To What Extent Is Humanity on the Verge of Totalitarianism?
- JackDaydream
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To What Extent Is Humanity on the Verge of Totalitarianism?
I don't mean to be completely negative because in many ways human beings have so much freedom but I am considering whether this is shifting dramatically, with 'cancel culture', reliance on machines and machines replacing human beings. Also, the cultural climate is changing with the transbacklash and there seems to be so many potential freedoms taking place.
For example, I only discovered in the UK that there is a newly introduced rule that in order to vote one has to show photo ID. I read that in a recent election one person was turned away because the only photo ID he had was his work ID. This was not considered acceptable like a passport or driving licence. But not everyone has a passport or drives. To have a passport a person has to be able to pay for it. Also, for people on benefits there are specific rules against travelling outside of the country, so applying for a passport is not necessarily being encouraged. So, in the past when the right to vote was fought for it is being removed through backdoor policies.
I am left wondering to what extent is totalitarianism coming and is it the kind of way expected? Is 'cancel culture' a form of thought police. Also, what benefits and disadvantages are likely to arise. This may even involve global relationships, including the UN and the idea of a one-world government. What is coming, for better or worse?
- Pattern-chaser
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Re: To What Extent Is Humanity on the Verge of Totalitarianism?
Currently, times are hard for many, and they may get harder as eco-collapse becomes more obvious. So a drift toward totalitarianism will surely happen, or has already happened? It will be profoundly counter-productive, as it always has been, but it will emerge nonetheless. Thatcher and Reagan may have been the first buds of intolerance, but this flower is now in full bloom, and everything you describe will probably come to pass.
What is coming? I don't know, but I am a bit scared to even imagine... 🫣
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- JackDaydream
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Re: To What Extent Is Humanity on the Verge of Totalitarianism?
Yes, I do wonder about the connection between hard times, the eco-collapse and emergence of totalitarianism. The power imbalances may come into play in the fight over resources, especially as oil is running out. There is the potential for the elite, such as those who own the media to control as an 'invisible hand' of economics.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2023, 9:48 am When times are hard, people become dissatisfied, and tyrants emerge to capitalise on this mood of frightened violence. The example that springs most easily to mind is 1930s Germany, but there have been many more, before and since.
Currently, times are hard for many, and they may get harder as eco-collapse becomes more obvious. So a drift toward totalitarianism will surely happen, or has already happened? It will be profoundly counter-productive, as it always has been, but it will emerge nonetheless. Thatcher and Reagan may have been the first buds of intolerance, but this flower is now in full bloom, and everything you describe will probably come to pass.
What is coming? I don't know, but I am a bit scared to even imagine... 🫣
However, I am not sure if there is any plan as such or a loss of plot. There are so many inconsistencies in so many ways. At times, I feel that there are a lot of people who think positively and wish to make changes for themselves and others. However, there is so much going in the opposite direction, especially in the situation of mass population, with a sense of there being a need to control and organise the masses.
Also, many people feel so let down by the politicians and it is hard to know whether totalitarianism or anarchy will prevail, or a complex mixture as well as many different viewpoints competing together for attention.
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Re: To What Extent Is Humanity on the Verge of Totalitarianism?
Your association of totalitarianism with the 1980s swing to the right is just lazy kneejerk thinking. Thatcher's vision was the opposite of totalitarianism - she was into free markets and small business and "rolling back the frontiers of the state".Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2023, 9:48 am ... a drift toward totalitarianism will surely happen, or has already happened? It will be profoundly counter-productive, as it always has been, but it will emerge nonetheless. Thatcher and Reagan may have been the first buds of intolerance, but this flower is now in full bloom...
Totalitarianism is traditionally seen as the intrusion of the state into all aspects of private life, Leading to the loss of core freedoms - freedom of speech, of travel, of worship, of association. This can come from the populist right, or the ideological left, or indeed the managerialist centre.
There are several sources from which a new totalitarianism may emerge.
1) we've seen the over-reaction to Covid - the police roadblocks preventing travel, the emergency laws prohibiting gatherings of people, the forced closure of churches by atheist governments who deem religious practice as nonessential. Having seen people swallow it the first time, governments will be tempted to do the same again, all in the interests of "public safety".
2) we've seen the first stirrings of environmental totalitarianism - government restrictions on travel, because of the "climate emergency"
3) we've seen "misinformation" increasingly used as an excuse to shut down free speech on the internet
4) we've seen loss of privacy - with more interactions moving online and the technical capability of monitoring. So far it seems mainly to have been used by corporations for advertising, but who knows how much the government knows about you ? What are the chances of Chinese-style "social credit" systems taking hold here ?
You're right that it's happening, but you're looking in the wrong place...
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Re: To What Extent Is Humanity on the Verge of Totalitarianism?
It depends on your perspective. Thatcher and Reagan, both conservative leaders, introduced policies that marked a significant departure from the prevailing political and economic consensus of their time. Thatcher pursued a program of economic liberalization, privatization, and deregulation in the United Kingdom, while Reagan implemented similar policies in the United States, commonly referred to as Reaganomics. These reforms aimed to reduce the role of the state in the economy, promote free markets, and curb the power of labour unions. Such radical changes inevitably led to clashes with those who opposed or were adversely affected by these policies.Good_Egg wrote: ↑June 6th, 2023, 8:55 amYour association of totalitarianism with the 1980s swing to the right is just lazy kneejerk thinking. Thatcher's vision was the opposite of totalitarianism - she was into free markets and small business and "rolling back the frontiers of the state".Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2023, 9:48 am ... a drift toward totalitarianism will surely happen, or has already happened? It will be profoundly counter-productive, as it always has been, but it will emerge nonetheless. Thatcher and Reagan may have been the first buds of intolerance, but this flower is now in full bloom...
The Thatcher and Reagan years witnessed considerable social and economic transformations. While their policies were credited with fostering economic growth and curbing inflation, they also led to increased income inequality and job losses in certain sectors. Industries such as mining and manufacturing, for example, faced significant challenges and experienced widespread closures, leading to protests, strikes, and social unrest. The effects of these policies were particularly felt in regions heavily dependent on traditional industries, such as coal mining communities in the UK and the Rust Belt in the US.
Thatcher and Reagan were known for their divisive rhetoric and uncompromising leadership styles. They advocated for individualism, free markets, and limited government intervention, often at the expense of social welfare programs and public services. This approach created a perception that they were unsympathetic to the needs of the most vulnerable members of society, leading to heightened social divisions and criticism of their policies.
Thatcher and Reagan faced strong opposition from various groups and political opponents who disagreed with their policies and governance style. In the UK, Thatcher's confrontations with trade unions and her handling of the Falklands War generated significant controversy. Similarly, Reagan encountered opposition from progressives, anti-war activists, and civil rights advocates who criticized his approach to domestic and foreign policy issues, including his response to the AIDS epidemic and the Iran-Contra scandal.
It was the start of policies that disregarded the social restrictions of lower-class citizens, created a highly competitive environment, bringing in managers to replace farmers for example, whose only concern was to produce perpetual growth and rake in the money. The fact that there was no readiness to incorporate the people who were not able to compete in this technocratic society, has produced a renewal of class differences, despite the brief expansion of a middle class, which has been shrinking again under those who claim to be following her example. It is too easy to claim that people are lazy, just because you can't understand their perspective.
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Re: To What Extent Is Humanity on the Verge of Totalitarianism?
It is more meaningful to ask: Is the trend inching towards more authoritarianism.
- JackDaydream
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Re: To What Extent Is Humanity on the Verge of Totalitarianism?
If I'd hard to know the full impact of totalitarianism, its impact and sensationalism The ideas of Orwell may have suggested it as the worst possibility. Having read thinking in that direction, I am wary of that direction thinking. Thd issues of authoritaritarianism and sensationalism are ongoing issues in the understanding of liberty, in both politics and ethics.
The relationship between politics and ethics may be crucial here, because it is about the emphasis on the rights and needs of the individual. In mord authoritarian perspectives the emphasis is moe lupon the collective needs. This is open to question and there is the issue as to whether hierarchies of power come into play and how these impact on the ethical, political aspects practical aspects of life..
- JackDaydream
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Re: To What Extent Is Humanity on the Verge of Totalitarianism?
Your understanding of the restrictions of liberty inherent in an ideology of totalitarianism is crucial, especially the the restrictions imposed upon people. So much may be seen in tha guise of the greater needs of the 'good', but it may be tinged with political and moral agendas.Good_Egg wrote: ↑June 6th, 2023, 8:55 amYour association of totalitarianism with the 1980s swing to the right is just lazy kneejerk thinking. Thatcher's vision was the opposite of totalitarianism - she was into free markets and small business and "rolling back the frontiers of the state".Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2023, 9:48 am ... a drift toward totalitarianism will surely happen, or has already happened? It will be profoundly counter-productive, as it always has been, but it mkwill emerge nonetheless. Thatcher and Reagan may have been the first buds of intolerance, but this flower is now in full bloom...
Totalitarianism is traditionally seen as the intrusion of the state into all aspects of private life, Leading to the loss of core freedoms - freedom of speech, of travel, of worship, of association. This can come from the populist right, or the ideological left, or indeed the managerialist centre.
There are several sources from which a new totalitarianism may emerge.
1) we've seen the over-reaction to Covid - the police roadblocks preventing travel, the emergency laws prohibiting gatherings of people, the forced closure of churches by atheist governments who deem religious practice as nonessential. Having seen people swallow it the first time, governments will be tempted to do the same again, all in the interests of "public safety".
2) we've seen the first stirrings of environmental totalitarianism - government restrictions on travel, because of the "climate emergency"
3) we've seen "misinformation" increasingly usead in d as an excuse to shut down free speech on the internet
4) we've seen loss of privacy - with more interactions moving online and the technical capability of monitoring. So far it seems ows about you ? What are the chances of Chinese-style "social credit" systems taking hold here ?
You're right that it's happening, but you're looking in the wrong place...
The problem with seeing totalitarian ideas and agendas may be the way in which they are seen as being part of the social 'good'. However, so much of philosophy and politics has come into the spotlight of questioning. To what extent will this pose a challenge to assumptions of the social order and the dynamics of power and politics? What is the role of ideologies in the discourse of politics and in questioning of underlying ideas, especially in connection with the rhetorical aspects of politics?
- JackDaydream
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Re: To What Extent Is Humanity on the Verge of Totalitarianism?
JackDaydream wrote: ↑June 6th, 2023, 8:48 pmYour understanding of the restrictions of liberty inherent in an ideology of totalitarianism is crucial, especially the the restrictions imposed upon people. So much may be seen in tha guise of the greater needs of the 'good', but it may be tinged with political and moral agendas.Good_Egg wrote: ↑June 6th, 2023, 8:55 amYour association of totalitarianism with the 1980s swing to the right is just lazy kneejerk thinking. Thatcher's vision was the opposite of totalitarianism - she was into free markets and small business and "rolling back the frontiers of the state".Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2023, 9:48 am ... a drift toward totalitarianism will surely happen, or has already happened? It will be profoundly counter-productive, as it always has been, but it mkwill emerge nonetheless. Thatcher and Reagan may have been the first buds of intolerance, but this flower is now in full bloom...
Totalitarianism is traditionally seen as the intrusion of the state into all aspects of private life, Leading to the loss of core freedoms - freedom of speech, of travel, of worship, of association. This can come from the populist right, or the ideological left, or indeed the managerialist centre.
There are several sources from which a new totalitarianism may emerge.
1) we've seen the over-reaction to Covid - the police roadblocks preventing travel, the emergency laws prohibiting gatherings of people, the forced closure of churches by atheist governments who deem religious practice as nonessential. Having seen people swallow it the first time, governments will be tempted to do the same again, all in the interests of "public safety".
2) we've seen the first stirrings of environmental totalitarianism - government restrictions on travel, because of the "climate emergency"
3) we've seen "misinformation" increasingly usead in d as an excuse to shut down free speech on the internet
4) we've seen loss of privacy - with more interactions moving online and the technical capability of monitoring. So far it seems ows about you ? What are the chances of Chinese-style "social credit" systems taking hold here ?
You're right that it's happening, but you're looking in the wrong place...
The problem with thinking about totalitarian ideas and agendas may be the way in which they are seen as being part of the social 'good'. However, so much of philosophy and politics has come into the spotlight of questioning. To what extent will this pose a challenge to assumptions of the social order and the dynamics of power and politics? What is the role of ideologies in the discourse of politics and in questioning of underlying ideas, especially in connection with the rhetorical aspects of politics?
- JackDaydream
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Re: To What Extent Is Humanity on the Verge of Totalitarianism?
The issues of surveillance may be in the form of protection through social control. This may be a 'soft totalitarianism. Ideas of protection may come into it, in opposition to that of liberty. It may be here that it becomes tricky, ethically and politically.JackDaydream wrote: ↑June 6th, 2023, 8:56 pmJackDaydream wrote: ↑June 6th, 2023, 8:48 pmYour understanding of the restrictions of liberty inherent in an ideology of totalitarianism is crucial, especially the the restrictions imposed upon people. So much may be seen in tha guise of the greater needs of the 'good', but it may be tinged with political and moral agendas.Good_Egg wrote: ↑June 6th, 2023, 8:55 amYour association of totalitarianism with the 1980s swing to the right is just lazy kneejerk thinking. Thatcher's vision was the opposite of totalitarianism - she was into free markets and small business and "rolling back the frontiers of the state".Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2023, 9:48 am ... a drift toward totalitarianism will surely happen, or has already happened? It will be profoundly counter-productive, as it always has been, but it mkwill emerge nonetheless. Thatcher and Reagan may have been the first buds of intolerance, but this flower is now in full bloom...
Totalitarianism is traditionally seen as the intrusion of the state into all aspects of private life, Leading to the loss of core freedoms - freedom of speech, of travel, of worship, of association. This can come from the populist right, or the ideological left, or indeed the managerialist centre.
There are several sources from which a new totalitarianism may emerge.
1) we've seen the over-reaction to Covid - the police roadblocks preventing travel, the emergency laws prohibiting gatherings of people, the forced closure of churches by atheist governments who deem religious practice as nonessential. Having seen people swallow it the first time, governments will be tempted to do the same again, all in the interests of "public safety".
2) we've seen the first stirrings of environmental totalitarianism - government restrictions on travel, because of the "climate emergency"
3) we've seen "misinformation" increasingly usead in d as an excuse to shut down free speech on the internet
4) we've seen loss of privacy - with more interactions moving online and the technical capability of monitoring. So far it seems ows about you ? What are the chances of Chinese-style "social credit" systems taking hold here ?
You're right that it's happening, but you're looking in the wrong place...
The problem with thinking about totalitarian ideas and agendas may be the way in which they are seen as being part of the social 'good'. However, so much of philosophy and politics has come into the spotlight of questioning. To what extent will this pose a challenge to assumptions of the social order and the dynamics of power and politics? What is the role of ideologies in the discourse of politics and in questioning of underlying ideas, especially in connection with the rhetorical aspects of politics?
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Re: To What Extent Is Humanity on the Verge of Totalitarianism?
"Protection through social control" sounds like a workable definition of totalitarianism. Maybe to capture the full meaning you'd have to say "total protection through total social control" ?JackDaydream wrote: ↑June 6th, 2023, 9:05 pm The issues of surveillance may be in the form of protection through social control. This may be a 'soft totalitarianism. Ideas of protection may come into it, in opposition to that of liberty. It may be here that it becomes tricky, ethically and politically.
Rather than galloping towards, you mean ?
Would you settle for a fast trot ?
Can we grow to love Big Brother ? No - the opposite.JackDaydream wrote: ↑June 6th, 2023, 8:01 pm The ideas of Orwell may have suggested it as the worst possibility. Having read thinking in that direction, I am wary of that direction thinking.
We flirt with Big Brother, imagining that what he'll impose on our neighbour is conformity with the ideas that we believe in, and that sounds good.
But once the infrastructure, the mechanisms the cultural acceptance of social control are in place, they will be used against us. When you have a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. We grow to hate Big Brother, because he doesn't know when to stop.
It's not theory- it's there in the experience of Eastern Europe in the twentieth century.
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Re: To What Extent Is Humanity on the Verge of Totalitarianism?
As far as flirting and loving Big Brother, my worry is that people are beginning to do so. The idea of totalitarianism doesn't seem to horrify many people like it used to. It is as if it has edged it's way in an insidious way, with the rules and fabric of the digital age. Although lockdown was for the scenario of Covid_19, people have become more accustomed to rules and restrictions being introduced, including the step towards a cashless society.Good_Egg wrote: ↑June 7th, 2023, 3:49 am"Protection through social control" sounds like a workable definition of totalitarianism. Maybe to capture the full meaning you'd have to say "total protection through total social control" ?JackDaydream wrote: ↑June 6th, 2023, 9:05 pm The issues of surveillance may be in the form of protection through social control. This may be a 'soft totalitarianism. Ideas of protection may come into it, in opposition to that of liberty. It may be here that it becomes tricky, ethically and politically.
Rather than galloping towards, you mean ?
Would you settle for a fast trot ?
Can we grow to love Big Brother ? No - the opposite.JackDaydream wrote: ↑June 6th, 2023, 8:01 pm The ideas of Orwell may have suggested it as the worst possibility. Having read thinking in that direction, I am wary of that direction thinking.
We flirt with Big Brother, imagining that what he'll impose on our neighbour is conformity with the ideas that we believe in, and that sounds good.
But once the infrastructure, the mechanisms the cultural acceptance of social control are in place, they will be used against us. When you have a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. We grow to hate Big Brother, because he doesn't know when to stop.
It's not theory- it's there in the experience of Eastern Europe in the twentieth century.
Some may not see any connection with the move towards cashless society as being connected at all, but it does mean that people's identity can be traced everywhere. Even on the website, identity can be traced. Of course, some of it is done by bots rather than human beings.
- Pattern-chaser
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Re: To What Extent Is Humanity on the Verge of Totalitarianism?
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2023, 9:48 am ... a drift toward totalitarianism will surely happen, or has already happened? It will be profoundly counter-productive, as it always has been, but it will emerge nonetheless. Thatcher and Reagan may have been the first buds of intolerance, but this flower is now in full bloom...
Warlord Thatcher removed state regulation — the regulation that protected individual citizens and their rights. Brexit, some years later, did much the same with EU protections. Over time, this lead to the UK Public Order Act 2023, which prevents individuals from speaking or acting — even peacefully — if the government doesn't like what they're saying. Criminalising — and thereby suppressing — the peasants is an essential step on the road to totalitarianism, I think?
"Who cares, wins"
- Pattern-chaser
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Re: To What Extent Is Humanity on the Verge of Totalitarianism?
Yes, this is the sentiment that many of us find the most worrying. The rise of 'alt-truth' — lies!!! — and our present-day contempt for experts, would (could) not have happened 50 years ago. But, as you say, it "doesn't seem to horrify many people like it used to." And I find that very worrying indeed.JackDaydream wrote: ↑June 7th, 2023, 5:10 am As far as flirting and loving Big Brother, my worry is that people are beginning to do so. The idea of totalitarianism doesn't seem to horrify many people like it used to.
"Who cares, wins"
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Re: To What Extent Is Humanity on the Verge of Totalitarianism?
Until yesterday you were the only person who had replied to the thread. I wonder to what extent that would have happened 10 years ago because I think that many people are not bothered much by the idea of totalitarianism. I have come across people who even see totalitarianism as a positive, as if someone needs to be in charge. Also, even in health care I found in the years leading up to the pandemic everything was becoming more governed, with such an emphasis on following policies and a tick box culture.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 7th, 2023, 9:18 amYes, this is the sentiment that many of us find the most worrying. The rise of 'alt-truth' — lies!!! — and our present-day contempt for experts, would (could) not have happened 50 years ago. But, as you say, it "doesn't seem to horrify many people like it used to." And I find that very worrying indeed.JackDaydream wrote: ↑June 7th, 2023, 5:10 am As far as flirting and loving Big Brother, my worry is that people are beginning to do so. The idea of totalitarianism doesn't seem to horrify many people like it used to.
Funnily enough, in the last post I was writing on this thread I finished it quickly because there was a knock on the door and it was the police. It seemed they were looking for my next door neighbour. However, they were asking a lot of questions about the people living there and looking around.. After they left someone remarked that he had opened the door for them, but they did not have a warrant to inspect the building. It does seem that police and other officials seem to be expecting more and more compliance.
Of course, I don't want to take a paranoid angle and go down the route of conspiracy theory. It just seems that people are becoming more unquestioning increasingly. It leads me to think of Stanley Milgram's study of obedience, with people following orders to give electric shocks under the power of authority. I wonder to what extent that could happen in real life.
2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month
Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023
Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023