Is abortion murder?

Have philosophical discussions about politics, law, and government.
Featured Article: Definition of Freedom - What Freedom Means to Me
Post Reply
captain_crunk
Posts: 41
Joined: March 1st, 2007, 5:45 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Contact:

Post by captain_crunk »

MindFreeza wrote:
captain_crunk wrote: A valid arguement on your part, but not relevent to the topic at hand. This is an ETHICS discussion, not a LEGAL discussion. Thank you.

No need to yell. I was referring to the question of whether or not abortion is murder. Murder is a legal term. Also, the study of law does not exist apart from the study of ethics, the two are inter-woven. Not to mention the fact that the person to whom I was addressing chose to rebut the opposite argument from the one I was outlining. Thank you. :wink:
You're welcome :D
Bk2Kant
Posts: 47
Joined: March 1st, 2007, 11:22 pm

Post by Bk2Kant »

Ok just to clarify here's what I was saying. I was merely making a comment as to whatd efinition of murder we were referring to. I think that the law and morality do cooralate since the law is supposedly a reflection of morality (or what we think it to be). I think it is harder however to argue for a legal point than a philosophical one. This is not to in any way lessen the discipline, I just think that law only considers scienticif concepts and things which are tangible, I think for the purpose of such a topic it would be best to determine one way or another if we broaden our understanding of the terms murder and person.. That being said I plan to post a topic about what it means to be a person feel free to respond o that part there.
jrwelch
Posts: 2
Joined: March 12th, 2007, 11:09 pm

Post by jrwelch »

My opinion is this. Please don't get halfway through the following part and just start responding.

Abortion is murder by definition. I'm stamping out the life of something that is growing inside a woman's body. I'm fine with that. I'm against partial birth abortions though, because that's just messed up to me. Anyhoo, I'm fine with the idea of killing that thing. And here's why.

I don't think that an entity which has not developed an identity but is called "human" has the same standing as a human. Why should I consider it a human?

I'm asking this question so that maybe you guess could respond and then I would be forced to defend my opinion, thus eliciting my underlying feelings about the issue for me.
DanteAzrael
Posts: 74
Joined: March 13th, 2007, 7:39 pm
Location: Winston-Salem, North Carolina
Contact:

Post by DanteAzrael »

I do not see abortion as murder. Before any other question can be asked, the question "Does the child have the right to be in the womb?" needs to be asked. Many people do not think of this question and I'm sure a lot of people would probably go insane with such a question, but it's a legitimate question. Does it have a right to be there? Or is it merely a byproduct of an action? My opinion...It is a byproduct of an action, therefore, it has no rights and the only rights it the baby can be given is by the mother (until it is born and able to function outside of the womb without the mother). The baby is there by the choice of the mother, not by anything else but nature's system. It cannot be murder if it is not violating any rights.

Most abortions, by the way, are done way before the fetus is formed that well...and most people who get them done when they're past the 6th month are irrational imbeciles who are putting themselves in serious danger.

People often do not think about the mother's life. They talk about being pro-life, but in the process, ignore life and they ignore life that has the rights. Fetuses do not have rights. They are not individual functioning beings. They are growths inside of a female that can potentially be born. And potential has nothing to do with actual. I'm tired of all the talk from some I've debated with about it potentially will be a human and be born. Unfortunately, the actuality is that it is either a bunch of cells, or a clinging lifeform only there by the choice and right of the mother. Potentiality does not exist without choice...Actuality exists 24/7.
When a man declares: "There are no blacks and whites [in morality]" he is making a psychological confession, and what he means is: "I am unwilling to be wholly good—and please don't regard me as wholly evil!" - Ayn Rand
thestateimin
Posts: 9
Joined: March 3rd, 2007, 7:06 pm

Post by thestateimin »

I do believe abortion is murder, but I still support it. You wouldn't believe how many things each and every one of you kills daily. Every time you have an itch, you kill millions of skin cells that are living. Every time you wash your hands you kill bacteria (bacteria actually have the ability to communicate in a social way). Every time you eat meat you support companies who murder animals. Every time someone uses any kind of birth control, potential children are "murdered." Death is all around us, we just have to not get so caught up in the word "murder."

This is not to say I support the murder of a human being. I assume none of us remember being fetuses. I also assume that a fetus would not feel pain or betrayal while being aborted. I don't believe people should ruin their lives because they believe nothing should ever die.
MyshiningOne
Posts: 202
Joined: March 7th, 2007, 9:51 pm

Post by MyshiningOne »

It depends on whether you think a fetus is a life.
It's not what you know that makes
you smart, it's knowing what you don't know.
Invictus_88
Posts: 597
Joined: September 5th, 2007, 4:25 am
Contact:

Post by Invictus_88 »

Odd that so many of you state rawly that "Abortion is by definition murder" when - by definition - it is most certainly not.

You are missing the point, really. The central point is not its legal position, but its moral position.
FilosofoMusicale
Posts: 7
Joined: September 7th, 2007, 11:33 pm

Post by FilosofoMusicale »

I'm sad to see that this debate has not had any activity for awhile, so I am going to try and spark it again, as to provoke more discussion and eventually, some kind of resolution - which, in itself, is a dubious task, since we all have different moral, political, religious, and philosophical agendas. But I find it unsatisfying when there is not some kind of resolution, which this board currently lacks.
Does the child have the right to be in the womb...Fetuses do not have rights. They are not individual functioning beings. They are growths inside of a female that can potentially be born. And potential has nothing to do with actual.
DanteAzreal, I find this comment very confusing. To me, it seems that the potential for a fetus is not the fetus itself, but the gamete cells before the mingling of sex cells. And what is an “individual functioning being.” You use a very specific terminology here, and I want to understand what you precisely mean by “individual,” “functioning,” and “being.” (most especially functioning.) For, if we take the idea of a fetus functioning to the good, a fetus can only be a fetus to the best potentiality that a fetus can; thus, it is good, and has a right to life. In addition, I think your statement that “a potential has nothing to do with the actual” is a fallacious, since there is no way that an actuality can exist if there was never a potentially to begin with. I cannot expect a rock to burn when I throw it in the fire because it never had the potentiality to be a burning object, yet, when I place a log in a fire, it does have the potentiality to burn. Semantics, yes, but it is important.
You wouldn't believe how many things each and every one of you kills daily. Every time you have an itch, you kill millions of skin cells that are living.
Thestateimin, I do not find this answer satisfying either, as I see the human person as a more important being, than, say, a skin cell. My skin cell, when it does, never has the capacity for higher-level thinking, producing humanity, or even intelligible communication. To be certain, a zygote or fetus, a collection of cells, does have this capacity. Also, if we assume you are right, we need to see ourselves as no more important than an amoeba, belittling our status as a rational animal.

As for me, I find myself in a grey area between political rights and philosophical belief. In terms of political rights, I believe that a woman has full right over her body and that, if she wants to have an abortion, she ought to have the right. However, I do not necessarily think it is a good thing. Indeed, there are times when a woman’s body, because of particular physiology, will not be able to maintain the health of a child and her own health, that perhaps the mother would prefer her own life to the life of a developing human – and while most cases like this are indeed sad ones (I doubt very highly that most of these parents willingly give up their child), it is understandable why one would choose an abortion. In contrast, when one willingly aborts a fetus, it shows that, more likely than not, that individual did not have a sound moral standard to begin with. When one partakes in intercourse, there is, no doubt, no matter how many precautions you take, the risk of creating a pregnancy. If one partakes in sexual activity, it seems to me, that one should be aware of this risk (sounds like a stupid statement, but it really is not) and be prepared to deal with the circumstances if they exist. As opposed to an easy way out strategy, most people do not think of the implications of what that zygote is, or rather, they dehumanize it to be only a cluster of cells.

Now, we move to the idea of whether a zygote or a fetus is a life or alive. To be certain, the cells are never inert. For myself, I believe that it is fully alive, but only at a very specific point: at the point where the cluster of cells comes to be conscious of itself, or the point of emersion of consciousness. Now, I know there will be debate as to when this happens, but, to be certain, a fetus is aware of certain things while in the womb, and being aware means being actively present, implicating, at least for myself, that the soul has conjoined itself with the body. At this point, the soul, or the organizing principle of the body, exists in conjunction with the body, and this matter-form dichotomy is that of a human. In this way, once soul is meshed with body, it is a human life.

Thus, what it comes down to, for myself, is that, in most cases, choosing an abortion is ignoring a specific moral and ethical system, implying that “since the government says it is okay/not okay, it is okay/not okay.” If they actually looked at the being inside of themselves as a living being, or even the potentiality for a living being, they would probably be a lot more critical of the situation. Perhaps it would be better to carry the fetus to term, and then give the child up for adoption, but even that becomes hard, because there is an attachment to a real, living person, both in the mother and the father; but even then, there would not be a wasted life or potential for life.
NSUSA
Posts: 60
Joined: November 13th, 2007, 8:47 pm
Location: test

Post by NSUSA »

Abortion may be murder in the same way killing animals for food is murder or taking antibiotics to kill bacteria is murder.

The woman is not a slave to anything growing inside of her, whether it is a brainless and nerveless human embryo or a bacterial infection.
Invictus_88
Posts: 597
Joined: September 5th, 2007, 4:25 am
Contact:

Post by Invictus_88 »

NSUSA wrote:Abortion may be murder in the same way killing animals for food is murder or taking antibiotics to kill bacteria is murder.

The woman is not a slave to anything growing inside of her, whether it is a brainless and nerveless human embryo or a bacterial infection.
In the same way? Yes, indeed.

Not murder.
Hoops4me2
Posts: 10
Joined: December 18th, 2007, 3:06 pm

Post by Hoops4me2 »

I believe that abortion is the taking of a life, and thus murder. However, banning abortion is not the answer either. I don't want to go back to the clothes hanger days. The key is to stop getting pregnat in the first place, and that means education!
User avatar
strike
Posts: 27
Joined: December 15th, 2007, 2:40 pm
Location: london, Ontario

Post by strike »

Invictus_88 wrote:
NSUSA wrote:Abortion may be murder in the same way killing animals for food is murder or taking antibiotics to kill bacteria is murder.

The woman is not a slave to anything growing inside of her, whether it is a brainless and nerveless human embryo or a bacterial infection.
In the same way? Yes, indeed.

Not murder.
i agree how can a woman be slave to something inside of her, as well saying abortion is murder is like saying spermicide or a condom or birth control are murder weapons
User avatar
Samhains
Posts: 193
Joined: December 15th, 2007, 2:56 pm

Post by Samhains »

strike wrote:
Invictus_88 wrote: In the same way? Yes, indeed.

Not murder.
i agree how can a woman be slave to something inside of her, as well saying abortion is murder is like saying spermicide or a condom or birth control are murder weapons

Strike..A woman is not slave to the embro inside her..she is HOST to it and must nurture it not see it as a growth or bacteria.

Killing sperm is killing live DNA, like the egg is DNA, but both together using the spark of life generate life..like three links in a chain or a holy trinity..with out one there is no other..

there must be both mixed to spark the life..like two flint rocks, you need two to make the third..life, spark..once the egg is fertilized it is alive..no matter how small..

:arrow: have you ever seen a red spider? or a zeba jumping spider? just think how small their babys are, befor they hatch from the web nest...we see them moving inside..like we do our own babys in the mother..
Do not be fooled by the size of the embreo..for life comes in all shapes and sizes.

:idea: Remember the spark of life, the unity of deulity between the sperm and the egg, once the unity is complete, the spark of life is present.

Thus alive!
User avatar
strike
Posts: 27
Joined: December 15th, 2007, 2:40 pm
Location: london, Ontario

Post by strike »

the woman is yes a host, but does have control over there own body wether or not there is something living in her it is hers until it is born and no longer apart of her

but as long as it is apart of her and not independant the woman can choose to kill the life inside of her

a little blunt, but its the way it is, if i were female i would want the ability(to abort) if needed
User avatar
Samhains
Posts: 193
Joined: December 15th, 2007, 2:56 pm

Post by Samhains »

strike wrote:the woman is yes a host, but does have control over there own body wether or not there is something living in her it is hers until it is born and no longer apart of her

but as long as it is apart of her and not independant the woman can choose to kill the life inside of her

a little blunt, but its the way it is, if i were female i would want the ability(to abort) if needed
There is still no need to abort..you've made so sence :) you say that she has no control over her own body. To but it "blunty" as you said it -she opend her legs and got some* Period. It is a well known fact that a woman can only get pregnent on a particular week of her menstol cycle..SO she knows the times she is at risk of pregnacy..SHE chose to have sex =sex is a risk of getting pregnant..she has full control over if she has sex or not.. THUS control..if she choses to have sex she must except the enevitable concequence..of getting pregnant..aan abortion is some one who is not excepting the concequence of their actions...

A rape victum is a differnt story. But some one who CHOOSES to have sex THUS had CHOICE...
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Politics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021