Robert66 wrote: ↑June 17th, 2022, 5:58 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: ↑June 17th, 2022, 5:41 pm
Robert66 wrote: ↑June 17th, 2022, 5:25 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: ↑June 16th, 2022, 4:28 pm
Where justice systems exist, the natural and sensible default position is to consider them as untrustworthy.
And anyone who has had the misfortune to have direct contact even with the world's most "trusted" systems will know that the only way to get on with them is to treat them with utter caution.
"Never say anything to the police".
The police are not there to deliver justice, but to get a collar. It does not matter your guilt or innocence. You will find yourself in the dock for one reason only; if they think they can convict.
If you are poor, you will have to struggle with defence, and have a very small chance to keep your liberty.
If you are rich then you have a good chance to get off even if guilty.
Some will "naturally" trust no one. How sensible though if we all adopted such a default position?
I can assure you that people who love liberty, do in fact adopt exactly that position.
People in gaol, many of whom are innocent did not know how it works
I prefer not to live in the kind of world described by Hobbes, and while I know there are bad actors in every human sphere, I trust that most police are concerned with justice, and do find the determination of guilt or innocence a matter of prime importance.
Your view of Hobbes is wrong like so many people who have not actually studied him.
It was his view that the Leviathan ought to provide all with the necessities of life before "it" had the right to expect compliance from the social contract.
And your view of the police is naive to say the least.
I assume you are not black or Irish.
I do love liberty, but do not find it natural
to trust no one.
Don't descend to a straw man immediately. Do not trust the police is what I am talking about.
Strangers should be trusted with some reserve. But generally most people can be trusted with minor things.
Not talking about my view of Hobbes, just referring to the kind of world he described.
You mean "nasty brutish and short", which is what everyone thinks they know about Hobbes. This is a place of imagination which he never seriously proposed exists anywhere.
I am cautious, not naive, still I allow that most police, like most people, are interested in right or wrong, not just a collar.
Not black, but I do have Irish ancestors, including a couple who were transported to Australia, and who probably had similar views to yours about police and justice. Thankfully things have changed, and thankfully I do not live in England.
I've lived in the UK and the US. Police in the UK are far more polite, helpful and trustworthy, than the US cops.
Also they do not tend to shoot you - not even accidentally. I would never go back to the US.
Being Irish in the 1970s when bombs were being let off all over the place led to a series of false convictions.
When you learn about them is that the police had convinced themselves. And THAT is the danger. They were "doing there job", most of them interested in right and wrong but pressured to get a collar as every police is.