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Why the Nazis actually won...

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Skakos
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Why the Nazis actually won...

Post by Skakos » June 17th, 2013, 12:47 pm

We consider WWII as an event which resulted to the defeat of the bad, evil Nazis. Yes! We - the FREE and CIVILIZED world won the evil guys with the Hugo Boss uniforms! (yes, they were designed by Hugo)

But is it really this true? I think not. Let's consider how things went on after the war...

1. Communism was finally crashed into oblivion (the MAIN political goal of Hitler - he always considered communists his greatest enemies and that is why he was so reluctant to attack UK and he even tried to offer them a truce!)

2. Modern space program continued based on V2 missiles and we finally got to the moon with the lead NAZI scientist leading NASA.

3. Medicine followed the example of Mengele to the full extent: We are every day bombared with news about how genes control our behaviour, how genes are responsible for who we are, how genes can change, how the genome can be manipulated et cetera. The experiments of Mengele were not an exception in the scientific community. Mengele was one of the many, working as an assistant professor at the famed Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Genetics. After WWII no one from this Institute was accused for anything... wrong (!!!) and the scientific academia did not find anything "weird" about these experiments. You may know the insitute in its current name: Max Planck. [dw.de/skeletons-in-the-closet-of-german ... -1587766-1] The dream of the Nazis for creating the new Arian race is going on. We are the heirs of that plan.

Every time I consider WWII I think about all the above. And I realize that WWII was like the case of Romans and ancient Greeks: Romans conquered the Greeks, only to be conquered back by their civilization. But in this case the West is not conquered by any "civilization" but by the terror of inhumanity...

Your thoughts?

DISCLAIMER: I am against the Nazis. Just a note for those who will read fast through the post...
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Re: Why the Nazis actually won...

Post by Harbal » June 17th, 2013, 1:19 pm

The concentration camps and gas chambers are conspicuous by their absence.

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Re: Why the Nazis actually won...

Post by Kepler1571 » June 17th, 2013, 2:56 pm

The Nazis wanted to depopulate Eastern Europe of most non-Germans, reduce the rest to slaves, and repopulate it with Germans, to create an racially pure German superstate from the Rhine to the Caspian. It was an explicitly racial project. They failed completely; they lost.

Had they "won" in any sense of the word, all of these contemporary states would be majority German and dominated by a centralized fascist German state: Germany, Austria, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Belarus, Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Georgia, all of Russia east of Moscow. Even by the greatest stretch of imagination, only Germany and Austria fit the Nazi ethnic goal, and even they are liberal democratic states.

The Nazis failed spectacularly. There is really no historical precedent for such complete ineptitude.

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Re: Why the Nazis actually won...

Post by Skakos » June 17th, 2013, 3:24 pm

Kepler1571 wrote:The Nazis wanted to depopulate Eastern Europe of most non-Germans, reduce the rest to slaves, and repopulate it with Germans, to create an racially pure German superstate from the Rhine to the Caspian. It was an explicitly racial project. They failed completely; they lost.

Had they "won" in any sense of the word, all of these contemporary states would be majority German and dominated by a centralized fascist German state: Germany, Austria, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Belarus, Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Georgia, all of Russia east of Moscow. Even by the greatest stretch of imagination, only Germany and Austria fit the Nazi ethnic goal, and even they are liberal democratic states.

The Nazis failed spectacularly. There is really no historical precedent for such complete ineptitude.
I am afraid I will not agree with you. After the Nazis killed every Jew, Gupsy or homosexual, they would start killing other "inferior" people. And many of the people (Jews, homosexuals, communists etc) they killed were Germans. They wanted to create the perfect person. Their criteria were genetic, not based on nationality.

What they did then, we do now. (see tests for Down's Syndrome)
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Re: Why the Nazis actually won...

Post by Someguy1 » June 17th, 2013, 4:50 pm

I always like to joke that it's a good thing Japan didn't win WWII, otherwise we'd all be driving Toyotas and eating sushi.

But maybe that's just a regional joke. In the hip, liberal area where I used to live, everyone drives Toyotas and eats sushi.

But actually, we are turning into the Soviet Union. The huge, corrupt, incompetent bureaucracy. The surveillance state. All the talk about "the people" when the entire system is rigged for the benefit of the elite.

You become what you oppose. The US is becoming the USSR. And will eventually encounter the same fate. It will take decades, though.

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Re: Why the Nazis actually won...

Post by Skakos » June 18th, 2013, 5:09 am

Someguy1 wrote:I always like to joke that it's a good thing Japan didn't win WWII, otherwise we'd all be driving Toyotas and eating sushi.

But maybe that's just a regional joke. In the hip, liberal area where I used to live, everyone drives Toyotas and eats sushi.

But actually, we are turning into the Soviet Union. The huge, corrupt, incompetent bureaucracy. The surveillance state. All the talk about "the people" when the entire system is rigged for the benefit of the elite.

You become what you oppose. The US is becoming the USSR. And will eventually encounter the same fate. It will take decades, though.
Good one.
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Re: Why the Nazis actually won...

Post by Geordie Ross » June 18th, 2013, 6:46 am

1. Communism arguably defeated itself

2. The Germans built their v2 rockets on the designs from earlier British and american designs that used two stage liquid fuel, admittedly, the Germans advanced on that.

3. Hereditary genetics wasn't a new field in the 1940's.

The German scientists did make many contributions to science, as war advances technology, necessity is the mother of invention and all that. However, to say the "won" because of their scientific achievements would be totally disregarding the near extinction of their political ideology, and after all, that's the whole point of war.
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Re: Why the Nazis actually won...

Post by Theophane » June 18th, 2013, 1:39 pm

The Nazis "won" because nothing can change how they shaped history. They did irreparable damage to the rest of humanity, and that damage is still unfolding today with modern Neo Nazi movements. Ideas are bulletproof. (Unfortunately, in this case.)

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Re: Why the Nazis actually won...

Post by Skakos » June 19th, 2013, 5:04 am

Theophane wrote:The Nazis "won" because nothing can change how they shaped history. They did irreparable damage to the rest of humanity, and that damage is still unfolding today with modern Neo Nazi movements. Ideas are bulletproof. (Unfortunately, in this case.)
Indeed. The Nazis brought at the surface things we had hidden for a long time deep into our selves...
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Re: Why the Nazis actually won...

Post by Keithprosser3 » June 19th, 2013, 11:54 am

I always like to joke that it's a good thing Japan didn't win WWII, otherwise we'd all be driving Toyotas and eating sushi.
Who wins a war changes matters a lot to rulers, very little to the ruled. The same can be said of revolutions, gaining independence etc.

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Re: Why the Nazis actually won...

Post by Kepler1571 » June 21st, 2013, 3:38 pm

Theophane wrote:The Nazis "won" because nothing can change how they shaped history. They did irreparable damage to the rest of humanity, and that damage is still unfolding today with modern Neo Nazi movements. Ideas are bulletproof. (Unfortunately, in this case.)
Well, I guess it's true that once thought an idea cannot be unthought. In this sense the women's movement, for example, has "won." There is no erasing the idea that women are fundamentally equal to men from history, even if it dips below the horizon of practice for a while.

But the Nazi ideal wasn't just to bring to light some philosophical ideal. And given that their ideas are now regarded with utter horror, they lost worse than any other set of ideas that have ever been. Even Divine Right Monarchy has a better reputation, and that's a couple crazy guys in Liechtenstein.

There were three great materialist movements unleashed on the world by the industrial revolution and its errant application to human biology: communism, fascism, and Social Darwinist capitalism. The first two are dead and buried, the third will be within a generation. The world has moved on. The forms economic and social systems will take in this century won't have any more to do with the political systems of the 20th century than those of the 12th century.

It's a new world, and the people doing all the talking are just bickering over obsolete ideas.

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Re: Why the Nazis actually won...

Post by Theophane » June 21st, 2013, 4:18 pm

A truly obsolete idea would not be bickered over, would it?

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Re: Why the Nazis actually won...

Post by Geordie Ross » June 21st, 2013, 4:25 pm

I agree Kepler, well said. However I disagree that this is a new world, I think its the end of an old one, as you say, Nazism and communism have been banished to dark corners, and rouge states, as for "Social Darwinist capitalism", I'm not sure what that entails? Can you expand?
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Re: Why the Nazis actually won...

Post by Kepler1571 » June 21st, 2013, 7:22 pm

Theophane wrote:A truly obsolete idea would not be bickered over, would it?
You seem to enjoy delivering these "gotcha" remarks for whatever reason, but they don't work. Obsolescence is not the same thing as eradication. There will always be cul de sacs like Creationism that are "last stands" for refuted ideas, but that does not mean those ideas are alive anymore.

The "people who are doing all the talking" are the political theorists quoted on TV as punditry for left or right. Those people are by definition dead tree rings -- they can only encapsulate ideas easily because there is already significant historical and intellectual distance from them. The people who are actually creating the next social and economic order aren't doing Morning TV about it. They're actually doing it.

So yeah, there will always be people pledging allegiance to Hitler, Lenin, or Murray Rothbard, but ideas still need a fertile soil to take root in, and the environment that led to those ideologies has been washed away.

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Re: Why the Nazis actually won...

Post by The Quirkster » June 21st, 2013, 11:19 pm

Did the Nazis win?

Well, their broad goal was global domination, and nourished by the furious and strangely magnetic power that Hitler held over the masses, which he systematically enforced in a totalitarian regime, with the brutality and fear of government agencies who weeded out not only ethnic groups, but any perceived dissenting individual/s.

If one takes this broad view into context, then human history provides many examples of brutal, violent and inhumane states that have sought military and social dominion over all that stood before them. The Spartans, the Mongols and the Ma cedonians are just a few examples.

One of the factors that has seen Nazi-Germany differentiate itself from others was the cold, clinical and ruthless manner with which they planned, undertook, and strove to solve the "The Jewish Problem". The movie, Conspiracy, with Kenneth Branagh, Stanley Tucci and Colin Firth, based on actual historical documents from the minutes of the meeting, is disturbing in its re-enactment of what took place at that meeting. The cold-blooded and horrifying discussion of the most cost-effective, efficient and fastest method to eliminate the Jewish people, as if a company board meeting was to discuss a corporate merger.

The staggeringly inhumane and savage portrait that this created is still powerful today. It was this ruthless, clinical evil that has cast the longest and darkest shadow over the 20th Century, with an estimated 8.5 million Jews slaughtered.

But Hitler lost his battle. He was complacent, believing that his Blitzkrieg strategy would see the "Third Reich" marching across the world so quickly that the munitions factories in Germany had ceased operations, only to begin operating again at least 1.5 years after the invasion of Poland. However, the "Third Reich" and Hitler signed their own death warrant the moment they engaged in hostilities with Russia, which leads me to Stalin.

Russia was the most powerful nation in the world during WWII, though weren't as well armed and trained as the other countries. Their army was massive, the vast area and hostile environment of Russia was too large an empire even for the Nazi-Germany-Japanese forces to conquer, and the iron will of Stalin to defeat their enemies, no matter the number of lives lost, were the killing blows to Hitler's quest. Of course, the other Allied nations were vital, and the consequent victory was by all accounts equally deserved for those that saw Hitler's demise.

My point, though obscure, is that Russia under Stalin, until his death, saw the massacre of an estimated 40 million Russians. His contemporary, Mao Tse-Tung (or Zedong, you can decide), is estimated to have slaughtered at least 60 million of his people. In light of these atrocities, the Nazi regime still ranks as the most repugnant, disgraceful and inhumane period of the 20th Century. Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Milosevic, are all just a few examples of the most evil regimes in the previous century. In this context, I find it difficult to find any vestiges of Hitler's "Third Reich" that one could consider as prevailing.

As to these two:
1. Communism was finally crashed into oblivion (the MAIN political goal of Hitler - he always considered communists his greatest enemies and that is why he was so reluctant to attack UK and he even tried to offer them a truce!)

2. Modern space program continued based on V2 missiles and we finally got to the moon with the lead NAZI scientist leading NASA.
As to Communism, Hitler despised the ideology, but it lived after he died. The Cold War, the Cuban Missile crisis, the Police Action in Korea, the Vietnamese War, and the wary approach by the Western world to the rise of China, these were/are all resounding examples of the fear and threat of Communism still haunting the world. It hasn't crashed into oblivion, but lingered and has almost precipitated a possible Third World War.

And Hitler was wary of plans to attack the UK because of the barrier that the Channel provided. To this end, he tried to charm the government of England with any appeasement promise he could concoct. The Prime Minister of England during 1939, Neville Chamberlain, must stand tall amongst the most gullible, naive, and/or foolish politicians that the world has seen. He was close friends with the owner of The Daily Mail, one of London's and England's most circulated newspapers, who was a Nazi sympathiser, and his publications reflected as such, to wit I quote directly from a letter to Lord Rothermere written by Adolf Hitler:
I should like to express the appreciation of countless Germans, who regard me as their spokesman, for the wise and beneficial public support which you have given to a policy that we all hope will contribute to the enduring pacification of Europe. Just as we are fanatically determined to defend ourselves against attack, so do we reject the idea of taking the initiative in bringing about a war. I am convinced that no one who fought in the front trenches during the world war, no matter in what European country, desires another conflict.
You are correct in that the German scientists that were behind the V2 rocket and similar missile and propulsion innovations was a huge factor in the attempt to reach the Moon. What you failed to include was the fact that both the Russians and the Americans were hell-bent on recruiting these scientists, knowing the potential of their work, even though these scientists were to be charged with war crimes. The race to sign up these scientists was furiously paced, and even though they were set to be judged at Nuremberg, the overwhelming nature of the potential behind their work was perceived by both the U.S.A and Russia to be of the highest national urgency.

So, rather than Nazi-Germany winning here, the truth lies more in the opportunistic natures of two nations seeking to out-do each other in the climate of the Cold War. Rightly or wrongly, the scientists weren't perceived as Nazis as such, but rather as a means to an end. Their work survived, but only because of its potential. Those who developed the work were seen as mere vessels, though the scientists were allowed to live in their respective new adopted countries under the cloak of different identities.

As for Mengele, the stories surrounding his escape and subsequent work are almost innumerable. There's even a town in Brazil that is supposed to have the highest rate of twins per head of population in the world, one of the places this abhorrent and despicable man is believed to have fled to, and as he was fascinated with research into twins, there are those who would have the world think that he had left his mark in this town. I cannot show any credible evidence for what happened to Mengele, so I cannot comment on the truth of what happened. Your theory as to what happened to the man is as credible as mine, and it could very well be absolutely true.

I would love any reply, and acknowledge that I am just as fallible as anyone, so please don't hesitate to point out my errors. I am glad that you felt able to raise this topic, knowing that there could be a backlash because WWII is still a large wound as it touched the lives of so many. I know I have personal and deeply upsetting ties with WWII, but I can appreciate that it may be approached in a manner in which people can discuss the subject, trying (though impossible) to be objective.
"We should all be obliged to appear before a board every five years and justify our existence... on pain of liquidation." -- George Bernard Shaw

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