Does Society Need Prisons?
-
- Moderator
- Posts: 6105
- Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm
Re: Does Society Need Prisons?
Scott would agree that if he personally had no possibility of restraining a murderer or rapist harming his kids then he'd want some other peacekeeper to restrain the murderer or rapist thereby protecting Scott's kids.
I'm puzzled by what sort of society Scott wants. I expect Scott is well aware of legal extortion, legal slavery, and legal near-cannibalism that is caused and always has been caused by those who have unrestrained profit motives of international capitalism including warmongering. These activities cause far more suffering, violence, and death than do even the sum total of the most dangerous anti-social individuals.
What sort of political governance would protect the rights or welfare of the governed at home and abroad? I mean, the means of production including the human labour is closely bound up with social control in the form of prisons or other deterrents.
- Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
- The admin formerly known as Scott
- Posts: 5786
- Joined: January 20th, 2007, 6:24 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
- Contact:
Re: Does Society Need Prisons?
Thank you for your reply!
Scott wrote: ↑March 28th, 2023, 1:31 pm If I stop paying my car insurance, the car insurance will discontinue my coverage, and then if my car gets destroyed, and I ask them to buy me a new car, they will then refuse. I have no problem with that, and it makes perfect sense to me. Nothing that in that interaction between me and the insurance company was violent or coercive. No violent robbery occurred.
Typically, I don't call it a "tax" if it is voluntary and non-violent. Philosophically, as a matter of semantics, I only call it a "tax" if it is legal violent robbery. For more on that, please see my topic, Is taxation by big non-local governments violent robbery?
For example, I once lived in a large apartment complex with private roads, private garages, and over 100 apartments and a community pool and community fitness center. Keep in mind, at that time, I was working for below minimum wage as a bartender, making a significantly below average income for someone in the USA, really kind of poor by American standards, considering I had two kids to feed and such.
Yes, I am aware, and I appreciate you wisely pointing the existence of such things as legal slavery and legal violence. I think I make my position on such matters very clear in the following post:Belindi wrote: ↑March 29th, 2023, 2:14 pm I'm puzzled by what sort of society Scott wants. I expect Scott is well aware of legal extortion, legal slavery, and legal near-cannibalism [...] These activities cause far more suffering, violence, and death than do even the sum total of the most dangerous anti-social individuals.
Friends, I ask you to oppose ALL non-consensual non-defensive violence, even when it's legal or done by your government.
Thank you,
Scott
"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."
I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
- Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
- The admin formerly known as Scott
- Posts: 5786
- Joined: January 20th, 2007, 6:24 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
- Contact:
Re: Does Society Need Prisons?
Thank you for your comments!
Unfortunately, that doesn't provide any clarity for what is means to me. Perhaps more to the point, generally speaking, I consider both shouldness and justice to be superstitions, mean I don't believe either exist, if the words are even anything but nonsense. For more on that, please see the following topic of mine:Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑March 29th, 2023, 12:29 pmI'm sure the reference here is to laws that are unjust, [...]Scott wrote: ↑March 28th, 2023, 10:40 pm I still don't understand what you mean by "crimes that should not be crimes". Giving one example (the illegality of homosexuality) does not help me understand at all. Can you define what you mean by it more precisely, not just with examples? Namely, what do you mean by "should"?
A World Blinded by Sadistic Anger | How the dangerous superstition of justice leads to aggressive violence and misery
Can you define what you mean by the word 'appropriate' as you use it?Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑March 29th, 2023, 12:29 pm Hence "crimes that should not be crimes" — acts that would not be criminal if the law was more appropriately formed.
If it's something like moral propriety--such as something that might have a person gasp at the prospect of homosexuality and say "that's improper!" or say "it's inappropriate for two people of the same gender to have sex!"--then that's also a superstition I don't believe in.
Thank you,
Scott
"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."
I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
- Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
- The admin formerly known as Scott
- Posts: 5786
- Joined: January 20th, 2007, 6:24 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
- Contact:
Re: Does Society Need Prisons?
Thank you for your replies!
Scott wrote:If I stop paying my car insurance, the car insurance will discontinue my coverage, and then if my car gets destroyed, and I ask them to buy me a new car, they will then refuse. I have no problem with that, and it makes perfect sense to me. Nothing that in that interaction between me and the insurance company was violent or coercive. No violent robbery occurred.
Typically, I don't call it a "tax" if it is voluntary and non-violent. Philosophically, as a matter of semantics, I only call it a "tax" if it is legal violent robbery.
I get that when you violently imprison people if they refuse to buy your insurance, you might say and genuinely believe that is "for their own good" or "for the greater good". Likewise when one violently throws marijuana-smokers or gay people in prison, they may say and genuinely believe its "for their own good" or "for the greater good". In short, it's violent nanny statism. I adamantly oppose it; perhaps you support it.
I discuss my feelings, beliefs, and opinions about violent nanny statism in the following topics:
- Orwellian Agent-Smithism | How Control Freaks, God Complexes, And Violent Nanny Statism Attack Freedom and Diversity
- Dangerous Moral Busybodies | "A tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive."
- All the do-gooders are troublemakers: A plague of virtuous people | A perfectly pestiferous mass of a million saints
- Friends, I ask you to oppose all non-consensual non-defensive violence, even when it's legal or done by your own government.
Thank you,
Scott
"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."
I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
- Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
- The admin formerly known as Scott
- Posts: 5786
- Joined: January 20th, 2007, 6:24 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
- Contact:
Re: Does Society Need Prisons?
Scott wrote: ↑March 28th, 2023, 10:40 pm40% is a minority, so at least we agree that the majority of prisoners are only charged with non-violent crimes.
[...]
Nonetheless, can you provide the links to your specific source(s) for that statistic, meaning the 40% of all US prisoners being violent?
I ask because I am interested in the definition and criteria used for "violent criminal".
For example, an otherwise very peaceful gay person in Uganda who resists arrest and execution would then probably be considered a "violent criminal".
A woman who defended herself by physically resisting legal marital rape would herself be a "violent criminal".
If Martin Luther King had resisted arrest 1 of the 29 times he was arrested, he would have been deemed a "violent criminal".
I typed that URL into my browser and didn't see any stats.
But it's moot. I was just curious what your source was.
You will likely find those under "aggravated and simple assault".
John Oliver did a great, informative, and hilarious piece on school police in which he reports about how school officers arrested more than 54,000 students in s single school year. He reports about children being charged with assault for things such as throwing a paper airplane or Skittles. He reports about a five-year-old with ADHD who had a tantrum and was charged with battery on a police officer.
Those are many of the "violent criminals" you'll find in your statistics, and also help explain why arrests for violent crime go up so drastically when there's things like the war on drugs such as marijuana. It's hard to estimate just how much "violent crime" would instantly disappear if consensual crimes like marijuana possession or being gay were legalized.
Of the three categories in the Original Post (OP), many so-called "violent criminals" really fall into category 1 of the 3. But, regardless, many truly violent criminals fall into the 2nd category, not the 3rd, especially if the police started the conflict. I am extremely confident that the number that fall into the third category of the three is indeed teeny tiny. Heck, the police in the USA arrest over half of a million people for marijuana each year. Rapists and serial killers just cannot put up numbers like that.
But it's moot. It doesn't really matter if there is 100 of them, 1,000, or 10,000 in terms of what I am willing to do or do to them.
It's analogous to talking about whether their more pigs or cows in relation my vegetarianism. I'm not going to eat them either way.
Likewise, I oppose all non-consensual non-defensive violence (e.g. murder, rape, slavery, etc.). It's not something I do, and it's not something I support. You'll never see me hanging peaceful gay people or putting pacifists in prison. Indeed, you will never see my put anyone in prison. You could see me helping drag someone to the mental ward of a hospital, but only in very exceptional cases regarding very exceptional people.
Thank you,
Scott
"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."
I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
-
- Moderator
- Posts: 6105
- Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm
Re: Does Society Need Prisons?
I read your link to your book and philosophy. Of the Biblical sheep and goats I am normally one of the goats and only occasionally one of the sheep.This admission does nothing to absolve me.The apology of the Guardian newspaper to dead slaves and their descendants does nothing to absolve the wrongdoing of Europe and the US. It is however a sign that a conscience increasingly exists so let's hope that politics will work to free the oppressed classes who are most often the imprisoned ones.Scott wrote: ↑March 29th, 2023, 10:31 pm Hi, Belindi,
Thank you for your reply!
Scott wrote: ↑March 28th, 2023, 1:31 pm If I stop paying my car insurance, the car insurance will discontinue my coverage, and then if my car gets destroyed, and I ask them to buy me a new car, they will then refuse. I have no problem with that, and it makes perfect sense to me. Nothing that in that interaction between me and the insurance company was violent or coercive. No violent robbery occurred.
Typically, I don't call it a "tax" if it is voluntary and non-violent. Philosophically, as a matter of semantics, I only call it a "tax" if it is legal violent robbery. For more on that, please see my topic, Is taxation by big non-local governments violent robbery?
For example, I once lived in a large apartment complex with private roads, private garages, and over 100 apartments and a community pool and community fitness center. Keep in mind, at that time, I was working for below minimum wage as a bartender, making a significantly below average income for someone in the USA, really kind of poor by American standards, considering I had two kids to feed and such.Yes, I am aware, and I appreciate you wisely pointing the existence of such things as legal slavery and legal violence. I think I make my position on such matters very clear in the following post:Belindi wrote: ↑March 29th, 2023, 2:14 pm I'm puzzled by what sort of society Scott wants. I expect Scott is well aware of legal extortion, legal slavery, and legal near-cannibalism [...] These activities cause far more suffering, violence, and death than do even the sum total of the most dangerous anti-social individuals.
Friends, I ask you to oppose ALL non-consensual non-defensive violence, even when it's legal or done by your government.
Thank you,
Scott
I don't agree with Scott's stance on personal purity. Nobody is Jesus Christ and we all have to get our hands dirty if we want to make the world a better place. Neither do I agree with Scott on democracy. Nobody claims democracy is a panacea, but it's the best we can do in this world wheres strife is endemic.
- Pattern-chaser
- Premium Member
- Posts: 8380
- Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
- Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
- Location: England
Re: Does Society Need Prisons?
That's a thoroughly mature outlook. In answer to your question, I regret that there may always be citizens who, for the safety of the public at large, need to be held apart from the rest of us. I also agree that our aim should be to minimise the number of citizens who need to be treated in this way, if we can.LuckyR wrote: ↑March 29th, 2023, 1:08 pm My understanding of this thread is that among the numerous options available currently in the criminal justice system, can the prison option be eliminated? While I certainly support shifting (drastically) the percentage of criminals in the prison system lower, I do not support shifting it to zero. You?
"Who cares, wins"
- Pattern-chaser
- Premium Member
- Posts: 8380
- Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
- Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
- Location: England
Re: Does Society Need Prisons?
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑March 29th, 2023, 12:29 pm Hence "crimes that should not be crimes" — acts that would not be criminal if the law was more appropriately formed.
I doubt that I can describe what I mean in words that you will find acceptable. The best I can think of to offer is that "appropriate" expands to "appropriate to the needs of society".
No, no, nothing like that.Scott wrote: ↑March 29th, 2023, 10:41 pm If it's something like moral propriety--such as something that might have a person gasp at the prospect of homosexuality and say "that's improper!" or say "it's inappropriate for two people of the same gender to have sex!"--then that's also a superstition I don't believe in.
"Who cares, wins"
-
- Posts: 2138
- Joined: May 9th, 2012, 3:13 pm
Re: Does Society Need Prisons?
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/ ... ading-gaol
- Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
- The admin formerly known as Scott
- Posts: 5786
- Joined: January 20th, 2007, 6:24 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
- Contact:
Re: Does Society Need Prisons?
Sorry, I simply don't understand what you mean at all.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑March 30th, 2023, 8:34 amPattern-chaser wrote: ↑March 29th, 2023, 12:29 pm Hence "crimes that should not be crimes" — acts that would not be criminal if the law was more appropriately formed.I doubt that I can describe what I mean in words that you will find acceptable. The best I can think of to offer is that "appropriate" expands to "appropriate to the needs of society".
No, no, nothing like that.Scott wrote: ↑March 29th, 2023, 10:41 pm If it's something like moral propriety--such as something that might have a person gasp at the prospect of homosexuality and say "that's improper!" or say "it's inappropriate for two people of the same gender to have sex!"--then that's also a superstition I don't believe in.
I don't find your words 'unacceptable'. Rather, I don't even understand what they (and by extension you) mean. I don't know what you mean to say, at all.
"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."
I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
- Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
- The admin formerly known as Scott
- Posts: 5786
- Joined: January 20th, 2007, 6:24 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
- Contact:
Re: Does Society Need Prisons?
Thank you for your reply.
According to you, what is my stance on "personal purity"?
Is it possible to quote for me verbatim a sentence of mine with which you disagree?
I'm not sure what you mean. What don't you agree with me about exactly? How sure are you that I believe what you think I believe in regard to that alleged disagreement? In any case, would you mind quoting verbatim a sentence of mine I wrote with which you disagree, presumably one about democracy?
(I'm not easily offended. I love discussing points of disagreement and learning about different views. More than that, if I believe or say anything untrue at any time, I like to be told and made aware of it, and I appreciate those who help me become aware of a mistake in my writing or beliefs, be it a factual error or even just a typo. I'm the type who likes to be told when I have spinach in my teeth, not the type who kills or despises the messenger in that case.)
Thank you,
Scott
"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."
I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
- Pattern-chaser
- Premium Member
- Posts: 8380
- Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
- Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
- Location: England
Re: Does Society Need Prisons?
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑March 29th, 2023, 12:29 pm Hence "crimes that should not be crimes" — acts that would not be criminal if the law was more appropriately formed.
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑March 30th, 2023, 8:34 am I doubt that I can describe what I mean in words that you will find acceptable. The best I can think of to offer is that "appropriate" expands to "appropriate to the needs of society".
Laws are not absolute, or defined externally to humanity. They are not objective, but rather they are created by humans, for our own reasons, according to our own 'logic', or to no 'logic' at all. In that context, the appropriateness of a law being "appropriate to the needs of society" makes more sense, I think? Our best laws are those that meet the needs of most or all of us, most or all of the time.
For example, some laws are held, by some, to be inappropriate, maybe even unjust. Such laws should, perhaps, never have been created in the first place?
"Who cares, wins"
- Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
- The admin formerly known as Scott
- Posts: 5786
- Joined: January 20th, 2007, 6:24 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
- Contact:
Re: Does Society Need Prisons?
Sorry, no, that context doesn't help me figure out what you mean by "appropriateness" or "appropriate" at all. Likewise, I don't know what you mean by the phrase, ""appropriate to the needs of society". Can you define these words, or provide a specific definition that matches your usage? I could look them up in a dictionary (American or British?), but it would list many different definition and I wouldn't know which one if any match what you mean by the word 'appropriate' or 'appropriateness'.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑March 30th, 2023, 10:56 amPattern-chaser wrote: ↑March 29th, 2023, 12:29 pm Hence "crimes that should not be crimes" — acts that would not be criminal if the law was more appropriately formed.Scott wrote: ↑March 29th, 2023, 10:41 pm Can you define what you mean by the word 'appropriate' as you use it?
If it's something like moral propriety--such as something that might have a person gasp at the prospect of homosexuality and say "that's improper!" or say "it's inappropriate for two people of the same gender to have sex!"--then that's also a superstition I don't believe in.
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑March 30th, 2023, 8:34 am I doubt that I can describe what I mean in words that you will find acceptable. The best I can think of to offer is that "appropriate" expands to "appropriate to the needs of society".Laws are not absolute, or defined externally to humanity. They are not objective, but rather they are created by humans, for our own reasons, according to our own 'logic', or to no 'logic' at all. In that context, the appropriateness of a law being "appropriate to the needs of society" makes more sense, I think?
Scott wrote: ↑March 29th, 2023, 10:41 pm
Can you define what you mean by the word 'appropriate' as you use it?
If it's something like moral propriety--such as something that might have a person gasp at the prospect of homosexuality and say "that's improper!" or say "it's inappropriate for two people of the same gender to have sex!"--then that's also a superstition I don't believe in.
Oh, I think what you are talking about is a superstition I don't believe in. In other words, I don't believe it exists. I explain that in the following two topics of mine:Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑March 30th, 2023, 10:56 am For example, some laws are held, by some, to be inappropriate, maybe even unjust. Such laws should, perhaps, never have been created in the first place?
[Emphasis added.]
- A World Blinded by Sadistic Anger | How the dangerous superstition of justice leads to aggressive violence and misery
- An elaboration on how judgemental moralizing and the superstition of 'moral law' infringes on free-spirited inner peace
Of course, my book, In It Together, makes the stronger, more convincing, more efficient-to-read, and more agreeable case, in part since I worked on the book for over 5 years and employed multiple paid professionals to help craft, edit, and refine it. So it offers much more value per word read than any of my posts here on these forums could ever come close to doing.
Thank you,
Scott
"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."
I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
-
- Posts: 305
- Joined: October 2nd, 2022, 1:19 am
Re: Does Society Need Prisons?
You are quite correct that some will still commit crimes.
1. less laws equal less crimes?
2. most crimes do not need a prison sentence, damn, taking peoples phones away would be worse for most people!
Placing people into a life after prison, where they feel separated and kinda blacklisted from society, is no the answer. People need to have hope and a fresh start, otherwise like in much of psychology their situation presents as a wall in the mind. When the mind cannot get past this wall it seeks a way out, sometimes to such a great degree that they will commit suicide.
We see this also in cultures where something like child sex is culturally acceptable, but also has a dualistic religion – so they believe in good/evil. The duplicity of this means that if one believes it is ok to do that, but also that it is evil [in varying degrees] then to get past the wall, they now need a scapegoat, someone they can blame and say ‘look, those guys in the west are the evil ones’. In fact I think that this gets desperate that a ‘drive’* is manifest, to the degree that a terrorist will drive* into innocent pedestrians.
-
- Moderator
- Posts: 6105
- Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm
Re: Does Society Need Prisons?
I have found the text where I got the first , "personal purity" ,notion of your philosophy. I hope you did not think I was being sarcastic, I wasn't. I was paraphrasing your "spiritual philosophy of spiritual freedom". I'd better have quoted you. Moreover, the "material world of the flesh" has had a bad image from the powerful Abrahamic religions and the flesh deserves to be respected .Scott wrote: ↑March 30th, 2023, 10:49 am Hi, Belindi,
Thank you for your reply.
According to you, what is my stance on "personal purity"?
Is it possible to quote for me verbatim a sentence of mine with which you disagree?
I'm not sure what you mean. What don't you agree with me about exactly? How sure are you that I believe what you think I believe in regard to that alleged disagreement? In any case, would you mind quoting verbatim a sentence of mine I wrote with which you disagree, presumably one about democracy?
(I'm not easily offended. I love discussing points of disagreement and learning about different views. More than that, if I believe or say anything untrue at any time, I like to be told and made aware of it, and I appreciate those who help me become aware of a mistake in my writing or beliefs, be it a factual error or even just a typo. I'm the type who likes to be told when I have spinach in my teeth, not the type who kills or despises the messenger in that case.)
Thank you,
Scott
Scott wrote:
Political philosophy mostly only interests me to the extent that it acts as an analogue for my spiritual philosophy of spiritual freedom. For instance, self-government can act as an analogue of self-discipline, and self-employment can act as an analogue of both of self-government and self-discipline.
Primarily, the authorities and enslavements I seek to firmly, stubbornly, and defiantly reject are much more than merely petty political ones. I suspect generally only those people who are way too attached to the material world of the flesh could care very much about the topical human politics of a sliver of time on a tiny planet in an endless sky.
2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month
Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023
Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023