Does Society Need Prisons?

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Belindi
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by Belindi » November 4th, 2018, 10:40 am

GE Morton wrote:
November 4th, 2018, 10:14 am
Belindi wrote:
November 4th, 2018, 9:17 am
Why not, GEMorton? I expect that you can answer that question if you think about it.

The parasites are always a nuisance. To deduce social parasites we need improved educational opportunities for disadvantaged minorities.The more productive citizens the better. It is universally acknowledged that prevention of crime is less costly than cure for crime.
"Disadvantaged minorities" have the same educational opportunities as everyone else. Public K-12 schools are open to all, and (in the US) so are government-guaranteed student loans for college.

But, as the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Most criminals have no desire, and no intention, to ever become productive, Belindi.
Educational opportunities for disadvantaged minorities as often as not include improved housing; imagine how a kid can do her homework where there is no quiet space for her. Some disadvantaged children are carers for disabled parents of siblings and these children need extra care from community finances.In the US there remains the racial minority in need of integration into mainstream advantages. I could go on but I hope that you see where my argument is leading.

Student loans should not exist. Instead there needs to be free tertiary education for all.

Human criminals are not horses but are members of a species that might be educated as opposed to trained. Education and rehabilitation of criminals include motivating and re-motivating after traumatic immersion in crimes or drug dependency.

GE Morton
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by GE Morton » November 4th, 2018, 1:34 pm

Belindi wrote:
November 4th, 2018, 10:40 am

Educational opportunities for disadvantaged minorities as often as not include improved housing; imagine how a kid can do her homework where there is no quiet space for her. Some disadvantaged children are carers for disabled parents of siblings and these children need extra care from community finances.In the US there remains the racial minority in need of integration into mainstream advantages. I could go on but I hope that you see where my argument is leading.
Yes, I see where it is leading, and also from where it comes. There are numerous factors, genetic, cultural, and situational, which affect a child's ability or motivation to take advantage of the educational opportunities available. Your premise seems to be that other citizens have some duty to "equalize" those, at the cost of their own well-being and happiness.

I know of no basis for such a duty. Unless Bruno's disadvantages or misfortunes are of Alfie's doing, or unless there is some sort of contract between them, Alfie has no duties to mitigate them. Alfie is not Bruno's slave; Bruno has no claim upon Alfie's services or the products of his labor. If you think otherwise, please explain the origin and moral basis of that presumed duty.
Student loans should not exist. Instead there needs to be free tertiary education for all.
There is no such thing as "free" education. The only question is whether the person benefiting from it pays for it, or someone else is forced to pay for it.

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LuckyR
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by LuckyR » November 5th, 2018, 3:27 am

GE Morton wrote:
November 4th, 2018, 10:14 am
Belindi wrote:
November 4th, 2018, 9:17 am
Why not, GEMorton? I expect that you can answer that question if you think about it.

The parasites are always a nuisance. To deduce social parasites we need improved educational opportunities for disadvantaged minorities.The more productive citizens the better. It is universally acknowledged that prevention of crime is less costly than cure for crime.
"Disadvantaged minorities" have the same educational opportunities as everyone else. Public K-12 schools are open to all, and (in the US) so are government-guaranteed student loans for college.

But, as the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Most criminals have no desire, and no intention, to ever become productive
, Belindi.
Then why do crimes rates fluctuate so much from decade to decade?
"As usual... it depends."

Belindi
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by Belindi » November 5th, 2018, 12:43 pm

Your premise seems to be that other citizens have some duty to "equalize" those, at the cost of their own well-being and happiness.
None of the three clauses of your sentence is correct, GEMorton.

Citizens have duties that include helping to make their society run smoothly.

When there is a large differential between rich and poor the society won't run smoothly.

When poor people are not given extra help with housing, health, and education much talent is lost to the society of which you, GEMorton, are a component part.

GE Morton
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by GE Morton » November 5th, 2018, 2:23 pm

Belindi wrote:
November 5th, 2018, 12:43 pm
Your premise seems to be that other citizens have some duty to "equalize" those, at the cost of their own well-being and happiness.
None of the three clauses of your sentence is correct, GEMorton.
That sentence does not have 3 clauses. But I take it that you deny that your premise is that citizens have a duty to "equalize" natural and situational inequalities. Correct?

Instead you say, "Citizens have duties that include helping to make their society run smoothly."

That claim is much too vague to evaluate. So leaving aside the question of whether there is any such duty (which cannot be answered until what "smoothing" entails is specified), from your earlier comments it still looks like equalizing or at least reducing material inequalities is what you think is necessary to make "society run smoothly." Is that correct?
When there is a large differential between rich and poor the society won't run smoothly.
The only reason why it would not that I can think of is that the differential will elicit envy and resentments, which may motivate violence. But surely envy is not a morally defensible justification for violating someone's rights. The way to deal with those violators is to imprison them, not reward their envy by paying them "protection money" stolen from honest citizens.

Any means of making "society run smoothly" that entails violating someone's rights must be ruled out. E.g., one major source of friction in many Western societies today is racial and ethnic animosities and hostilities. No doubt those societies would run more smoothly if all racial and ethnic minorities were deported (or exterminated). But I doubt you would agree that end justifies that means.
When poor people are not given extra help with housing, health, and education much talent is lost to the society of which you, GEMorton, are a component part.
"Society" is not a moral agent, and the only losses it can suffer are the losses suffered by the individuals who constitute it. It is for each individual to decide whether the anticipated losses to him by not subsidizing others' education, housing, etc., are greater than the cost to him of doing so.

Belindi
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by Belindi » November 5th, 2018, 4:01 pm

GEMorton replied to my :
"When there is a large differential between rich and poor the society won't run smoothly."

The only reason why it would not that I can think of is that the differential will elicit envy and resentments,
That is one reason, but a comparatively trivial reason compared with main reason which is the power differential. Personal affluence and its advantages such as health, housing, legal services, and education give the possessor a power advantage in particular a political power advantage. I hope that you will not be tedious and ask for the details.

GE Morton
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by GE Morton » November 6th, 2018, 1:22 am

Belindi wrote:
November 5th, 2018, 4:01 pm
GEMorton replied to my :
"When there is a large differential between rich and poor the society won't run smoothly."

The only reason why it would not that I can think of is that the differential will elicit envy and resentments,
That is one reason, but a comparatively trivial reason compared with main reason which is the power differential. Personal affluence and its advantages such as health, housing, legal services, and education give the possessor a power advantage in particular a political power advantage. I hope that you will not be tedious and ask for the details.
That is a catechism often recited by the Left, but it is vacuous. No "rich" person has any "power" over any poor person. He only has power over his own actions and assets, just as does the poor person. He exerts no force against the poor person (which is what "power" means). What the leftist actually seeks is power over the rich person --- the means and authority to force the rich person to serve him and support him.

Belindi
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by Belindi » November 6th, 2018, 8:29 am

What the leftist actually seeks is power over the rich person --- the means and authority to force the rich person to serve him and support him.
I know about how the powerful fear the oppressed.

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