Is abortion murder?

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Misty
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Misty »

Londoner wrote:The cortex etc. will potentially develop, but that is not the same as being there now, just as the fact that I may grow into an old man does not mean I am an old man now. We do not usually treat unrealised futures as things which exist now.

After all, there is also an extremely strong possibility that sooner or later we will all die! Does it follow that this means we are as good as dead now, so it doesn't matter if somebody kills us?
Hello Londoner,

It is there, in the embryo developing from what is in the egg and of course the nourishment from its host mother.

I do not understand your reasoning in the second sentence.

Misty
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Spiral Out
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Re: Is abortion murder?

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Londoner wrote:The cortex etc. will potentially develop, but that is not the same as being there now, just as the fact that I may grow into an old man does not mean I am an old man now. We do not usually treat unrealised futures as things which exist now.

After all, there is also an extremely strong possibility that sooner or later we will all die! Does it follow that this means we are as good as dead now, so it doesn't matter if somebody kills us?
These are indeed very good points, Londoner.

We as Humans absolutely do, for better or worse, consider the potential of things in our decisions and judgments. I think pro-lifers see everything as potential, which in itself isn't necessarily flawed, but they treat the potential as being something actual, which is not an accurate assessment of potential.
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Misty
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Misty »

Spiral Out wrote:We as Humans absolutely do, for better or worse, consider the potential of things in our decisions and judgments. I think pro-lifers see everything as potential, which in itself isn't necessarily flawed, but they treat the potential as being something actual, which is not an accurate assessment of potential.
Do you have a mortgage? If you stop paying it you will not experience owning your home. Potential needs to be considered especially when it is about a human life. Are you pro-life? I am, but I also understand there are sometimes circumstances that may need an alternate decision. It should be rare rather than an uncaring rule.

-- Updated Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:41 pm to add the following --
Noob019 wrote:Killing that 1 sperm that will fertilize the egg is like killing the embryo. When it has the potential to grow even more be it embryo or sperm you are killing a potential human life. So i think if abortion is bad (which I don't think it is) then using condoms is equally bad.

If your very young daughter was being raped, would you prefer the rapist wear a condom or not? Or if she thought she was in love with another teen and they made love, would you rather they prevent a child with a condom or have a child neither can support? The sperm and egg on its own is designed to die unless there is union.
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Londoner
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Londoner »

It is there, in the embryo developing from what is in the egg and of course the nourishment from its host mother.
An acorn is not an oak tree, nor does it contain an oak tree. It may become an oak tree later, but it isn't an oak tree now. This is because oak trees have a trunk and leaves and can photosynthesise. An acorn does not have any of these things.

Similarly, the cells in an embryo may be in the process of becoming a developed human but until they can perform the same functions that we associate with being a developed human they are not yet human.

The same thing happens at the end of life. After a human can no longer perform certain functions we say they are no longer human i.e. they are dead.
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Re: Is abortion murder?

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Misty wrote:Do you have a mortgage? If you stop paying it you will not experience owning your home.
Should I not go to work because of the potential that I could be electrocuted and die? What if I lose control of my car from a tire blowout and kill a family of five? Should I never drive again? Potential is everywhere, but you cannot act on potential alone.
Misty wrote:Potential needs to be considered especially when it is about a human life.
I'll have to assume that you don't find such potential in a simple sperm or an egg, so when does such potential begin? Please explain why that potential only begins when you think it does, and why it doesn't exist before that point.
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Noob019
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Re: Is abortion murder?

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Misty wrote: If your very young daughter was being raped, would you prefer the rapist wear a condom or not? Or if she thought she was in love with another teen and they made love, would you rather they prevent a child with a condom or have a child neither can support? The sperm and egg on its own is designed to die unless there is union.

How is that any different from abortion? Let's say my teen daughter had sex without condoms became pregnant and did not yet kill the potential human life. How is more bad or good if she kills it after it becomes an embrio? Doesn't she deserve a second change because abortion is somehow more evil than condoms?
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Re: Is abortion murder?

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Spiral Out wrote:Should I not go to work because of the potential that I could be electrocuted and die? What if I lose control of my car from a tire blowout and kill a family of five? Should I never drive again? Potential is everywhere, but you cannot act on potential alone.

I'll have to assume that you don't find such potential in a simple sperm or an egg, so when does such potential begin? Please explain why that potential only begins when you think it does, and why it doesn't exist before that point.

No one said anyone should act on potential alone, but it should be considered.

Am I not entitled to an opinion Spiral? I am willing to listen to what you believe.

-- Updated Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:59 pm to add the following --
Noob019 wrote:How is that any different from abortion? Let's say my teen daughter had sex without condoms became pregnant and did not yet kill the potential human life. How is more bad or good if she kills it after it becomes an embrio? Doesn't she deserve a second change because abortion is somehow more evil than condoms?
Hello Noob019,

I have already given you my opinion. A sperm or egg alone is not developing into its human form, but an embryo is. I would not make a decision for you or anyone else, I was just asking you what you think. But for me, the embryo is already a unique living human in progress, a sperm or egg alone is not.

Misty
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Spiral Out
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Re: Is abortion murder?

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Misty wrote:No one said anyone should act on potential alone, but it should be considered.
So then you're pro-life until the potential is considered and then you become pro-choice? Isn't it the position of pro-lifers to act (not abort) on the mere potential of life?
Misty wrote:Am I not entitled to an opinion Spiral? I am willing to listen to what you believe.
Of course you're entitled to an opinion. I'm just asking for the particulars of that opinion. It's one thing to have an opinion, it's another thing to have an opinion you can explain. Opinions without reasons are meaningless.
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Misty
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Re: Is abortion murder?

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Londoner wrote:An acorn is not an oak tree, nor does it contain an oak tree. It may become an oak tree later, but it isn't an oak tree now. This is because oak trees have a trunk and leaves and can photosynthesise. An acorn does not have any of these things.

Similarly, the cells in an embryo may be in the process of becoming a developed human but until they can perform the same functions that we associate with being a developed human they are not yet human.

The same thing happens at the end of life. After a human can no longer perform certain functions we say they are no longer human i.e. they are dead.
I believe a human who dies is still human, just a dead one.

At what point in a pregnancy would you consider abortion to be OK?

-- Updated Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:26 pm to add the following --
Spiral Out wrote:So then you're pro-life until the potential is considered and then you become pro-choice? Isn't it the position of pro-lifers to act (not abort) on the mere potential of life?


I really don't know how you got this from any of my posts. I have never gone to a pro-life meeting so I do not know what their position is.

You sure like to label people. Not my thing.
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Spiral Out
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Re: Is abortion murder?

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Misty said, "Are you pro-life? I am" so you in fact labelled yourself. And if you're pro-life then how can you not know what the pro-life position is?

I suppose you won't be answering any of my previous questions then?
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Misty
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Re: Is abortion murder?

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[quote="Spiral Out"]Misty said, "Are you pro-life? I am" so you in fact labelled yourself. And if you're pro-life then how can you not know what the pro-life position is?

Spiral Out,

You are correct, I did say I am pro life, but I did not mean it in the sense of being involved with the movement. I probably should not have used 'pro-life' as others would not know I have never been involved with it. I believe human life should be spared if at all possible. However, I also understand there are situations that some people have to deal with that may not be able to honor that view.

I will answer any question you want to ask me if I can. What are your questions?

Misty
Last edited by Misty on July 30th, 2013, 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.

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Spiral Out
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Re: Is abortion murder?

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Good, then at what point does the potential for life that you speak of emerge into existence? And when is this potential realized and become actual?
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Misty
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Misty »

Spiral Out wrote:Good, then at what point does the potential for life that you speak of emerge into existence? And when is this potential realized and become actual?
Spiral,

When the sperm and egg unite, as I have already answered. I believe an embryo is the developing human and exists unless interrupted for whatever reason. Spiral, a newborn is potentially a one year old, etc., until one dies at whatever age it eventually dies. Human life from conception until death is moment by moment actuality and existence.

Misty

p.s. I like your scorpion avatar.
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Thinking critical »

Abortion is a messy subject, although I'm not against it, I wouldn't say I'm all for it. The fact that we show empathy towards potential humans shows just how much humanity appreciates and values life (well some of us anyway). Personally I feel it all boils down to pain and suffering, Embryo's don't feel pain yet the potential mother may suffer consequences as a result of carrying through with the birth.
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Londoner
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Londoner »

Misty

I believe a human who dies is still human, just a dead one.
Indeed?

Therefore we shouldn't burn or bury dead people - because we would not do those things to a live human?

I think you are something of an extremist in the abortion debate! A 'right to life' isn't usually extended to the dead!
At what point in a pregnancy would you consider abortion to be OK?
Any point before it has developed those functions that we associate with being a live human. Just as I consider cremation to be OK for people who have ceased to perform those functions that we associate with being a live human.

I willingly accept that the exact point is open to debate, but I think it is clear that a single undifferentiated cell (the fertilised egg) is not yet a live human, because it does not have the same attributes as live humans.
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