Is abortion murder?

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Samhains
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Post by Samhains »

Its simple this some girl choosing to have sex and not wanting the baby it brings..you have to except the concequence of your actions, a broken condom or pill that did not work is also a risk..a low risk..but still a risk...IF you choose to have sex one must except the fact that it may leed to a baby..you can not just throw it away and say OH all I wanted was an orgazium not a baby..
Its irisponcible..its neglictful..

Choose to bang boots and these are the results...its nature..and people are all shocked when it happens..life finds a way..and you just gave it the path by banging boots..

Own up to your action, Chin up. fact the music. You shoot of a gun in someones face its going to kill them..you shoot your self off inside your girl..its going to produce life.

You know that and I know that and the people in line for the next abortion know that...they chose to have sex..its their fault their pregnent..dont kill the messanger/ or baby in this case..
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strike
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Post by strike »

as bad as it sounds its still her right, wether or not it is bad is in the eye of the beholder
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Samhains
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Post by Samhains »

strike wrote:as bad as it sounds its still her right, wether or not it is bad is in the eye of the beholder
There are things one beholds, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder...BUT Behold fire is hot and will burn you...this is simply the truth that anyone person can 'behold' or experience, a common thred if you will.

It is not that Iam saying it is 'BAD' persay, but in the sence it is "anti-creation" instead of PRO-creation, which is what the sexual organs are for, procreation, and when you stimulate them juring sex, they react acordly, ejaculation, female orgasum, cliterus moves up and down to "suck" in the sperm..its a well oiled machine:)
thus pregnant.

It is whats know as "Counter Productive"
This counter productive nature towards the procreation seem to justify the selfish needs of the host and not the life of the living baby, still unable to make CHOICE, yet still alive.

so are you not violating that unborn humans, human rights to be born -once concieved? Thus murder?

Everyone seems to be all about the mother, because she is alive to make a choice, but the baby is alive too...and can not voice its opinion..

But we all know what it would say.

I highly recommend any mother who is thinking of an abortion to look down at your belly and ask the child if it wants to be aborted, does it want the claw of death in mommy to mash it up small enough to fit into the suction tube? cause that what they do...they mash the baby up inside of you first...then suck out its pulpy cuncks of bone, brain, and flesh out..after you'll need a DNC -"Deep Nookie Clean -CLINICAL DOUCH-..

The chunks of baby flow freely all the way down this little 1/2 inch tube..and did you know, they will abort a baby up to three months old...
its kinda like a baby shake.
Bottoms up!
or should I say, legs in the sturips

OH I wonder if they'd let you take that home in a jar, like they do with your apendics or tonsels..or a baby tooth...how cute, my first abortion.

Here's a 3 month old- just befor the abortion:
You can see eyes, ears, hands, feet, a head, so there for a brain..even a spleen..

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anarchyisbliss
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Post by anarchyisbliss »

no doubt about the fact that abortion is murder, a sperm is a living creature an ovum is a living creature and a zygote and an embryo are living conscious beings with souls

be that as it may a woman still has the right to kill her child if she knows that she cannot provide for him or her or if allowing the child to live would cause more harm than good.

And why do religious people get so worked up saying " boo hoo hoo the poor little baby will never get the chance to live wah wah wah " Wont its soul just go straight to heaven or purgatory so whats the big issue if a mother spares her child's soul from the horror of planet Earth
anarchyisbliss
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Post by anarchyisbliss »

Samhains wrote:Its simple this some girl choosing to have sex and not wanting the baby it brings..you have to except the concequence of your actions, a broken condom or pill that did not work is also a risk..a low risk..but still a risk...IF you choose to have sex one must except the fact that it may leed to a baby..you can not just throw it away and say OH all I wanted was an orgazium not a baby..
Its irisponcible..its neglictful..

Choose to bang boots and these are the results...its nature..and people are all shocked when it happens..life finds a way..and you just gave it the path by banging boots..

Own up to your action, Chin up. fact the music. You shoot of a gun in someones face its going to kill them..you shoot your self off inside your girl..its going to produce life.

You know that and I know that and the people in line for the next abortion know that...they chose to have sex..its their fault their pregnent..dont kill the messanger/ or baby in this case..
you might want to learn how to spell before you start your argument, not being mean but people will take you more seriously if your grammar is flawless
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Samhains
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Post by Samhains »

anarchyisbliss wrote:no doubt about the fact that abortion is murder, a sperm is a living creature an ovum is a living creature and a zygote and an embryo are living conscious beings with souls.

be that as it may a woman still has the right to kill her child if she knows that she cannot provide for him or her or if allowing the child to live would cause more harm than good.

And why do religious people get so worked up saying " boo hoo hoo the poor little baby will never get the chance to live wah wah wah " Wont its soul just go straight to heaven or purgatory so whats the big issue if a mother spares her child's soul from the horror of planet Earth

No one has the right to murder anything if you see the embreo as a living entity as you said above, then who has the right to kill a living, sentient being?


Once a division of the Japanese army was engaged in a sham battle, and some of the officers found it necessary to make their headquarters in Gasan's temple.

Gasan told his cook: "Let the officers have only the same simple fare we eat."

This made the army men angry, as they were used to very deferential treatment. One came to Gasan and said: "Who do you think we are? We are soldiers, sacrificing our lives for our country. Why don't you treat us accordingly?"

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anarchyisbliss
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Post by anarchyisbliss »

Samhains wrote:
anarchyisbliss wrote:
No one has the right to murder anything if you see the embreo as a living entity as you said above, then who has the right to kill a living, sentient being?


http://groups.msn.com/ThePritanihouseOfMagick
Anyone has the right to murder a sentient being, you only believe that no one has the right becasue you live in a country whose morality says it is wrong you have yet to form your own opinion and if you have you have yet to express it well enough to convince me
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Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
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Post by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes »

If you haven't already, check out the article I wrote about defining murder in regards to controversial issues like abortion: Philosophical Exploration of Murder, The Right to Life, and Abortion

In it I pose a serious of questions one would have to ask themselves to come to a philosophical view of murder that is consistent among various controversial issues from abortion to eating animals.

Also, I found a quote by Ayn Rand in which she argues against those people who claim abortion is murder and call themselves pro-life:
Ayn Rand wrote:I cannot project the degree of hatred required to make those women run around in crusades against abortion. Hatred is what they certainly project, not love for the embryos, which is a piece of nonsense no one could experience, but hatred, a virulent hatred for an unnamed object...Their hatred is directed against human beings as such, against the mind, against reason, against ambition, against success, against love, against any value that brings happiness to human life. In compliance with the dishonesty that dominates today's intellectual field, they call themselves 'pro-life.'
What do you think?
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ape
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Post by ape »

Scott wrote: Also, I found a quote by Ayn Rand in which she argues against those people who claim abortion is murder and call themselves pro-life:
Awesome quote, Scott!
Which proves what it is that makes any killing murder, and what makes us guilty of murder even when we do no killing at all! And of course, what it is that makes a mercy-killing out of any killing.
Ayn Rand wrote:I cannot project the degree of Hatred required to make those women run around in crusades against abortion. Hatred is what they certainly project, not Love for the embryos, which is a piece of nonsense no one could experience, but Hatred, a virulent Hatred for an unnamed object...
Their Hatred is directed against human beings as such, against the mind, against reason, against ambition, against success, against Love, against any value that brings happiness to human life.
In compliance with the dishonesty that dominates today's intellectual field, they call themselves 'pro-life.'
That Hatred, of course, also makes those who are pro-life and anti-death when it comes to Capital Punishment also guilty of murder as in Malice-afore-thought.:idea:
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whitetrshsoldier
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Post by whitetrshsoldier »

I don't quite understand how Rand's point is valid here. Is she saying that a fertilized embryo isn't a distinct entity, genetically independent of the mother who's carrying it?

I doubt she had the luxury of consulting the science that we have now, but in reality it doesn't matter. Abortion is the destruction of an embryo, which is a developing human body; a human being that is genetically unique [albeit simliar] to the mother carrying it.

Call that destruction whatever you want. You may not like the term "murder", but you are effectively destroying a "living" thing [as it is cellularly reproducing, even the second after it's fertilized].

Destroying a living thing [like a plant] doesn't have to be called "murder", but it is "killing", isn't it?
The Dictionary wrote:kill /kɪl/ –verb
1. to deprive of life in any manner; cause the death of; slay.
2. to destroy; do away with; extinguish:
P.S. I don't really care if women take a hangar to themselves. I'm just making an argument here.
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Homicidal Pacifist
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Post by Homicidal Pacifist »

"Is abortion murder?"

Murder is the illegal killing of a human.

Therefore, if it is legal, it is not murder.

But it does remain an act of killing.

Is a fetus a human in its early stages of development? Or is it only human when it develops... a heartbeat, a brain, sensory capabilities, toes, a sense of humor, etc.?

Fetus - An unborn vertebrate at a stage when all the structural features of the adult are recognizable, especially an unborn human offspring after 8 weeks of development.

What about week 1? Is it human or human in early development or something else? And is it killing? And is it ok to kill it or end its progression?

Killing of humans becomes illegal when it ends life unfairly and strips rights from who ought to have rights. My belief is that it is morally wrong and should be illegal to kill ANY human being for ANY reason... even when it is at its weakest and most vulnerable stage.

No matter what reasons can be provided to support abortion, the fact remains that the child did nothing wrong and did not deserve to have its natural rights to safety ended by our hands, suction tubes, or back-alley coat-hangers.

And as far as concern for the quality of life for the child, mental retardation, inbreeding and the like, even The Elephant Man found life worth living. (I'm actually not too familiar with that story so for the sake of my argument I hope he didn't kill himself.)

I mean no offense with all of this and I am big on equal rights for women (and various ethnicities, sexual preferrences, religouns, etc.). I just think that equal rights should apply to the unborn as well.
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TheHonestOne
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by TheHonestOne »

In my eyes abortion is murder. Just because someone doesn't want to keep their baby or maybe they are unable to take care of it, it does not mean that they need to have an abortion. They could always give the baby up for adoption. If we say that abortion is not murder because the baby is only a fetus in the early stages, then we can call ourselves vegetarians for eating veal because it is only the baby cow. Right?
Harbal
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Harbal »

"Murder" is a legal category. If the law says it's murder, then it is. If the law says it's not, then it isn't.
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Ami
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Ami »

I would fit into the anti-abortion pro-life camp, none-the-less, it came up for me to type a few words about your '09 post.
Homicidal Pacifist wrote:Killing of humans becomes illegal when it ends life unfairly and strips rights from who ought to have rights.
Rights tends to mean: I have powerful friends that can enforce what I want to do or what I don't want you to do. Personally I'd avoid rights discourse.
My belief is that it is morally wrong and should be illegal to kill ANY human being for ANY reason... even when it is at its weakest and most vulnerable stage.
Right/wrong language is a projection and disowning of our emotions; it's an attempt to set up an extrinsic order as if it pre-existed, it's a form of psychological violence.
No matter what reasons can be provided to support abortion, the fact remains that the child did nothing wrong and did not deserve to have its natural rights to safety ended by our hands, suction tubes, or back-alley coat-hangers.
Death is not a punishment. Ego fears death because it believes death is something it deserves as punishment for its sins. It's ok to die, it's not a fault or a weakness.

In "Non-Violent Communication" we might say it like this:

Observation: When I hear about abortion,

Feeling: I feel concerned and alarmed,

Need: Because I have a need for care, fairness, and celebration of life,

Request: Would you be willing to stop advancing the abortionist agenda/reconsider having an abortion/performing abortions etc.
Fun enjoyable days.
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Thinking critical »

TheHonestOne wrote: If we say that abortion is not murder because the baby is only a fetus in the early stages, then we can call ourselves vegetarians for eating veal because it is only the baby cow. Right?
That's a false comparison, calves are still made of meat, an embryo is not a Human being, it's the potential for a human being, nothing more than cells and membrane. We already know that there is no pain or suffering caused to the foetus during the abortion, it is not a human being and therefore not murder.

If pro-life advocates are fighting for the rights of potential life, then they must also condemn condoms, masturbation or any form of male ejaculation that doesn't fertilise the female egg, technically even denying someone from having sex is preventing potential life, where does the line get drawn?

Why deny the rights of one living human being for the potential life of another? What has it got to do with anyone but the one who is pregnant?
This cocky little cognitive contortionist will straighten you right out
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