Are there leftist libertarians ?

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InfinityMuse
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Re: Are there leftist libertarians ?

Post by InfinityMuse »

heracleitos wrote: October 28th, 2022, 8:09 pm
InfinityMuse wrote: October 28th, 2022, 8:01 pm ARE THERE LEFTIST LIBERTARIANS?
No, because leftists are Statists while libertarians are anti-Statist. Hence, the notion of leftist libertarian is an oxymoron.
Statists are liberals
Libertarian is man kind
Leftists are extremists and terrorists.
heracleitos
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Re: Are there leftist libertarians ?

Post by heracleitos »

InfinityMuse wrote: October 28th, 2022, 8:19 pm Statists are liberals
Some are.

Others are rather conservative.

They merely differ on what to spend the money on, confiscated from the population.

Leftists want to spend it on freebies that make their constituency more dependent on handouts. Conservatives want to spend it on army, police, and crony capitalism.

The problem of Statists is that they always end up running out of other people's money.

To the extent that (runaway) Statism always ends up turning on the Statists themselves, I have no problem with it. From SE Asia, my advice is: Let it all go up in smoke!
GE Morton
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Re: Are there leftist libertarians ?

Post by GE Morton »

InfinityMuse wrote: October 28th, 2022, 8:01 pm
The debate is not about morality. The question stands.

ARE THERE LEFTIST LIBERTARIANS?
That question was answered early on in the thread:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism
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InfinityMuse
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Re: Are there leftist libertarians ?

Post by InfinityMuse »

GE Morton wrote: October 28th, 2022, 8:54 pm
InfinityMuse wrote: October 28th, 2022, 8:01 pm
The debate is not about morality. The question stands.

ARE THERE LEFTIST LIBERTARIANS?
That question was answered early on in the thread:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism
Essentially, if a libertarian were a republican. I would agree with socialist being leftist libertarian. The political compass is not just solely centered on one critical left. There are many lefts and many rights.

In witch political compass is a socialist a left libertarian.
There is not much sound moral structure to Wikipedia. I would suggest a virtue of liberty is socialism. I think green is more left of center of libertarian and right of partisan row.

This GOP response suggests that democrats on the left are fascist a left of partisan row.
heracleitos
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Re: Are there leftist libertarians ?

Post by heracleitos »

GE Morton wrote: October 28th, 2022, 8:54 pm
InfinityMuse wrote: October 28th, 2022, 8:01 pm
The debate is not about morality. The question stands.

ARE THERE LEFTIST LIBERTARIANS?
That question was answered early on in the thread:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism
The libertarians will generally always lose from the Statists, because the use of force always trumps free trade. Bitcoin is, however, the one notable exception to this general rule. Bitcoin is the only practical libertarian success in existence.
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InfinityMuse
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Re: Are there leftist libertarians ?

Post by InfinityMuse »

heracleitos wrote: October 28th, 2022, 9:11 pm
GE Morton wrote: October 28th, 2022, 8:54 pm
InfinityMuse wrote: October 28th, 2022, 8:01 pm
The debate is not about morality. The question stands.

ARE THERE LEFTIST LIBERTARIANS?
That question was answered early on in the thread:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism
The libertarians will generally always lose from the Statists, because the use of force always trumps free trade. Bitcoin is, however, the one notable exception to this general rule. Bitcoin is the only practical libertarian success in existence.
I agree. Bitcoin didn't arrive with out corruption. The silk road website, military -rep- industrial complex, and child trafficking stand vulgar and disproportionate to the rule of law for Bitcoin. It is a bullish market. It is a bullish market for Japan.

Decentralization is the biggest neo-libertarian challenge for regulators. How will centralization occur? How will implementation affect global relations?

Migration is the other (UN) successful libertarian practice.
heracleitos
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Re: Are there leftist libertarians ?

Post by heracleitos »

InfinityMuse wrote: October 28th, 2022, 9:35 pm Migration is the other (UN) successful libertarian practice.
The general practice is not just migration but "jurisdiction shopping". You don't need to physically move to avoid most laws. It is only the laws that infringe on your personal relations (with wives and children) that require migration.

But then again, in order to avoid Statist attacks on family relations, it may not be enough to merely migrate.

In terms of long-term prospects, here is also a need for encouraging the military adversaries of the West to stop dragging their feet and to strike more vividly and more decisively. For example, when is the Chinese Navy finally going to annihilate and eradicate the US Pacific fleet? That should have been done a long time ago. Their military planners go a lot slower than I would. Another example of sluggishness, is the fact that the Russian Federation still has not attacked and destroyed existing NATO army bases in Europe. They will have to do that anyway. So they could as well do it now already. I really do not see what they are waiting for.

It is indeed patently clear to me that a more general solution to the problem will be of a military nature and that it will require an inordinate amount of dead bodies. It may ultimately even require a nuclear strike first.
Good_Egg
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Re: Are there leftist libertarians ?

Post by Good_Egg »

GE Morton wrote: October 28th, 2022, 8:54 pm
InfinityMuse wrote: October 28th, 2022, 8:01 pm
The debate is not about morality. The question stands.

ARE THERE LEFTIST LIBERTARIANS?
That question was answered early on in the thread:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism
If we accept that anarchism (advocating no State at all) is one end of the libertarian-authoritarian axis, then the question maybe becomes whether there are left-anarchists and right-anarchists.

Wikipedia certainly thinks there are. I'm not 100% convinced.

If
right-anarchists believe in a moral right to private property, but that there should be no State-like body to enforce that claim,
And
left-anarchists believe that natural resources morally belong to everyone, but that there should be mo State-like body to enforce that claim
Then
Is there not an argument the two hold the same political position, but different private moral convictions ?
"Opinions are fiercest.. ..when the evidence to support or refute them is weakest" - Druin Burch
heracleitos
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Re: Are there leftist libertarians ?

Post by heracleitos »

Good_Egg wrote: October 29th, 2022, 3:31 am If we accept that anarchism (advocating no State at all) is one end of the libertarian-authoritarian axis
Only Bitcoin has ever achieved that goal. That is the incredible genius of Bitcoin. Everything else in libertarianism, so-called left or right, has never worked in practice. In whatever else they do, the libertarians just keep getting smashed to smithereens by the Statists. I will never side with the losers because there is no point in doing that. The libertarians should first go back to the drawing board and design another kind of Bitcoin for another type of problem.
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InfinityMuse
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Re: Are there leftist libertarians ?

Post by InfinityMuse »

heracleitos wrote: October 29th, 2022, 5:30 am
Good_Egg wrote: October 29th, 2022, 3:31 am If we accept that anarchism (advocating no State at all) is one end of the libertarian-authoritarian axis

I disagree, anarchism is a libertarian-authoritarian axis regulated by the state. There fore the state has accepted anarchism for everybody. I can argue hearsey is the risk of your argument.
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InfinityMuse
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Re: Are there leftist libertarians ?

Post by InfinityMuse »

heracleitos wrote: October 28th, 2022, 11:07 pm
InfinityMuse wrote: October 28th, 2022, 9:35 pm Migration is the other (UN) successful libertarian practice.
The general practice is not just migration but "jurisdiction shopping". You don't need to physically move to avoid most laws. It is only the laws that infringe on your personal relations (with wives and children) that require migration.

But then again, in order to avoid Statist attacks on family relations, it may not be enough to merely migrate.

In terms of long-term prospects, here is also a need for encouraging the military adversaries of the West to stop dragging their feet and to strike more vividly and more decisively. For example, when is the Chinese Navy finally going to annihilate and eradicate the US Pacific fleet? That should have been done a long time ago. Their military planners go a lot slower than I would. Another example of sluggishness, is the fact that the Russian Federation still has not attacked and destroyed existing NATO army bases in Europe. They will have to do that anyway. So they could as well do it now already. I really do not see what they are waiting for.

It is indeed patently clear to me that a more general solution to the problem will be of a military nature and that it will require an inordinate amount of dead bodies. It may ultimately even require a nuclear strike first.
Thanks for responding. Your argument is a blast from the passed.its so good it like living in a microwave and commanding millimeter counter spy-counter spy operations ( oh, yes I said counter spy twice) the federation is the NATO bases that Russia has not destroyed. American bases all over the place is a political trap for bombing with nukes btw. They will stand there untill I or somebody in the American military decides to blow them up with nukes. This is the general complex. Who cares who is on a base or why the base is there and why the us pacific fleet also looks like the Chinese navy. What maters most, is reverting sweet bowls on a skateboard in the army and the navy at special operations, south.
heracleitos
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Re: Are there leftist libertarians ?

Post by heracleitos »

InfinityMuse wrote: October 29th, 2022, 7:48 pm Thanks for responding. Your argument is a blast from the passed.its so good it like living in a microwave and commanding millimeter counter spy-counter spy operations ( oh, yes I said counter spy twice) the federation is the NATO bases that Russia has not destroyed. American bases all over the place is a political trap for bombing with nukes btw. They will stand there untill I or somebody in the American military decides to blow them up with nukes. This is the general complex. Who cares who is on a base or why the base is there and why the us pacific fleet also looks like the Chinese navy. What maters most, is reverting sweet bowls on a skateboard in the army and the navy at special operations, south.
When a government, i.e. a ruling mafia, gets it in their heads that there should be no limit to the amount of bullying that they can unleash, at that point, it is not my job as an individual to do something about it.

However, something needs to be done about it.
So, someone needs to do something about it.

The perfect tool to rein in a mafia, is ... another mafia.

I think everybody has understood by now that it is time for the US official mafia to be made to lick their wounds. That is why it is necessary to completely destroy their armed forces. Again, I do not care as to whom exactly does it, as long as someone does it.

This is one of those problems that can only be solved by producing an exorbitant number of dead bodies. That is a heavy price to exact from the situation but I also sure that it is necessary, and that it will be worth it.
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InfinityMuse
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Re: Are there leftist libertarians ?

Post by InfinityMuse »

heracleitos wrote: October 29th, 2022, 11:01 pm
InfinityMuse wrote: October 29th, 2022, 7:48 pm Thanks for responding. Your argument is a blast from the passed.its so good it like living in a microwave and commanding millimeter counter spy-counter spy operations ( oh, yes I said counter spy twice) the federation is the NATO bases that Russia has not destroyed. American bases all over the place is a political trap for bombing with nukes btw. They will stand there untill I or somebody in the American military decides to blow them up with nukes. This is the general complex. Who cares who is on a base or why the base is there and why the us pacific fleet also looks like the Chinese navy. What maters most, is reverting sweet bowls on a skateboard in the army and the navy at special operations, south.
When a government, i.e. a ruling mafia, gets it in their heads that there should be no limit to the amount of bullying that they can unleash, at that point, it is not my job as an individual to do something about it.

However, something needs to be done about it.
So, someone needs to do something about it.

The perfect tool to rein in a mafia, is ... another mafia.

I think everybody has understood by now that it is time for the US official mafia to be made to lick their wounds. That is why it is necessary to completely destroy their armed forces. Again, I do not care as to whom exactly does it, as long as someone does it.

This is one of those problems that can only be solved by producing an exorbitant number of dead bodies. That is a heavy price to exact from the situation but I also sure that it is necessary, and that it will be worth it.
The same scripted statement. I done talking to you here. I can't water untill I have give wheat germ to a senator again.
heracleitos
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Re: Are there leftist libertarians ?

Post by heracleitos »

InfinityMuse wrote: October 29th, 2022, 11:29 pm The same scripted statement. I done talking to you here. I can't water untill I have give wheat germ to a senator again.
You sound a bit like those Ukranians who are "done talking to Vladimir Putin".
They may indeed be "done talking" but they are certainly not yet done freezing to death this winter!

What is the temperature in Kiev tonight?
Without electricity, gas, or other means of heating?

And with winter coming, it is not going to get any better over the next few months over there ...

I am not going to suggest that they should talk to Putin, because they have already said that they won't do it.

So, let them not do it!

Maybe someday they will "be done" not doing it? Who knows?

As an individual, I can only say: Good luck!
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Sculptor1
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Re: Are there leftist libertarians ?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Libertarianism is wholly parasitic on a well ordered society.

As soon as that society breaks down libertarianism turns to chaos and people band together to recreate a coherent world safe from libertarians.
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