I agree. However, psychopathy and "sociopathy" are not really mental illnesses. Those terms are more judgmental than medical.LuckyR wrote: ↑June 14th, 2022, 10:22 pmThat's incarceration in a different location. Fully functioning criminal psychopaths don't belong in mental institutions with the non-functioning.GE Morton wrote: ↑June 14th, 2022, 12:37 pmEasy one. Mental institutions. The "de-institutionalization" movement beginning in the '50s --- another hare-brained idea of leftish social scientists --- resulted in closure of dozens of hospitals and released 500,000 patients to the streets, many of whom ended up in jail.LuckyR wrote: ↑June 14th, 2022, 10:30 am Here's a stat I happened across:
There are about 6 million adult males in the penal system. About 16% are psychopaths (about 1 million). This equates to about 93% of all adult male psychopaths being in jail, prison, parole or probation. One of the hallmarks of psychopathy is the resistance to rehabilitation.
So, what is the alternative to incarceration for this substantial minority of the prison population?
https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/ar ... es/2013-10
Does Society Need Prisons?
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?
- Pattern-chaser
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 14th, 2022, 2:33 pm Likewise. There are too many innocent people convicted for us to be at ease with such an irreversible punishment. First let's guarantee that no innocent people are convicted; then, perhaps, we can safely re-consider capital punishment...?
That's the $64000 question, isn't it? And that is my point. Until and unless we can be confident that the prisoner we choose to execute is guilty, how could we implement such a terrible and irreversible sentence?
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?
Robert66 wrote: ↑June 14th, 2022, 5:39 pmYes, let's! How though?Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 14th, 2022, 2:33 pmLikewise. There are too many innocent people convicted for us to be at ease with such an irreversible punishment. First let's guarantee that no innocent people are convicted; then, perhaps, we can safely re-consider capital punishment...?
Error-prone humans for me, every time. Do we really think that AIs could offer error-free judgement(s)? Their objectivity and flawlessness depends on the way it is programmed, maybe by humans, maybe reprogrammed by itself. I'll opt for the 'devil we know'.
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 14th, 2022, 2:33 pm Likewise. There are too many innocent people convicted for us to be at ease with such an irreversible punishment. First let's guarantee that no innocent people are convicted; then, perhaps, we can safely re-consider capital punishment...?
I think all criminal punishment is "unevenly distributed on racial grounds", in many countries. As to the latter, it depends on whether you punish for the purpose of revenge, or not.
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Sounds to me as though you trust an error-prone system. In that case I agree with you.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 15th, 2022, 1:47 pmRobert66 wrote: ↑June 14th, 2022, 5:39 pmYes, let's! How though?Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 14th, 2022, 2:33 pmLikewise. There are too many innocent people convicted for us to be at ease with such an irreversible punishment. First let's guarantee that no innocent people are convicted; then, perhaps, we can safely re-consider capital punishment...?Error-prone humans for me, every time. Do we really think that AIs could offer error-free judgement(s)? Their objectivity and flawlessness depends on the way it is programmed, maybe by humans, maybe reprogrammed by itself. I'll opt for the 'devil we know'.
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?
No, I'm choosing between 2 undesirable choices. Humans make mistakes, but we have much past experience of the sort of mistakes that are made. In the case of AIs, there is no telling what sort of errors they might make. As to the latter, I assume it is humans identifying the error(s), not the AIs, which might think their conclusions correct, according to the criteria they have adopted.Robert66 wrote: ↑June 15th, 2022, 4:22 pmSounds to me as though you trust an error-prone system. In that case I agree with you.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 15th, 2022, 1:47 pmRobert66 wrote: ↑June 14th, 2022, 5:39 pmYes, let's! How though?Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 14th, 2022, 2:33 pm
Likewise. There are too many innocent people convicted for us to be at ease with such an irreversible punishment. First let's guarantee that no innocent people are convicted; then, perhaps, we can safely re-consider capital punishment...?Error-prone humans for me, every time. Do we really think that AIs could offer error-free judgement(s)? Their objectivity and flawlessness depends on the way it is programmed, maybe by humans, maybe reprogrammed by itself. I'll opt for the 'devil we know'.
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Elsewhere Pattern-chaser has stated that a justice system which convicts innocent people is untrustworthy. I disagree.
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Or acquits guilty ones, which also occurs from time to time. Whether the system is trustworthy depends on how reliable the system must be before you trust it. If the standard is "Never fails," then it is not trustworthy. If "Usually gets it right," then it is. The first, of course, is impractical.
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?
Thank you for saving me the trouble of posting that. I didn't say so explicitly because I thought it was obvious...
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?
I think you are applying binary thinking where a more nuanced approach might prove more constructive and useful. My statements were never intended to be interpreted in such a binary fashion, in such a nuanced subject. The threshold between 'trustworthy' and 'untrustworthy' is a grey area, a spectrum, if you will, and not an 'if you're not with us, you're against us' playground argument.
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?
If you wished to avoid a "binary" interpretation, why state 'A legal system that sometimes punishes the innocent is not trustworthy'?Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 16th, 2022, 9:14 amI think you are applying binary thinking where a more nuanced approach might prove more constructive and useful. My statements were never intended to be interpreted in such a binary fashion, in such a nuanced subject. The threshold between 'trustworthy' and 'untrustworthy' is a grey area, a spectrum, if you will, and not an 'if you're not with us, you're against us' playground argument.
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?
And anyone who has had the misfortune to have direct contact even with the world's most "trusted" systems will know that the only way to get on with them is to treat them with utter caution.
"Never say anything to the police".
The police are not there to deliver justice, but to get a collar. It does not matter your guilt or innocence. You will find yourself in the dock for one reason only; if they think they can convict.
If you are poor, you will have to struggle with defence, and have a very small chance to keep your liberty.
If you are rich then you have a good chance to get off even if guilty.
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 16th, 2022, 9:14 am I think you are applying binary thinking where a more nuanced approach might prove more constructive and useful. My statements were never intended to be interpreted in such a binary fashion, in such a nuanced subject. The threshold between 'trustworthy' and 'untrustworthy' is a grey area, a spectrum, if you will, and not an 'if you're not with us, you're against us' playground argument.
I was using my language, as I thought, in a non-binary fashion. But we are so used to binary thinking, we tend to interpret what is written in that light. I apologise for my lack of clarity.
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