Does Society Need Prisons?

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overman
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by overman »

I am a 42 year old blue collar father of 2 girls and happily married for 21 yrs . i am also a CONVICTED criminal . convicted of Violent crime , fraud , drug dealing , attempted break and enter , taking motor vehuicle without consent , breaches or probation too numerous to count and failure to appear . i have also assaulkted police , resisted arrest and once at a low and weak point in life i tried the Death by cop routine . i have stopped all this fun , a short while after my second daughter was born , i had been released from jail and i went home my oldest daughter was 18 mnths at the time , and she looked at me like she just couldnt believe i was there . i had been gone 9 mnths . we were a very close family . it hurt , like nothing had before . not ashamed to say that i cried . i am not a " crying" man . my father was a hard worker , extremely stoic , he never shamed us for emotion he listened and talked , was foirm and even smacked me a few times when i DESERVED it. but as for crying no the man was hard as steel . whether minus 35 at 4 in morning clearing driveway so he could drive an hr. to work in treacherous condoitions , work all day drive hr home 6 oclock return time. feed cows , chickens , turkeys. goats , pigs, rabbits , ducks and geese then eat and fall asleep in chair after a beer he never complained or took a day off. my granddads on both sides fought WW2 , grandma was english and went thru bombings etc. no crying was not something we did . noone will say i look soft i have become sternfaced ,heavy browed most are intimidated when i look at them. i have been told by all my teachers i was intelligent ,well spoken etc. i coulkd do anything. i became friends with the "tough" guys at school my own age , after moving to extremely rural town . i got into 2 fights first day as these towns were still majorily made up the old town settler families . farmers and loggers . big strong boys who as they got older , loved to drink and fight . firrst day school 2 fights , its not like movies when u beat up someone theres always someone else , usually older and bigger who hears and wants a piece of u . this happened thru school . up into highschool. it made me fearless , and it gave me one hell of a reputation . towns people still talk about me , and after 20 yrs, being gone i was back for 2 days before police ,showed up knocking at door , and people started to pass around i was back. i have moved 10 hrs away from where i grew up even had people approach me asking if i was me. everywhere i go as crazy as it seems people come up and say something like " wow man are u blank? i saw u fight like 10 guys at blank ...it was awesome " or something to that effect . i say this NOT for egotistical reasons , this rep , has downsides too . i am too intimatly aware of them now that i am older. i say this because i need you to understand , i was one of those people , well educated college / university types talk about when they say criminal . I came into contact with organized bikers , mafia, black street gangs even some triad / yakuza types . i was not ever a gang member , but i got along just fine with them

Please understand that when i say this i MEAN it . YES we NEED JAILS. yes there are some terrible mistakes that happen , NOTHING is perfect . there ARE cops who are criminal and guards too. when i was locked up[ or on street I NEVER ONCE met someone who was not guilty . I never once met someone who was not willing to re-offend . I never once met someone who changed or didnt justify what they did. ME INCLUDED , even now 10 years out of trouble i am capable of doing same things. I have realized that my temper is a problem I have learned strategies to deal with it such as . I am much more removed from sociewty these days i work , go home be with my wife and kids , or head into woods for peace and quiet. I was lucky in that my lovely wife understands and somehow has ca calming effect on me too. I remove myself from situations that start to make me feel the way i do before i would "snap" avoidance . essentially avoidance is my strategy. anger is my burden in life , it can be productive , but all consuming at times too. Majority of criminals are EXTREMELY GOOD MANIPULATORS. its not even concious thought . its just what they do . if u meet violent offenders 99% will be violent until death . their reasoning for doing it is good to kno too , if they just did it randomly then they always will . rapists will too , in jail sex offenders DO NOT FEEL BAD , they TRADE STORIES ABOUT VICTIMS , then ACT SORRY WHEN CHAPLAIN IS AROUND or LAWYER etc. POLICE are needed . whats more is that the media is trying to re write reality , people can talk stats , and or show examples of so and sos crime etc. but there is even a difference along racial lines and this is not about hate . if you go into jails that are predominatly white there is less violence , they are much more relaxed , in jails here in canada if its majority african then violence, knives are normalized . even the phones become "owned " by african cliques who hang them upside down and force everyone not of the clique to use 1 phone . or u have to ask permission. in toronto i even got aklong with them , i didnt have proiblems , so please understand that this is not hatred ormsomething speaking rite now. its just REALITY. what im trying to show u is that the criminal still tries criminality in jail . violent criminals laugh when someone gets seriously hurt , they try to provoke younge3r violent criminals into action . thdy plan future crimes all the while acting like angels in court . when i first got arrested i was busted with an ounce of marijuana , i had it separated in 4 bags bcuz i wanted to sell 3 quarteers to pay for mine plus make spending cash . my lawyer suggested to me that i had separated it so i had some for the entire month , even the lawyers help to facillitate crime . the media does , even politicians . when you good educated people went to school u had a friend who became criminal , he seemed like good guy right ? but how many time were you scared or intimidated or bullied ? how many times do you walk down a street and see a group of guys standing here or there and you avoid ? now imagine they were free to come to your neighborhood or house and do all the things they wanted any time they felt like it ? imagine a REAL HATE filled person holding you fathers down while friends of theirs assault your wife or kids < imagine your wife crying and you concoling her telling her theres is nothing to worry about because some one broke in and stole everything whikle you were at work . how do u tell her shes safe ? we live in funny times where reality is scewed in the media and online . politicized etc. there are reasons this is happening . even when things are dressed up in good flavors of morality and being a good person they serve agendas . the universities and coplleges are filled with profs who are hired because they tow this line , ensuring students think the toughts they want you to think . do not fall into this trap . yes mistakes are made , yes there are 1 out of 100 who change wor try to stop , yes they have sad back stories , but make no mistake my friends bad people exist , and they want nothing more then to take everything from you, terrorize you, rape , hurt and kill . this is very true and if anarchy reigned so many of you who do mean well woukd be its first victims. we NEED TOUGHER LAWS, TOUGHER SENTENCES etc, i say this knowing one day i might have to do more time , i promise you and i wish it werent so , but rough men are needed to keep the wolf at bay.
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LuckyR
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by LuckyR »

Great contrast between the theoretical and the reality. Kudos to you.
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Elindeque1992
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by Elindeque1992 »

Where I am from, it does not matter what crime you commit. You just pay a few hundred dollars or less, and then you get released. If the world watches, that is the only time they do not get away with it. So no, it does not always help to have a prison.
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LuckyR
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by LuckyR »

Elindeque1992 wrote: September 21st, 2023, 2:24 pm Where I am from, it does not matter what crime you commit. You just pay a few hundred dollars or less, and then you get released. If the world watches, that is the only time they do not get away with it. So no, it does not always help to have a prison.
Intriguing. Where is this place?
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by Xenophon »

I reckon more gallows and whipping posts would provide low-cost alternatives to incarceration. As dear old Anton Long might say, "Quell the problem: cull the herd."

Conversely, countries could make a "human rights" issue of the matter. Declare that THEIR criminals deserve a "second chance" in the country of the miscreant's choice. The last time I was in Italy it was pretty apparent certain lands to the south were quietly doing that anyway.
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Lagayscienza
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by Lagayscienza »

Interesting and disturbing story overman.

Yes, bad people exist. Your post illustrates vividly the need for prisons. It's hard to see any other way. Punishment is one motivation for prisons. But for me, locking violent criminals up it's less about punishment and more about preventing harm to others. There may be lots of things that have contributed to a person becoming a violent criminal. It may be possible to address some of these causes so that recidivism is reduced. But some violent criminals seem to have been born that way and no amount of punishment will have any long term effect on them whatsoever. The only place for them is prison.
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Nyangor Otieno
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by Nyangor Otieno »

Of course! To keep the bad guy out. Prisons are needed not just to protect the innocent, vulnerable people out there but also to serve as a lesson to those who commit or perpetuate crime. If is also a sort of resort to victims as it gives them a sense of justice.
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by Belinda »

Overman's post rings true. And the question we need to address is 'do prisons reduce crime?'



Obviously, and I gather Overman would agree, prisons and imprisonment don't reduce criminality. Taking criminals out of society is a short term benefit only. In the long term we need to look at the causes of crime . From Overman's own testimony it's obviously the main and probably only cause of his crimes is his peer group when he was a child and a young man(His family was hard working and honest and there seems to have been no criminal or immoral behaviour to speak of there.)

Not every criminal is able to feel remorse. Those who, like Overman, can feel remorse ought not to be in prison but need to be introduced to a better way to live than being a criminal.

There are forensic psychologists whose work includes rehabilitation. I guess Overman would not have been a hard nut to crack. We need secure establishments and we also need adequate rehabilitiaton , which is part of the reason I am a socialist.
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Lagayscienza
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by Lagayscienza »

I think that's right, Belinda. Prisons can act as schools for crime. We need rehabilitation to help prevent recidivism so that people can go on to live productive and fulfilling lives, but also because prison is an incredibly expensive, perhaps the most expensive, option.

Criminlity is a result of both nature and nurture so, in order to do something about the nurture part, we need to improve socio-economic conditions so that people at the bottom of the heap, especially the young, are not driven to crime out of hopelessness and desparation.

Prisons are brutalizing for both the jailed and the jailors. And in prison, criminality can become hard-wired. Therefore, I think it should be a last resort and used only for people who demonstrate that they cannot change their criminal ways. Unfortunaltely, there are such people, often psychopaths, and there is little that can be done for them until we figure out how to change their brains.
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LuckyR
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by LuckyR »

Preventing and addressing existing crime are two completely different issues with completely separate solutions, that act in completely different timelines. To be honest the most effective crime prevention policy is probably widely available birth control and abortion for individuals who are not interested in being a (good) parent.
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Lagayscienza
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by Lagayscienza »

Indeed. Birth control and abortion for individuals who are not interested in being a (good) parent is a very effective means of reducing crime. And that goes to the socio-economic factors I mentioned. The best predictor of crime is poverty. Give poor people more control over their fertilty and they'll be better able to look after the one or two kids they do have. In America, the state legislatures and the SC are removing that control from people. They are perpetuating the poverty trap and making crime more likely. It's crazy! More childen living in poverty, more crime, more prisons, more expense. It's madness.
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LuckyR
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by LuckyR »

Lagayscienza wrote: June 21st, 2024, 11:17 am Indeed. Birth control and abortion for individuals who are not interested in being a (good) parent is a very effective means of reducing crime. And that goes to the socio-economic factors I mentioned. The best predictor of crime is poverty. Give poor people more control over their fertilty and they'll be better able to look after the one or two kids they do have. In America, the state legislatures and the SC are removing that control from people. They are perpetuating the poverty trap and making crime more likely. It's crazy! More childen living in poverty, more crime, more prisons, more expense. It's madness.
Yes, the permanent precipitous drop in murder rates in the US, starting exactly 17 years after Roe v Wade passed, is the proof.

Poverty wasn't conquered in 1990.
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Lagayscienza
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by Lagayscienza »

Was it ever conquered? I mean, ever in human history? Will it ever be conquered?
Still, if a problem is not able to be completely conquered, is that a reason to think that efforts at amelioration are pointless?
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LuckyR
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by LuckyR »

Lagayscienza wrote: June 21st, 2024, 1:00 pm Was it ever conquered? I mean, ever in human history? Will it ever be conquered?
Still, if a problem is not able to be completely conquered, is that a reason to think that efforts at amelioration are pointless?
Nope (though the poverty stricken in antiquity might disagree). My point was that in the absence of solving poverty (the driver of crime) crime was seriously curtailed through Roe v Wade.
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Lagayscienza
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by Lagayscienza »

Yes, that makes sense. Wanted children are more likely to be loved, nurtured and well provided for and to become adults who will be more able to live fulfilling lives and less likely to become criminals.
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