Is abortion murder?

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Dachshund
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Dachshund » May 25th, 2018, 9:13 am

Abortion is an ugly word, Jan. It leaves a bad taste in the mouth, just whispering to oneself, right? After 1973 when abortion on demand was legalised in the US in the landmark Roe vs Wade legal case, something like 600 million abortions have been carried out in America to date, today in the US the Abortion industry is a multi-billion dollar business. The Natural Law argues that all reasonable human beings knows DEEP DOWN in their hearts that this is terribly wrong. That all men and women know DEEP DOWN that this is a very bad, wicked thing that is taking place.

Can you SINCERELY tell me, Jan that you feel NOTHING in your heart, no sense of sorrow or sadness, no sense of the tragic, no sense of that which is dark and wicked in America's abortion industry?

This is the test The Natural Law theorist would have you to apply in order to discern the truth of the matter.

Dachshund

Jan Sand
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Jan Sand » May 25th, 2018, 9:33 am

Count me as being unreasonable. Abortion has been a regular action throughout history amongst all animals and that's just what we animals are. Since you clearly are a dachshund I'm surprised you don't know that. If you are so upset by the abortion trade which is entirely a voluntary action I wonder how you feel about the much more profitable arms industries who kill immensely more people who most certainly don't volunteer to be victims. All that ire and energy could be far more useful directed at drones and machine guns and cops shooting people waving cell phones at them.

Dachshund
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Dachshund » May 25th, 2018, 9:38 am

So, you are saying that you are not emotionally affected in any negative way by the American abortion industry? For you it has no moral significance and we might just as well be taking about the American waste disposal industry that clears and disposes of the rubbish on the streets? Is that what you are saying ?

Dachshund

Dachshund
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Dachshund » May 25th, 2018, 9:43 am

Animals do not set up surgical abortion clinics nor do they administer abortifacient drugs to their pregnant females, and they certainly not use abortion as a convenient means of birth control, do they ? Abortion, when it occurs in animals is a natural process that occurs for natural reasons. Animals do not consciously plan to carry out abortions, Jan.

Dachshund

Dachshund
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Dachshund » May 25th, 2018, 9:45 am

Animals do not set up surgical abortion clinics nor do they administer abortifacient drugs to their pregnant females, and they certainly not use abortion as a convenient means of birth control, do they ? Abortion, when it occurs in animals is a natural process that occurs for natural reasons. Animals do not consciously plan to carry out abortions, Jan.

Dachshund

Jan Sand
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Jan Sand » May 25th, 2018, 9:51 am

If you don't think you're an animal, you must be a plant or a mineral . Why would a rose bush or a cucumber consider itself a dachshund?

Dachshund
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Dachshund » May 25th, 2018, 9:58 am

Please answer the question I put to you. When you consult your heart, do you SINCERELY feel nothing, no sense of negative emotional affection when I tell you that the legalisation of abortion has resulted in 600 million pregnant women having medical abortions in the US?

Dachshund

Dachshund
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Dachshund » May 25th, 2018, 10:01 am

You are being evasive, Jan. Give me a straight honest answer. NO BS please.

Jan Sand
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Jan Sand » May 25th, 2018, 10:12 am

Since the population of the USA is about 324 million and perhaps around half of that may be women it seems you are not really honest on your dislike of not telling the truth unless about a million US women simultaneously had quintuplets that were aborted. I have no idea what you might be wanting to sell but I can only consider you comments to be spam from here on out.

Dachshund
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Dachshund » May 25th, 2018, 10:21 am

Dialogue terminated.

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Greta
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Greta » May 26th, 2018, 3:55 am

Murder is murder.
Abortion is abortion, not murder.
Hunting is hunting, not murder.
Slaughtering is slaughtering, not murder.
Death sentences are death sentences, not murder.
Using disinfectants is simply using disinfectants, not murder of microbes.
Clearing land is clearing land, not murder of ecosystems and their inhabitants.
Killing in war is war, not murder.
Refusal of welfare and heath services is refusal of welfare and health, not murder.

All of these things kill in great numbers but only murder as logically defined by law is actual murder, obviously. Death and destruction are part of life. We kill each other, either by decision, neglect or participation in a system that kills all the time, every day, day after day. Not everyone can be saved. Life is brutal and it always has been. Be grateful that you slipped through the net and try to be kind to those who might depend on your mercy.

Jan Sand
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Jan Sand » May 26th, 2018, 4:21 am

Greta wrote:
May 26th, 2018, 3:55 am
Murder is murder.
Abortion is abortion, not murder.
Hunting is hunting, not murder.
Slaughtering is slaughtering, not murder.
Death sentences are death sentences, not murder.
Using disinfectants is simply using disinfectants, not murder of microbes.
Clearing land is clearing land, not murder of ecosystems and their inhabitants.
Killing in war is war, not murder.
Refusal of welfare and heath services is refusal of welfare and health, not murder.

All of these things kill in great numbers but only murder as logically defined by law is actual murder, obviously. Death and destruction are part of life. We kill each other, either by decision, neglect or participation in a system that kills all the time, every day, day after day. Not everyone can be saved. Life is brutal and it always has been. Be grateful that you slipped through the net and try to be kind to those who might depend on your mercy.
Murder, of course, is just a word, and where and how it is applied has a strong emotional component. When I swat a mosquito who is just interested in a quick snack I consider myself a murderer as I find the morality of humans far less appealing than that of mosquitoes who have not a bit of the evil intentions of much of humanity. I can spare an occasional drop of blood for a mosquito who has been duly certified by the health department as free of infectious diseases, They, in turn, must agree to feed a delightful bat in need. That's the contract we each sign before being born. Unborn babies must take their chances as we all do and if they try to sneak into this universe where the family is too poor to sustain them or otherwise have not the intent nor means to give them a good sendoff, they have to accept the consequences.

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LuckyR
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by LuckyR » May 28th, 2018, 3:01 am

Dachshund wrote:
May 25th, 2018, 7:05 am
LuckyR wrote:
May 19th, 2018, 2:12 am
The attitude of the so called pro-life individuals towards contraception is the giveaway. If the issue was saving fetuses then those guys would be the number one proponents of birth control to make abortion unnecessary. Yet they aren't. No, it's really about fighting maternal autonomy, not saving babies.
Tell me LuckyR, are you familiar with the basic theoretical tenets of The Natural Law ( the notion of The Natural MORAL Law,I mean) as it was expounded by ancient philosophers like Cicero,Seneca and the Roman jurisconsults, for example, and as it was utilised in the context English Common Law jurisprudence?

Regards


Dachshund
No I am not. Are you familiar with the trend towards improvement in essentially every field over time as pertains to issues associated with physical or intellectual input?
"As usual... it depends."

Jan Sand
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Jan Sand » May 28th, 2018, 3:28 am

As comparisons of moral evolution are concerned what does the ancient moral law say about slavery, the rights of women, The marriage relationship, the systems of democratic rule, the responsibility of a society for public education, health care, care for the disabled, the treatment of animals, the regard for the environment, and other modern viewpoints as to racial and cultural and religious beliefs or lack thereof?

Dachshund
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Dachshund » May 28th, 2018, 5:02 am

LuckyR,

The Enlightenment era - the age of reason - was grounded on the notion of improvement. The faith of the Enlightenment was that man could use his capacity reason to illuminate the darkness of ignorance and liberate himself from the irrational "mind - forged manacles"of superstition and religious dogma. The quintessential spirit of the Enlightenment was the spirit of CHANGE, a belief in the perpetual need for progressive change; a conviction that the "status quo" and all it represented of the accumulated wisdom and knowledge of the past was never good enough - that the existing state of affairs in any human State could and should always be improved . Kant's famous exhortation to humanity "Sapere aude !!" , that is, dare to think for yourself, dare to know by yourself, dare to be wise, dare to trust that your human reason, can BY ITSELF, ALONE AND UNGUIDED by any kind external knowledge (like that, for example, of the reveal supernatural knowledge of Christian faith), has an unlimited potential. Dare be bold in believing that human rationality has the innate capacity to conceive of, and then implement, the kind of innovations and progressive changes that will advance the State ( i.e. human society) ever closer in the future towards an ideal utopia - towards a veritable paradise of perfect peace, complete happiness and pure moral goodness on Earth.

Guess what the Enlightenment faith gave us LuckyR ? Guess what man's arrogant assumption that he was clever enough by himself to bring about ever more happiness, peace, goodness, justice...etc on Earth ended up resulting in ? Guess what the Enlightenment mantra of CHANGE, CHANGE, CHANGE, PROGRESS, PROGRESS, PROGRESS gave Western civilization in the modern era? I'll tell you... It gave us: tyranny, violent global conflict, mass murder/genocide, an intensity and depth of human suffering and misery, a destruction and devastation of the natural environment, all of a scale so monumental, all of a kind so nightmarish and terrible that the mind reels in attempting to grasp the reality of the collective disasters. Disasters - in the relatively brief ( historically speaking ) period of time since the birth of the Enlightenment in the 17th century (with the work of Hobbes, Descartes, Bacon and Spinoza) to date, of a nature absolutely unprecedented in 6000 years of human history : the Great War of 1914-1918, the rise of German National Socialism under Hitler and the Second World War, the holocaust, Hiroshima/Nagasaki, the insane totalitarian ideologies that spawned the evil empires of Mao and Stalin, the Cold War, late neoliberal techno-corporate capitalism, global warming, the domination and enslavement of Western man's consciousness by a soul-destroying, nihilistic, amoral instrumental technological rationality, and the list of horrors goes ON AND ON AND ON AND ON

The Enlightenment project and the philosophy progressive Liberalism it unleashed on Western modernity with the French Revolution FAILED BIG TIME. Do you geddit LuckyR ? Or do I need to start drawing pictures for you ?

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