus 21:22 is, however, a part of the Bible that actually does mention the fetus. “When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined what the woman’s husband demands, paying as much as the judges determine. If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”

This is fascinating because it outlines specific punishments for specific crimes. If a woman is hurt in a struggle and then has a miscarriage, the penalty is a fine, a mere financial payment. But, if there is further harm, likely meaning the woman has long-term and serious injuries or even dies, then the culprit could be killed. In other words, the life and well-being of the woman, the mother, is of much greater significance than those of her unborn child.

Reluctant as I am to say it, experience leads me to conclude that the anti-abortion movement certainly doesn’t always indicate a Christ-based love for others. The humiliation and degradation inflicted on women outside of clinics is genuinely shocking. I’ve watched protesters howling at vulnerable women walking into clinics, calling them “murderers” and predicting that “God will not forgive” them. Then there are the people who insist on distributing millions of leaflets showing graphic, bloody pictures of abortions, even putting them through the front doors of private homes where it’s likely that children will see them.

While they claim to be nonviolent, it’s difficult to be convinced. Violence has certainly taken place, and it’s included kidnapping, assault, attempted murder, murder, arson, bombings, and stalking. Anti-abortion extremists are considered a domestic terrorist threat by the United States, where most of these incidents occur. There have also been attacks in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and elsewhere...........
In all of the Christian opposition to abortion, there is a strong element of control, a notion that women don’t merit autonomy and are instead vessels and vehicles for children. They have a duty to be mothers, not the right to be free, independent beings. Apart from the obvious offensiveness of it all, it’s just not biblical. Women are the first to see the resurrected Christ and are not believed by the frightened men who cower in upper rooms and in hiding...........
Quotes source:
https://thewalrus.ca/what-does-the-bibl ... -abortion/

Adapted from The Rebel Christ by Michael Coren, 2021


So is the real religious/political/moral issue about abortion :?: - Or rather is it mainly White 'Christian Identity' politics trying to steal
women's, and by extension, all of our rights :?: Are they using a supposed right to life agenda
but really subverting American Democracy and the Constitution of the United States :?:
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JackDaydream
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Joined: July 25th, 2021, 5:16 pm

Re: What Does the Bible Actually Say about Abortion?

Post by JackDaydream »

UniversalAlien wrote: June 29th, 2022, 5:23 am Because it is such a contentious issue today politically I am putting this in the Politics rather then the religious forum section.

"What Does the Bible Actually Say about Abortion?"

Many conservative Christians use scripture to justify their positions but ignore Jesus’s teachings on humanity and equality
BY MICHAEL COREN
IN 2020, A UNITED METHODIST pastor in Birmingham, Alabama, named Dave Barnhart wrote something on social media, about critics of abortion, that provoked quite a reaction from all sides of the debate.

He said that the “unborn” are a very convenient group to organize around because they don’t make any demands of you and they’re not morally complicated—unlike those in prison, those with addictions, or those trapped in poverty. “You can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power, or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing, or making reparations to anyone. They are, in short, the perfect people to love if you want to claim you love Jesus but actually dislike people who breathe.”
It’s a strong and determined statement. It does seem that those who describe themselves as pro-life are extremely selective in their areas of compassion. That, at least, is true of a great many within the movement. Indeed, by their increasing support for extreme conservative politicians and policies, they’re not merely indifferent to Christian causes but actively hostile toward them. But, first, let’s look at what Jesus and the scriptures actually say about the subject of abortion. You may be surprised.

AS WITH HOMOSEXUALITY and a number of other topics that seem to so energize and enrage conservative Christians, abortion is hardly mentioned in the Bible.

There is ample evidence to show that abortion was practised in the ancient world—in Egypt, for example, as far back as sixteen centuries before the birth of Christ. What we don’t find are many prohibitions against it. Pro-lifers will point to the command of God in Genesis, “Whoever sheds the blood of a human, by a human shall that person’s blood be shed; for in his own image God made humankind.” So, murder is punished by murder. Which is a strict legal code for an ancient people living without police, a sophisticated justice system, or any of the social or prohibitive structures taken for granted in modern times. But this passage is about one adult killing another, and it has nothing at all to do with abortion.
Another oft-used quote, and another that mentions the womb, is in Psalm 139. “For it was you who formed my inward parts; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; that I know very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes beheld my unformed substance. In your book were written all the days that were formed for me, when none of them as yet existed.”

Lyrical and beautiful stuff. But, again, what is being said? This passage is surely about God’s power, but it doesn’t say anything that is at all specific or exclusive to the fetus. The Christian belief is that God knows all, knows us, knows who and what we are. Knows, remember, the woman who is desperate, poor, young, and alone—who can’t afford to have a child, who was raped or abused, who is terrified, who has no health care, who is crying out, after much thought and consideration, to terminate her pregnancy. Knows the goodness and purity in her heart and the harshness of those who condemn. Put simply, the ancient, biblical statement that God is all-powerful has no relevance to the rights of women over their own bodies.
Exodus 21:22 is, however, a part of the Bible that actually does mention the fetus. “When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined what the woman’s husband demands, paying as much as the judges determine. If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”

This is fascinating because it outlines specific punishments for specific crimes. If a woman is hurt in a struggle and then has a miscarriage, the penalty is a fine, a mere financial payment. But, if there is further harm, likely meaning the woman has long-term and serious injuries or even dies, then the culprit could be killed. In other words, the life and well-being of the woman, the mother, is of much greater significance than those of her unborn child.

Reluctant as I am to say it, experience leads me to conclude that the anti-abortion movement certainly doesn’t always indicate a Christ-based love for others. The humiliation and degradation inflicted on women outside of clinics is genuinely shocking. I’ve watched protesters howling at vulnerable women walking into clinics, calling them “murderers” and predicting that “God will not forgive” them. Then there are the people who insist on distributing millions of leaflets showing graphic, bloody pictures of abortions, even putting them through the front doors of private homes where it’s likely that children will see them.

While they claim to be nonviolent, it’s difficult to be convinced. Violence has certainly taken place, and it’s included kidnapping, assault, attempted murder, murder, arson, bombings, and stalking. Anti-abortion extremists are considered a domestic terrorist threat by the United States, where most of these incidents occur. There have also been attacks in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and elsewhere...........
In all of the Christian opposition to abortion, there is a strong element of control, a notion that women don’t merit autonomy and are instead vessels and vehicles for children. They have a duty to be mothers, not the right to be free, independent beings. Apart from the obvious offensiveness of it all, it’s just not biblical. Women are the first to see the resurrected Christ and are not believed by the frightened men who cower in upper rooms and in hiding...........
Quotes source:
https://thewalrus.ca/what-does-the-bibl ... -abortion/

Adapted from The Rebel Christ by Michael Coren, 2021


So is the real religious/political/moral issue about abortion :?: - Or rather is it mainly White 'Christian Identity' politics trying to steal
women's, and by extension, all of our rights :?: Are they using a supposed right to life agenda
but really subverting American Democracy and the Constitution of the United States :?:
Abortion is such an emotive issue. I grew up in a Catholic background, in which it was regarded with horror. Some people went through pregnancies in diff8ult curcuminces and others have chosen abortions, left with so much full. Even if the Bible is a basis for thinking about thie matter it is so complex, especially in medical ethics and the question of at what point does the foetus become conscious .

Unfortunately, the burden often lies with women as they are the ones who become pregnant. The burden of responsibility is with women. It is hard to think about how this must feel for women and the weighing up of what it means to bring another person into the world. Some may see it as the destruction of a life, especially with the tone of those who oppose abortion strongly. It is such a difficult area of medical ethics, and the issues of women's rights in choice and responsibilities, and it may be that it stands out as one of the hardest, grey areas in thinking of a woman and the predicament in which she may be trying to think about bringing another human being into the world.
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UniversalAlien
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Re: What Does the Bible Actually Say about Abortion?

Post by UniversalAlien »

JackDaydreams wrote:
Abortion is such an emotive issue. I grew up in a Catholic background, in which it was regarded with horror. Some people went through pregnancies in diff8ult curcuminces and others have chosen abortions, left with so much full. Even if the Bible is a basis for thinking about thie matter it is so complex, especially in medical ethics and the question of at what point does the foetus become conscious .

Unfortunately, the burden often lies with women as they are the ones who become pregnant. The burden of responsibility is with women. It is hard to think about how this must feel for women and the weighing up of what it means to bring another person into the world. Some may see it as the destruction of a life, especially with the tone of those who oppose abortion strongly. It is such a difficult area of medical ethics, and the issues of women's rights in choice and responsibilities, and it may be that it stands out as one of the hardest, grey areas in thinking of a woman and the predicament in which she may be trying to think about bringing another human being into the world.

"Ruling an egregious allowance of government intrusion into medicine"

JUN 24, 2022
The following statement is attributable to:
Jack Resneck, Jr. M.D.
President, American Medical Association
“The American Medical Association is deeply disturbed by the U.S. Supreme Court’s decision to overturn nearly a half century of precedent protecting patients’ right to critical reproductive health care—representing an egregious allowance of government intrusion into the medical examination room, a direct attack on the practice of medicine and the patient-physician relationship, and a brazen violation of patients’ rights to evidence-based reproductive health services. States that end legal abortion will not end abortion—they will end safe abortion, risking devastating consequences, including patients’ lives.

“Today’s opinion shifting reproductive health decision-making to lawmakers opens a deep political rift between states over access to reproductive health services that places sound medical practice and the health of patients at risk. State restrictions that intrude on the practice of medicine and interfere with the patient-physician relationship leave millions with little or no access to reproductive health services while criminalizing medical care.

“Access to legal reproductive care will be limited to those with the sufficient resources, circumstances, and financial means to do so—exacerbating health inequities by placing the heaviest burden on patients from Black, Latinx, Indigenous, low-income, rural, and other historically disadvantaged communities who already face numerous structural and systemic barriers to accessing health care.

“In alignment with our long-held position that the early termination of a pregnancy is a medical matter between the patient and physician, subject only to the physician’s clinical judgment and the patient’s informed consent, the AMA condemns the high court’s interpretation in this case. We will always have physicians’ backs and defend the practice of medicine, we will fight to protect the patient-physician relationship, and we will oppose any law or regulation that compromises or criminalizes patient access to safe, evidence-based medical care, including abortion. As the health of millions of patients hangs in the balance, this is a fight we will not give up.”


Quote source:
https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/p ... n-medicine



But why listen to doctors, science and the AMA when a group of religious fanatics {my opinion} wants to classify abortion as murder :?:


Where are we :?: Is this 2022 :?: Why do I feel like the Supreme Court is living in the world of 1822 :?:
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JackDaydream
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Re: What Does the Bible Actually Say about Abortion?

Post by JackDaydream »

UniversalAlien wrote: June 29th, 2022, 7:38 pm JackDaydreams wrote:
Abortion is such an emotive issue. I grew up in a Catholic background, in which it was regarded with horror. Some people went through pregnancies in diff8ult curcuminces and others have chosen abortions, left with so much full. Even if the Bible is a basis for thinking about thie matter it is so complex, especially in medical ethics and the question of at what point does the foetus become conscious .

Unfortunately, the burden often lies with women as they are the ones who become pregnant. The burden of responsibility is with women. It is hard to think about how this must feel for women and the weighing up of what it means to bring another person into the world. Some may see it as the destruction of a life, especially with the tone of those who oppose abortion strongly. It is such a difficult area of medical ethics, and the issues of women's rights in choice and responsibilities, and it may be that it stands out as one of the hardest, grey areas in thinking of a woman and the predicament in which she may be trying to think about bringing another human being into the world.

"Ruling an egregious allowance of government intrusion into medicine"

JUN 24, 2022
The following statement is attributable to:
Jack Resneck, Jr. M.D.
President, American Medical Association
“The American Medical Association is deeply disturbed by the U.S. Supreme Court’s decision to overturn nearly a half century of precedent protecting patients’ right to critical reproductive health care—representing an egregious allowance of government intrusion into the medical examination room, a direct attack on the practice of medicine and the patient-physician relationship, and a brazen violation of patients’ rights to evidence-based reproductive health services. States that end legal abortion will not end abortion—they will end safe abortion, risking devastating consequences, including patients’ lives.

“Today’s opinion shifting reproductive health decision-making to lawmakers opens a deep political rift between states over access to reproductive health services that places sound medical practice and the health of patients at risk. State restrictions that intrude on the practice of medicine and interfere with the patient-physician relationship leave millions with little or no access to reproductive health services while criminalizing medical care.

“Access to legal reproductive care will be limited to those with the sufficient resources, circumstances, and financial means to do so—exacerbating health inequities by placing the heaviest burden on patients from Black, Latinx, Indigenous, low-income, rural, and other historically disadvantaged communities who already face numerous structural and systemic barriers to accessing health care.

“In alignment with our long-held position that the early termination of a pregnancy is a medical matter between the patient and physician, subject only to the physician’s clinical judgment and the patient’s informed consent, the AMA condemns the high court’s interpretation in this case. We will always have physicians’ backs and defend the practice of medicine, we will fight to protect the patient-physician relationship, and we will oppose any law or regulation that compromises or criminalizes patient access to safe, evidence-based medical care, including abortion. As the health of millions of patients hangs in the balance, this is a fight we will not give up.”


Quote source:
https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/p ... n-medicine



But why listen to doctors, science and the AMA when a group of religious fanatics {my opinion} wants to classify abortion as murder :?:


Where are we :?: Is this 2022 :?: Why do I feel like the Supreme Court is living in the world of 1822 :?:
One question may be why does it come down to the Bible? I am not meaning to devalue the Judaeo- Christian perspective here, but wondering why does the issue of abortion comes down to authoritative religion in the first place? Is abortion a matter of religion or as a wider aspect of ethics? Is religious authority sought, due to the question of what an unborn child is understood to be?

This is where many struggle because they are uncertain of what the unborn child is, or represents This may be where guilt comes in and women may be in the position of carrying the guilt which arises in the complex dilemmas of making decisions about a potential life The burden may lay upon the women too strongly, for whatever they choose, in allowing a child to be brought into the world or not, in all the complexities and consequences, including human emotions.
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UniversalAlien
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Re: What Does the Bible Actually Say about Abortion?

Post by UniversalAlien »

JackDaydream wrote: June 29th, 2022, 8:00 pm One question may be why does it come down to the Bible? I am not meaning to devalue the Judaeo- Christian perspective here, but wondering why does the issue of abortion comes down to authoritative religion in the first place? Is abortion a matter of religion or as a wider aspect of ethics? Is religious authority sought, due to the question of what an unborn child is understood to be?

This is where many struggle because they are uncertain of what the unborn child is, or represents This may be where guilt comes in and women may be in the position of carrying the guilt which arises in the complex dilemmas of making decisions about a potential life The burden may lay upon the women too strongly, for whatever they choose, in allowing a child to be brought into the world or not, in all the complexities and consequences, including human emotions.
One question may be why does it come down to the Bible?
Good question - Isn't our government supposed to have a separation of church and state :?:

Of course we know it is mainly the religious 'Christian Right' that has been pushing the anti abortion agenda
- Most other people and groups would not concern themselves with the unborn, unborn fetuses which are none of their business except
they decided to make it their business - Your wife, girl friend, daughter has become the business of people who have decided that some
type of religious or moral code keeps them up at night - Any abortion, not only in the US, but anywhere in the World bothers
these people - they claim an obligation to unborn fetuses that they have no relationship with whatsoever :!:
In my opinion that is crazy - a form of insanity.

But just for the sake of argument let's consider the moral/ethical issue.
How can any sane and reasonable person claim the right to force a woman to bring an unwanted baby into the World :?:

I'm not particularly religious, but if I was I would definitely see forcing unwanted life to be born to be a sin :idea:
- It is the reverse, and just as bad, an ideology as the Chinese a few years back forcing women to have abortions
because the population was getting out of control - At least they had a logical reason, the right to life gang does not :!:
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Astro Cat
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Re: What Does the Bible Actually Say about Abortion?

Post by Astro Cat »

While this deviates from the original premise about what the Bible says, some of the conversation has turned towards the moral/ethical issue.

One of the biggest things I like to remind people about all of this is that most rapes go unreported, aren't believed when reported, or women face heavy negative consequences for reporting. It's also the case that many rapes aren't considered rapes by those involved or by some state laws:

--When consent is withdrawn (for whatever reason) and the man continues
--When the man "stealths" (pretends to put on a condom, or inconspicuously removes it)
--When an enthusiastic "yes" isn't given (a lot of people, especially young women, freeze up and don't know how to respond to the advance, or they're afraid to say no, and it becomes easier/safer to acquiesce than to firmly say no or put up a fight)
--Marital rape, when someone demands sex because it's "owed." This is especially so in abusive relationships when women are often coerced into being totally financially dependent, often having support networks controlled, etc.

It's very likely everybody reading this knows someone that hasn't had fully consensual and enthusiastic sex. That's still rape.

Part of the notion of the right to privacy to make private medical decisions is because the reasons for an abortion are more complex than "oh oops, LOL, I had sex so that's my bad!"
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool."
--Richard Feynman
Tegularius
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Re: What Does the Bible Actually Say about Abortion?

Post by Tegularius »

More than a little ironic that the institutionalized religions - Christianity foremost in this instance - who are so morally against abortion are also among the main perpetrators of child abuse. Based on how much is reported now, it's easy to see how much more took place in past centuries when such reports were considered blasphemy against the clergy and therefore against the church itself.

The human race has shown itself least human in its theistic contrivances and subterfuges. If not first in all its ugliness, it remains second to none.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
EricPH
Posts: 449
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Re: What Does the Bible Actually Say about Abortion?

Post by EricPH »

UniversalAlien wrote: June 29th, 2022, 5:23 am Many conservative Christians use scripture to justify their positions but ignore Jesus’s teachings on humanity and equality
BY MICHAEL COREN
Sadly, I agree with this.

I think we should promote what we agree with, rather than what we are against. I believe we should encourage the Bible's message about a loving marriage until death do us part. Marriage should be about loving families where children can grow up amongst parents, grandparents uncles, aunts, brothers and sisters. Loving and stable families are good for communities, people support and help each other more through their connections with each other. If you plan for children in a loving relationship, there should be less need for abortions.

Sex almost seems more for recreational enjoyment and a commodity, if you don't like someone, you move onto another partner. This maybe fine for the partner who moves on, but not so good for those left behind. In the UK, by the time a child reaches 15, about half of them are not living with both their biological parents.
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